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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspite1 (J) vs AllenK (A)

 
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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/27/2018 9:42:02 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

It's been 15 posts since Warspite posted - think we should let him have a word in his own AAR?

Now it's 16.

(17) But I thought 'newbies' had to wait until the rest of us posted first?

New rule for all threads: No one can post until all pre-2010 members have posted once.

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Post #: 241
RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 4:19:38 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

It's been 15 posts since Warspite posted - think we should let him have a word in his own AAR?
warspite1

To be fair I think every time I don't post (and someone else does) the quality of the thread increases....


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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 4:28:34 AM   
warspite1


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Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		I think the best thing is for me to simply continue with working through the spreadsheet in the hope of trying to understand what is being achieved here.

So to recap. So far all I've done is to fly off Zuiho's torpedo bombers (to Hiroshima) increased the size of this air unit and set the pilots to training (I've reduced the altitude to 1,000 feet as per advice from BBfanboy). I don't know if I need to swap the pilots for more experienced pilots yet or what, but I'll park that for the moment.

CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

So let's continue on....

This time I remember to take a shot of the current air group - Claude from Zuiho - (before any changes are made) so I can (hopefully) better understand what is being achieved here.




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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/28/2018 10:56:17 AM >

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Post #: 243
RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 4:46:32 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

5. Select the Size 12 Claude unit, click the "No resize allowed" text once (changes to "Resize to fit ship"), twice (changes back to "No resize allowed"), and then a third time. This opens a text box - enter the number 30 and then click "OK"

6. Disband the Air Combat TF, look at the Claude unit and you'll see the size has changed to "30"

7. Once again create the Air Combat TF containing only CVL Zuiho (undocked) and transfer the now-Size 30 Claude unit to Hiroshima




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/28/2018 5:12:21 AM >

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Post #: 244
RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 5:13:48 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

8. Divide the Claude Unit




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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/28/2018 5:48:52 AM >

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 5:29:29 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

So having split the Claude unit as instructed I end up with this:

So the unit has been split into 3 x 10 strength sub units - each with 4 serviceable aircraft (and 1 or 2 in reserve) - and with the 16 pilots split 6/5/5 among the sub units.




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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/28/2018 11:29:14 PM >

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Post #: 246
RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 5:49:28 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

8. (cont) upgrade "A" and "C" to Zero (will place 10 Zeros in each subunit)

So if I'm reading this right, there are 28 Zeros in the pool - and I am taking 20 of these for Zuiho A and Zuiho C.



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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/28/2018 6:18:49 AM >

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Post #: 247
RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 6:07:07 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

8. (cont) +5 Claudes to "B" (getting it up to full size)




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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/28/2018 6:20:48 AM >

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 6:18:22 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

8. (cont) +5 Veteran Pilots each for "A" and "C" (so pilots = airframes). In the meantime, add 5 pilots [to B] with low "50" level skills and train them up)


I assume this is a mistake as the are 6 and 5 pilots in A + C respectively. Kull specifically mentions matching pilots to air frames so I will take 4 and 5 pilots instead. However, when I click on getting a Veteran I see there is only one available??? The pilot goes to fighter reserve.



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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/28/2018 6:51:44 AM >

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 6:33:14 AM   
warspite1


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8. (cont) Set all units to Train: 100-Escort, Alt: 10K, Range: 0 (Note: The "B" Unit is not a training unit. Eventually it will upgrade when enough Zeros are available, and can then swap out with one of the Zuiho Kate sub-units, if desired.


I set the training missions as per the above. I now have 10 pilots in Zuiho B but only 6 (soon to be 7) and 5 pilots in A and C. Hopefully someone can explain why I can't get the veteran pilots that Kull suggests I can (please)? If there simply shouldn't be more than one veteran I will fill out with whatever I can.



