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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Uncommon Valor - Campaign for the South Pacific >> Supplying Outlying Bases

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Supplying Outlying Bases - 6/16/2003 6:18:30 PM

spruance

Posts: 15
Joined: 5/9/2003
From: Brighton, East Sussex
Status: offline

Consider the following scenario:

It is late May 1942, playing as the Allies, Yorktown sunk, Lexington heavily damaged at Coral Sea, Port Moresby has
taken a pounding and its planes are largely grounded due
to runway damage/fatigue etc.

I would like to try and hold PM, and have just put
ashore a landing force at Lunga.

Now these two decisions may be folly or they may not be,
but I am wondering how I keep the forces at these two bases
in supply.

I have no barges yet, and I have managed to get one
supply convoy through to PM, but I think it was only
my good fortune with the weather that prevented the convoy
being creamed by Japanese LBA.

I wonder if lack of carriers makes trying to hold these bases futile.

Also general advice on the best way to supply bases in the face
of enemy air, especially PM.

Comments?

Post #: 1

Supplying PM - 6/16/2003 6:44:32 PM

rich91a

Posts: 51
Joined: 7/27/2002
From: Sydney
Status: offline

Supplying PM whilst it is under heavy Japanese LBA / Bombardment attack is quite straightforwards:

Medium term:

- Max port size at Cairns
- Max airfield at Cooktown
- Max port at Cooktown
- 250+ Air Support at Cairns at Cooktown
- Run oil and supply convoys Brisbane > Townsville
- Run oil and supply convoys Townsville > Cairns
- Run supply convoys Townsville > Cooktown

Short term:

- Subs in the 3 hexes that form the Milne Bay gap.
- Recon / PBYS at Cooktown and Cairns.
- The above help warn of incoming IJN Bombardment tfs.
- Form 3 fast trans tfs of 4 destroyers each.
- Run these constantly taking supplies and/or troops from Cairns to PM.
- When these reach 30 sys, send back to Pearl.
- Replace with DDs arriving at Noumea.

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 2

- 6/16/2003 7:14:58 PM

LargeSlowTarget

Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline

To prevent bomardment, station subs on the route from the GG gap to PM and mine the hell out of PM.
Regarding supply runs, I am quite content with my single-ship TFs of small AKs shuttling between Cairns and PM (respectively GG, which I managed to hold). Each day I send out one ship to each base - and although they tend to bunch up two and three at a time at their destination, enemy LBA reaction is negligible. Single ships are hard to spot and perhaps not deemed worth sending out a strike. Even if this happens, only one ship can get hurt. The amount of supplies is enough to support a Division-sized unit and a few fighters.
For troop movements to PM I recommend DDs on fast transport mission based at Cairns, or - if you want to take the risk - use small APs with 'load troops only', interrupt loading after one day and send them out half-full for a speedy unloading at PM. Maybe add a lone SC to distract enemy subs or to act as rescue ship in case this didn't work.
I use the big transports to shuttle supplies and troops between Brisbane and Cairns. For fuel I have tankers running the same route. The medium AKs/APs are busy in the Noumea-Lunga area. All this works well enough for me.

_____________________________

AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 3

Re: Supplying Outlying Bases - 6/16/2003 7:31:03 PM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by spruance
[B]Consider the following scenario:

It is late May 1942, playing as the Allies, Yorktown sunk, Lexington heavily damaged at Coral Sea, Port Moresby has
taken a pounding and its planes are largely grounded due
to runway damage/fatigue etc.

I would like to try and hold PM, and have just put
ashore a landing force at Lunga.

Now these two decisions may be folly or they may not be,
but I am wondering how I keep the forces at these two bases
in supply.

I have no barges yet, and I have managed to get one
supply convoy through to PM, but I think it was only
my good fortune with the weather that prevented the convoy
being creamed by Japanese LBA.

I wonder if lack of carriers makes trying to hold these bases futile.

Also general advice on the best way to supply bases in the face
of enemy air, especially PM.

Comments? [/B][/QUOTE]

You don't say which scenario you play and whether it's against AI or PBEM? You also don't say whether you inflicted any damages to IJN CVs?

It's fairly easy to supply PM with AKs. Long range Bettys and Nells won't attack if the conwoy is well protected by PM CAP. So take care to protect it with CAP.

Problem with PM is not supply, it's that you may not have enough ground troops to repel the dedicated Japanese invasion force, so that's your main problem.

As for Lunga, it depends on what you hoped to achieve by putting troops there? If you sent them there "to stay" - forget about it. I usually send some troops to Lunga early in the game if I have the opportunity, but with the SOLE purpose of slowing down IJN invasion plans, and forcing the opponent to mount "full scale" invasion of Lunga. Otherwise, he'll take it with one of those garrison units, unopposed, and build it to level 4 airbase by mid-june, and I don't like that.

So basically I sacrifice some ground troops at Lunga to slow down the enemy invasion plans. But against experienced opponent you will surely lose Lunga and have to retake it later, no point is "seriously" garrisoning it so early in the game.

O.

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 4

- 6/16/2003 9:06:46 PM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

Oleg is dead right about Lunga.

Not to mention early as the USN, you barely have enough forcesto keep Luganville and Efate against a skilled/aggressive player.

Going on the offensive means having adequate forward supplies and fuel stocks, as well as the shiping to move them.

In May 1942, the Allies do not have adequate AP/AKs to go on the offensive, or anything else for that matter.

You are buying time against the IJN onslaught until you start getting forces in the Late July time frame.

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 5

Re: Re: Supplying Outlying Bases - 6/16/2003 9:39:23 PM

spruance

Posts: 15
Joined: 5/9/2003
From: Brighton, East Sussex
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oleg Mastruko
[B]You don't say which scenario you play and whether it's against AI or PBEM? You also don't say whether you inflicted any damages to IJN CVs?

It's fairly easy to supply PM with AKs. Long range Bettys and Nells won't attack if the conwoy is well protected by PM CAP. So take care to protect it with CAP.

Problem with PM is not supply, it's that you may not have enough ground troops to repel the dedicated Japanese invasion force, so that's your main problem.

As for Lunga, it depends on what you hoped to achieve by putting troops there? If you sent them there "to stay" - forget about it. I usually send some troops to Lunga early in the game if I have the opportunity, but with the SOLE purpose of slowing down IJN invasion plans, and forcing the opponent to mount "full scale" invasion of Lunga. Otherwise, he'll take it with one of those garrison units, unopposed, and build it to level 4 airbase by mid-june, and I don't like that.

So basically I sacrifice some ground troops at Lunga to slow down the enemy invasion plans. But against experienced opponent you will surely lose Lunga and have to retake it later, no point is "seriously" garrisoning it so early in the game.

O. [/B][/QUOTE]

Playing one of the smaller scenarios v. API (forget what number)
mainly as a learning exercise.

I thought the AI was being a bit cautious so I took the opportunity to put some troops into Lunga, exactly as you say,
to slow him up.

As for PM, I am defending it to the hilt mainlu to see what sort
of force the Japanese need to take it and what strategy they adopt as it looks quite a stronghold to me.

btw, IJN has its two fleet carriers (sho and zu) largely intact.

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 6

- 6/17/2003 4:11:39 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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Bah, let PM fall, it gives you the perfect training target for getting your hopeless B-25/26 aircrews some skills making them lethal weapons later in the game when you need them.

PM is a handicap for the Allies, with it's malaria and exposure to constant harrassment. Much simpler to take it back afterwards, when you have more then enough troops.

Look at PM & Gili Gili as Japan traps. Troops go in but they don't come back out! Troops Japan ties up here cannot be used against you on the important side of the map.

The very same invasion force required to take PM could turn for Townsville instead if you have shuttled your troops up to PM, and that is a place you NEVER want to loose as kicking Japan out of a non-malaria base is nearly impossible.

Always remember, you have 600 odd turns to beat Japan. Japan has 85 turns to win the game before the odds go downhill. Troops not protecting one of the key Japan targets of which PM is not one are not being used well. This may work against the AI, but it will certainly not work against a fellow human.

The 12 Allied INF units need to be in Brisbase, Noumea, Townsville, Rockhampton. All other bases are expendable. Luganville, being another malaria base is much simpler to invade and take then to attempt to hold. Strangely, the odds in the game favour the attacker, not the defender, as all the attacker has to do is bring 2:1 worth of stuff and you are always going to loose no matter what you do. By forcing this type of conflict, the loss rates of the required 10 regiments to take one of these key bases means that you will be killing him on the beachs as he simply can not unload troops fast enough to combat your attacks.

Land combat is quite simply a numbers game. Have the numbers and you automatically win. Simply put, the key to winning as the Allies is within your grasp within the first couple of days. It is a sure thing on turn 22 when the 3rd Division shows up and gives you an extra regiment per base in Aussieland.

Now, some folks will debate that playing like this is boring. I would point out that the 20,000 grunts you will get killed by being Mr. Agressive might disagree. ;)

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 7

- 6/17/2003 5:24:19 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]Bah, let PM fall, it gives you the perfect training target for getting your hopeless B-25/26 aircrews some skills making them lethal weapons later in the game when you need them.