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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/28/2018 7:01:35 AM >

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



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Post #: 250
RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 7:04:37 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

9. Create another Air Combat TF containing only CVE Hosho
10. Transfer the Size 6 Jean unit from CVE Hosho to CVL Zuiho

Hosho is also at Hiroshima/Kure and so I go through the same steps as above to create the Task Force, select Air Combat, and place Hosho into the newly created TF. I then select "Transfer to Ship" and click on Zuiho. The Jeans are now stationed on Zuiho.




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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/28/2018 7:11:38 AM >

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 7:13:10 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		CVL-CVE-CS Unit Resize Plan

11. Select the Size 6 Jean unit, click the "No resize allowed" text once (changes to "Resize to fit ship"), twice (changes back to "No resize allowed"), and then a third time. This opens a text box - enter the number 30 and then click "OK"

12. Disband Zuiho's Air Combat TF, look at the Jean unit and you'll see the size has changed to "30"

13. Once again create the Air Combat TF containing only CVL Zuiho (undocked)

14. Transfer the Size 9 Claude unit from CVE Hosho to CVL Zuiho

15. Set training for both Hosho units (now aboard Zuiho): Claude = Train: 100-Escort, Alt: 10K, Range: 0, Jean = Train: 100-Naval Attack, Alt: 8K, Range: 0

16. Disband both Air Combat TFs (Zuiho & Hosho are now back in Port)



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/28/2018 7:25:42 AM >

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 7:28:35 AM   
warspite1


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Before I carry on I need to re-cap what I've done, why and what the inability to carry out the instructions means for the various units.


< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/29/2018 12:07:30 AM >

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 1:28:17 PM   
Chickenboy


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Status: offline 		Looks like you may be overlooking a crucial step. The reason for breaking your plane groups up is so that you can go back to 'select pilot' menu, toggle that over to 'replacement' and maximize the number of green pilots in your group for training.

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 2:53:27 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Looks like you may be overlooking a crucial step. The reason for breaking your plane groups up is so that you can go back to 'select pilot' menu, toggle that over to 'replacement' and maximize the number of green pilots in your group for training.
warspite1

I am not sure when these units are supposed to go into action but how long does training take? How 'green' is 'green'?

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 3:34:50 PM   
Bif1961


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Status: offline 		Having people who have been on WITP-WITPAE before 2010 implies seniority implies superiority, which is a misconception, at least on my part.

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 3:39:43 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

Having people who have been on WITP-WITPAE before 2010 implies seniority implies superiority, which is a misconception, at least on my part.

Well spoken. Now if only everyone could be so frank and candid...

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 4:20:48 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Looks like you may be overlooking a crucial step. The reason for breaking your plane groups up is so that you can go back to 'select pilot' menu, toggle that over to 'replacement' and maximize the number of green pilots in your group for training.
warspite1

I am not sure when these units are supposed to go into action but how long does training take? How 'green' is 'green'?


That's a whole 'nuther argument that will take up 6 pages on this AAR.

But, in general, if the purpose of setting up expanded training groups is to...you know...TRAIN them, then they should be written off as frontline combatants in your mind for some months. These training groups will be the way you take green pilots from your replacement pools, train them in the relevant skills and then-later-put them into your frontline units, usually piecemeal.

The training duration varies by main effort expected. Float planes that will be used exclusively for NavSearch may only need 3 months to be decent. Now if you want to cross-train those float plane pilots in ASW or air-to-air combat, then you can double or triple this number.

A6M fighter pilots that will ONLY be conducting air to air related combat may need only a few months. Kate pilots that will also be expected to be proficient at NavSearch, ASW, NavB and NavT will take the longest of the bunch.

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 4:24:36 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

Having people who have been on WITP-WITPAE before 2010 implies seniority implies superiority, which is a misconception, at least on my part.


Good point. Of course, there are examples replete of noobs coming onto the forum and popping off about things that have been 'settled' from the historical point of view as well. Long before they came about and much before they became aware of the historical development of this game, patch impact, arguments ad infinitum pro/con this that and the like.