PM is a handicap for the Allies, with it's malaria and exposure to constant harrassment. Much simpler to take it back afterwards, when you have more then enough troops.

Look at PM & Gili Gili as Japan traps. Troops go in but they don't come back out! Troops Japan ties up here cannot be used against you on the important side of the map.

The very same invasion force required to take PM could turn for Townsville instead if you have shuttled your troops up to PM, and that is a place you NEVER want to loose as kicking Japan out of a non-malaria base is nearly impossible.

Always remember, you have 600 odd turns to beat Japan. Japan has 85 turns to win the game before the odds go downhill. Troops not protecting one of the key Japan targets of which PM is not one are not being used well. This may work against the AI, but it will certainly not work against a fellow human.

The 12 Allied INF units need to be in Brisbase, Noumea, Townsville, Rockhampton. All other bases are expendable. Luganville, being another malaria base is much simpler to invade and take then to attempt to hold. Strangely, the odds in the game favour the attacker, not the defender, as all the attacker has to do is bring 2:1 worth of stuff and you are always going to loose no matter what you do. By forcing this type of conflict, the loss rates of the required 10 regiments to take one of these key bases means that you will be killing him on the beachs as he simply can not unload troops fast enough to combat your attacks.

Land combat is quite simply a numbers game. Have the numbers and you automatically win. Simply put, the key to winning as the Allies is within your grasp within the first couple of days. It is a sure thing on turn 22 when the 3rd Division shows up and gives you an extra regiment per base in Aussieland.

Now, some folks will debate that playing like this is boring. I would point out that the 20,000 grunts you will get killed by being Mr. Agressive might disagree. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]

Haven't we been down this road before Mr Frag?

I clearly believe that defense of PM is important in both making the IJN expend the resources and buy time.

It takes a good IJN player to take PM. It ain't happening against a decent PBEM opponent easily or painlessly.

Make the IJN pay for PM. So much so that the subsequent invasion of Australia is postponed or cancelled. (fill the bottom of theCoral Sea with IJN APs)

Yea, in scenario 19 I may be inclined to agree, but not in 17. And no way would I concede PM against the AI!

And numbers are a great think for making estimates, but it is difficult to factor in game play.

And the underlying assumption is that you are talking about no variable reinforcement. Remebering that many people play with variable reinforcement, that throws a wrench in you numbers.

PM can be defended in scenario 17. I have never had it taken from me in 10 PBEM games as the Allies except in the one SC 19 I played as USN. Even in the SC 19, I extracted a HUGE price for PM..;)

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 8

- 6/17/2003 6:01:46 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline

Yep, been here, done that :D

When someone looses as the Allied player after following my advice, let me know will ya ;)

You want PM, feel free to keep it as it doesn't help Japan's cause at all. Japan needs a non-malaria base to win the game. You stock PM, I just divert to Townsville anyways as you can't be strong in all places. If not Townsville then Brisbane or Noumea, you only have 12 INF units and I can count ;)

Wonderful the way UV's air combat targeting works. As long as I keep my CV task force exactly 1 hex away from my invasion fleet, you'll NEVER attack my fleet until after it has finished unloading. Townsville has better beer anyways, too hot and humid in PM :p

The key issue is to strike quickly before those useless USAF boys can get themselves trained up to hit things. As the game starts, they are incapable of hitting a moving ship.

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 9

- 6/17/2003 6:19:16 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]Yep, been here, done that :D

When someone looses as the Allied player after following my advice, let me know will ya ;)

You want PM, feel free to keep it as it doesn't help Japan's cause at all. Japan needs a non-malaria base to win the game. You stock PM, I just divert to Townsville anyways as you can't be strong in all places. If not Townsville then Brisbane or Noumea, you only have 12 INF units and I can count ;)

Wonderful the way UV's air combat targeting works. As long as I keep my CV task force exactly 1 hex away from my invasion fleet, you'll NEVER attack my fleet until after it has finished unloading. Townsville has better beer anyways, too hot and humid in PM :p

The key issue is to strike quickly before those useless USAF boys can get themselves trained up to hit things. As the game starts, they are incapable of hitting a moving ship. [/B][/QUOTE]

Assumption: CV on CV battle in first week of May in Coral Sea favors IJN. (Not always the case. Current PBEM game started in 2.3 had IJN CVs combat ineffective after battle, with each side losing a CV. No CV force left to cover transports, invasion turned back;))

Assumption: Allies improve PM. (not neccessary other than the fortification level)

Assumption: Allies don't reinforce Townsville (only need one brigade of the 7th to reinforce PM initially, the rest can go to Townsville)

As for following your advice and losing, someone else will have to weigh in on that one. All I know, is it works for me defending PM .
;)

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 10

- 6/17/2003 6:36:25 AM

Oleg Mastruko

Posts: 4921
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline

I am with denisonh on this, every base is worth defending. Don't let the Japs take ANY base without serious effort.