I'd say that anyone that came on after January 2010 would fit that noob category.

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 4:42:06 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

Having people who have been on WITP-WITPAE before 2010 implies seniority implies superiority, which is a misconception, at least on my part.


Good point. Of course, there are examples replete of noobs coming onto the forum and popping off about things that have been 'settled' from the historical point of view as well. Long before they came about and much before they became aware of the historical development of this game, patch impact, arguments ad infinitum pro/con this that and the like.

I'd say that anyone that came on after January 2010 would fit that noob category.

Sunk or scuttled?

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 7:33:21 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

15. Set training for both Hosho units (now aboard Zuiho): Claude = Train: 100-Escort, Alt: 10K, Range: 0, Jean = Train: 100-Naval Attack, Alt: 8K, Range: 0



Also, on this selection, you need to decide what you want to train these Jeans for. NavT or NavB? You differentiate between the two training modalities by toggling the 'use torpedoes' text on the Jean home page. You don't need to be in range of an Air HQ with torps to train the Jeans, just if you want to use really-o truly-o exploding torpedoes. Moderate altitude settings don't matter (2,000-10,000 ft.) for the training, but don't go 1,000 ft. or below, lest you be training up LowNav instead of conventional attack profiles.

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 8:26:03 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

Having people who have been on WITP-WITPAE before 2010 implies seniority implies superiority, which is a misconception, at least on my part.


Good point. Of course, there are examples replete of noobs coming onto the forum and popping off about things that have been 'settled' from the historical point of view as well. Long before they came about and much before they became aware of the historical development of this game, patch impact, arguments ad infinitum pro/con this that and the like.

I'd say that anyone that came on after January 2010 would fit that noob category.

We all know happens to armies that promote based on seniority, not ability.

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 9:14:45 PM   
Chickenboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

Having people who have been on WITP-WITPAE before 2010 implies seniority implies superiority, which is a misconception, at least on my part.


Good point. Of course, there are examples replete of noobs coming onto the forum and popping off about things that have been 'settled' from the historical point of view as well. Long before they came about and much before they became aware of the historical development of this game, patch impact, arguments ad infinitum pro/con this that and the like.

I'd say that anyone that came on after January 2010 would fit that noob category.

We all know happens to armies that promote based on seniority, not ability.


True dat. Of course, we all know what happens with armies that listen to the pedantic psychobabble of unwashed heathen noobs too.

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/28/2018 10:39:22 PM   
Mike Solli


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Kate pilots that will also be expected to be proficient at NavSearch, ASW, NavB and NavT will take the longest of the bunch.


And then there's the issue of taking those carefully trained Kate pilots and sticking them in a Nell or Betty and watching their experience drop. Then for fun, put that same pilot back in a Kate and watch his experience drop again!

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/29/2018 12:15:14 AM   
warspite1


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Status: offline 		I've gone back to the manual and played around with some of the pilot screens to try and understand how they all inter-connect - but it’s all a bit frustrating. There is plenty of reference to TRACOM in the forums - but not one reference (based on a word search) to this in the manual. There is reference to pilot reserve and 'groups' - sometimes capitalised terms and sometimes not. There are Air Groups, Airgroups and air groups. The manual mentions the Pilot Replacement Screen that pilots in the last month of the training cycle (12 months) become fully trained and added to the pilot pool (uncapitalised term). The next sentence then mentions a Pilot Reserve. The Pilot Reserve Screen shows a list of named pilots who are assigned to groups (but not yet arrived) assigned to a general pilot pool or assigned as training instructors. When I search pilot pool there is reference to a Reserve Pilot pool. There is reference to there being 3 pilot pools.

So using the manual and the in-game screens let’s see if I can make any sense of all this. To try and aid my understanding I will start with a re-cap of what I think I’ve done using Kull’s instructions for his Resize Plan as there are still pilots that need to be found from somewhere.

Zuiho. Started the turn with two air groups (?):



From the manual I see that the (no.) is the Maximum Ready Aircraft at any one time. So in the case of each Hikotai I originally had pilots to match airframes. * Irritatingly I can’t remember what I clicked on to increase the pilots to 16 – I don’t think it was automatic. The instructions were to add 18 veteran pilots but there was only one veteran in the ‘pool’.

** The instruction is to increase the pilots to match the air frames by adding veterans. However because there is only one veteran in the ‘pool’ that has not proved possible. I’ve added this pilot to Zuiho 1A but will take a while to get there.

*** I’ve added 5 pilots to Zuiho 1B.

Kull’s instructions states “The "B" Unit is not a training unit” but also goes on to say “In the meantime, add 5 pilots [to B] with low "50" level skills and train them up”.

So I still have questions about ‘Zuiho’s original aircraft’ but let’s see if I can make sense of the various pools as that may help. But that will have to wait until the morning…..


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< Message edited by warspite1 -- 12/29/2018 12:16:31 AM >

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/29/2018 2:34:59 AM   
Chickenboy


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Status: offline 		The reserve pool is the pool of pilots that are 'dumped' from the training squadrons when they are trained up or otherwise dumped into the reserve pool from defunct, withdrawn or removed groups.

There are three subsets of reserve pilots to which you refer. TRACOM, group reserve and general reserve. For now, forget about group reserve. General reserve is the 'reserve pool' to which I refer above and is the location I draw from for my trained pilot replacements.

TRACOM is another bird entirely. Elite pilots (greater than 80 EXP) from your top groups will be identified as being TRACOM eligible by their color. The text of their names is in yellow. You can select these pilots to be trainers of trainers. The functional value of these pilots is in dispute in the game. What they do is 'pull through' and accelerate untrained pilots in your training pools.

Incoming training pilots start out at a miserable experience level. They exit month 12 at the base experience level set in the game-that's in the manual. For example, USMC pilots may (I'm making this up) exit the 12 month training cycle at experience level of 55 in 1942. This level (for the Allied pilots) generally increases as the war goes on. The Japanese default is for their 12 month grads to decrease over time. An IJAAF 1945 pilot has a poorer experience level than a 1942 one.

So TRACOM pulls / accelerates cadres of pilots along through training school and moves them through the ranks to the default maximum 12 month training value faster. Do you get 'better pilots' with it? No. You get more of them trained to the max rookie deployable value though.

If you are cannibalizing your 12 month grads and have to go back into your 9-12 month classes to scavenge for pilots to fill your front line units, your experience levels suffer. For both sides, there are plenty of pilots coming through early war, unless there's extreme attrition early. However, in the mid-late war, the air war heats up and numbers of even marginally trained pilots may become more an issue.

How many TRACOM leaders in TRACOM do the trick? No one really knows. The 'under the hood' formula has not been shared. Generally speaking, the consensus is that more trainers allocated to TRACOM will tend to pull forward 'more' pilots through the training program once monthly. But it's not forumulaic and it's not set in stone.

I tend to use TRACOM to hedge my bets. I get more pilots through, but I also set aside my best pilots there until they can be put to use in generation III or IV planes rather than get butchered early in the war. As a bonus, I get more pilots pulled through the system. Many players don't use TRACOM at all and swear by it.

Subject change: General Reserve. General reserve is where you put your pilots that you want to use at another time in a frontline unit.

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/29/2018 6:46:18 PM   
rustysi


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Status: offline 		TBH, this whole thing has me baffled. I've never read Kull's proposals, so I've no idea of his thought process or motivation.

For me I'd just like to state how I set my CV's up in the early game.

Firstly I'd like to say all IJN flattops are of value and need to be in some kind of action for the entirety of the expansion of the empire. I even go as far as to use some of my AV's as ersatz CV's. Any and all expansion of IJN air groups should be limited to their LBA units. The exception being to 'fill' out space on CV's, where permitted. Now, most Japanese CV's won't allow changes to their group composition until their first upgrade, which IIRC is in July '42. That being said she has unused space on her flattops. I fill them out with LBA ftrs.