When I play as Japs, I prefer having the inactive and cautious, waiting USN player as opponent (others prefer active and aggressive USN, I know).

As IJN I simply won't stop taking bases unless you stop me, or make very serious effort to stop me. You think I am going to stop if you evacuate PM and let me have it without a fight? No way. You bought no time that way. Australia here I come. You MUST fight, even if it means losing. You're buying time fighting.

And BTW, under 2.3 there are NO guarantees that IJN will win any serious battle early on. If USN challenges IJN, and wins - the campaign is won right then and there. IF USN challenges IJN and loses - campaign is still not lost for USN.

But if USN decides not to challenge IJN advance, and evacuates from PM, chances are the Japs will pick the battle later on, and instead of having "big battle for PM" you'll have "big battle for Townsville or Efate". What do you prefer? And what if you lose that battle as USN?

Every base is worth defending, if only with token defence. And PM is not only "worth defending" it is very "defendable", especially in #17.

O.

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 11

- 6/17/2003 7:44:02 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
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[QUOTE]...we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender...[/QUOTE]

Winston Churchill,4 June, 1940[IMG]http://www.winstonchurchill.org/speechwsc.jpg[/IMG]

Never say die:D

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 12

Port Moresby - 6/17/2003 8:52:51 AM

mogami

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From: You can't get here from there
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Hi, In Scenario 17 the Japanese will have 60k combat troops with transport. If they can get to PM they will take it. Any Allied troops sent there will not be defending Townsville Rockhampton or Brisbane. The Japanese are going to take one of these bases if they can get there. Sending troops to hopeless positions does not "slow" down the Japanese nor does it "make them fight"
It only gives away victory points.

Fight where and when you can defeat the Japanese. Never give up a base versus the AI no matter what the situation. Against a human there are things you don't know (like how much and how soon he is getting reinforcements) if you can't hold without risking one of the Auto victory bases. Save the material. If he comes to Noumea it's a long way back if he loses. If you go to Lunga you've done for him what he can only do with difficulty (You shortened his supply line, his turn around time for TF and moved into escorted LBA range. You have to link your bases. You don't belong on Lunga unless Irau is providing aircover. You don't belong on Irau unless Wunpuko is up and running.

And you absolutely have no business making any offensive before you have located and neutralized his carriers and as many of his heavy fleet units as possible.
My view may have become jaded I'm in my 14th PBEM as Allied scenario 19 Japan 200 USN 100 percent ship commitment. I've gotten to where I hate losing a subchaser for no good reason.
I don't move a ground unit without having a solid reason. And I spend a lot of time rescuing units that begin in hopeless positions. But you still have to be able to hit the enemy when and where you can. Just make sure every risk is worth it. And stay alert, I tend to get warm fuzzy feeling about a location right about the time 10 IJN CV/CVL are turning into the wind 200 miles away.

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 13

- 6/17/2003 9:02:41 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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Gee, wasn't that his prep speech just before Operation Sea Lion invaded the rock and sent the english packing to that criminal outpost that we fight over in our game?

Oh but for the luck of the english coupled with german stupidity eh? ;)

Funny how I beat GG's Battle of Britain game in 3 game days and he had to issue a patch cranking up all the AA levels at the power plants! :D

Germany had the ability to win Europe completely, but they frittered it away with stupid commanders. Lets not start *that* debate, as we all know that the USA was quite willing to trade with whomever won the war not having much real interest in the English. Hey, how many years left on the payments for Lend Lease equipment? Yea, we'll save you, but bring your chequebook :p

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 14

- 6/17/2003 9:05:06 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
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[QUOTE] tend to get warm fuzzy feeling about a location right about the time 10 IJN CV/CVL are turning into the wind 200 miles away.[/QUOTE]

Hahahahahahaha!!! You know you have played too much when you can feel the CV strike the turn BEFORE it hits!

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 15

- 6/17/2003 9:35:42 AM

kentaggie

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From: Katy, Tx
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Boys I am here to tell you, it doesn't matter how many men and planes you can pack into PM, its about keeping them supplied. In #17 with 100% for both sides at the beggining of June, the Japs have the means for a good player to isolate and take PM. At that ponit He has 9 or 10 flattops vs 4 or 5 US - not good. And you know what he does? He parks 7 hexes away from PM and pounds you with 180 Kates at 8k. This, of course, is coupled with 2 or 3 bombardment TF's slingin' shells around, too.