So I set my CVL's to 21/9, ftrs/TB's, and I fill out their pilot numbers from pilots I pull from the IJN LBA units if I've none in the reserve pools. As for their A/C I'll even 'steal' these from LBA units. No flattop should be operating Claude's, Jean's, or Mabel's in combat, beyond the first few days of the war.

Rule one when it comes to flattops, no rookie pilots in any of their groups. This is the Varsity, not trainers. All training for IJN pilots to be done by LBA, and what LBA is not needed as trainers is at the front improving their skills for the 'Varsity'. From there they go to the reserve or directly to the CV's. To go directly to CV's is where you'll pull from the group reserve after you've put those LBA pilots into it.

You'll often 'hear' it said here that its along game. Not for Japan it isn't, her game lasts about 6-8 months. After that she's on the defensive, like it or not. She has no time at the start to go mucking about with training for CV groups.

Anyway it can all get a bit much for those who've not gotten too deeply into the game.

If nothing else just keep rule one in mind.

BTW, I know you've a lot on your plate here, but have you checked out the first few pages of Mike Solli's AAR. Its on-going and can be found on page one of the AAR's. It goes into great detail on executing Japan's set-up. I found it to be an extremely helpful and practical study guide when I started.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 12/29/2018 7:00:40 PM >

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Post #: 267
RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/29/2018 7:03:58 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

And then there's the issue of taking those carefully trained Kate pilots and sticking them in a Nell or Betty and watching their experience drop.




I've learned to avoid this by training these units somewhat differently.

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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

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RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 12/30/2018 3:04:57 PM   
RangerJoe


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Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I read somewhere that the magic number of trainers in TRACOM is 10. That is, that is when an effect is noticed. For Japan, I believe that it is important to get the pilots out of training faster since each trainee pilot uses Heavy Industry (HI) which I believe is 5 per month. This probably reflects all of the damaged and crashed aircraft plus the support needed. Not really having played Japan, I have not experienced this. You can ask an expert JFB fanboy if this information is true.

You can also train fighter pilots and bomber pilots in ground bombing by bombing Chinese units away from any possible Allied fighter coverage. Those pilots will also gain in experience as well as the specific skill. A good use for Chinese units that you have trapped in the open where you have closed off all hexsides so they can't leave while leaving enough units there to keep them from winning a ground battle so they can leave. Also, bomb cut off Chinese units (Zombies aka walking dead) so they are even easier to kill on the ground so they won't cut your supply lines. Every attack, even bombing without AAA firing, raises their supply consumption by 10% which if they are cut off or even just under supplied, just making them easier to destroy.

From a NOOB

Joe

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(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 269
RE: Thought the real Japanese were incompetent? warspit... - 1/2/2019 7:01:37 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

I read somewhere that the magic number of trainers in TRACOM is 10. That is, that is when an effect is noticed. For Japan, I believe that it is important to get the pilots out of training faster since each trainee pilot uses Heavy Industry (HI) which I believe is 5 per month. This probably reflects all of the damaged and crashed aircraft plus the support needed. Not really having played Japan, I have not experienced this. You can ask an expert JFB fanboy if this information is true.


Not exactly an 'expert', but have some knowledge.

Yes, 10 is the number, or better said groups of 10. So each 'nationality' (IJA, IJN for Japan) needs at least 10 to get the benefit. More are better, but TBH intended or not the result seems to be much curtailed from the original version. Its still a useful place to keep some better pilots for the better later model planes.

That being said there may even be a problem with the practice. It seems some here have reported massive increases in the quality of pilot experience in the training pools with large numbers of pilots in the TRACOM pool. AFAIK this is not WAD. I personally have yet to determine if this is so, and am partly continuing my current AI game to try and do at least a limited test.

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(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 270
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