This causes your supply to plummet from 40K to 1K in about a week and a half. No supplies, no offensive bomber missions, and your ground troops start eating grass and fighting like crap. And at this point you can't pull out. Now I'm not saying to give it up without a fight, you must make the Japs pay. But at the end of it I don't want much sitting there to be sacrificed for something I can easily replace in 6 months. I will fortify Australia and Noumea and if you want to fight down there, as we say here in Texas "come get some!"

_____________________________

"What in the wide, wide world of sports is a going on here?"

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 16

- 6/17/2003 9:54:49 AM

denisonh

Posts: 2194
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From: Upstate SC
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Not everybody is the glutton for punishment that you are Mog:p . I would not even consider defending PM under those circumstances. But I talk of Scenario 17, and that is a different animal. I would think with what you have experienced, Mog, that you are exhibiting signs of "shell shock" or "war weariness". (Like the WWI veteran troops who they couldn't get to "go over the top")

But like anything else, the important things to consider when you consider your COAs as the Alied player revolves around what your opponent is doing. Responding the the IJN threat is an important part of being the Allied player.

Gauging your opponents actions are important to making your own decisions as the Alied player.

As the IJN, I can take PM, no problem. I have done so in PBEM. But it is no sure thing and has to be carefully planned and executed. Even then, doing so without loss is difficult.

And a favorable exchange in the first CV battle helps as well.

I do not say that it is a "sure fire way to win". Never made that claim. But in a scenario 17, I believe it is worth while to "put up a fight" for PM. And I will continue to do so as long as it works for me.

I leave the debating over Germany and England piece to others. I only quote Churchill to communicate I ain't leaving PM without a fight.

_____________________________

"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 17

Alarms - 6/17/2003 9:56:30 AM

mogami

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mr.Frag
[B]Hahahahahahaha!!! You know you have played too much when you can feel the CV strike the turn BEFORE it hits! [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, I'd be happy if I always listened to those little whispers telling me to do simple things. Base with 150 fighters "psst put up all the CAP NOW!!!!" but I look, sneeze, check the weather forcast and assign 2 groups to 30 percent CAP. Next turn 70 enemy fighters escorting 200 bombers level the port. I oppose with 16-24 fighters. But I sat for 20 minutes pondering what to do. What makes me upset is it costs nothing to listen to the warnings. If nothing happens you stand down. However it would be nice someday to listen and have the enemy think "How did he do that"

Just today 3 IJN aircombat TF's with many CV and CVL (I think I counted a total of 10 carriers 7 CV 3 CVL but you know how spotting is. Chased my 4 USN CV in 2 TF across the Coral Sea. I swung up by Santa Cruz before finally after 5 days getting to 4 hexes from Noumea. The Japanese player was actually using the react option trying to catch me.

I thought, he is going to come right on down to Noumea after me.
I should move 10 hexes south of Noumea to make certain and allow all the LBA a whack at him. But instead I went to Noumea.
Next day 2 of my carriers were damaged. The Japs lost over 100 bombers. So I put the ships into port. I unloaded the airgroups from the damaged carriers.

Now at least 3 of the enemy CV had been hit. and they lost over 100 planes. I figured he is going to go home now. The voice said "OK but unload those other two carriers if your not going to make a TF tonight."

"Bhah" I said back "Too much work, thats 6 mouse clicks per carrier"

Next day the enemy had moved still closer. All 4 of My CV were hit again.

Now I didn't lose any of them. They are going to go to Pearl Harbor for AA upgrades and extended shore leave. I don't know the damage to any of the enemy CV. But my point is some day I will learn to listen to my worries and stop playing myself. (I tend to discount things I would not do. But I'm learning I might be really conservative when it comes to taking risks)

_____________________________

I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 18

- 6/17/2003 7:39:39 PM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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I'm watching your new Dadman AAR and you can just read between the lines on it ... It reads just like that ...

"Grr, I knew he would do that!"

"Darn, he did it!"

"Gee, here we go again..."

:D

React to CV Airgroups are always enough to scare the pants off ya when they do those max range jumps to land right beside you. Everytime I see that react move, my hair gets goes a shade more grey. Trick is to milk it for all it's worth then run like the dickens for friendly waters.

It will be interesting to see how dramatic the difference is in WitP with reduced Fatigue levels and greater distances as right now a Chase to the gates of Noumea with some CA's to leach fuel off on the way home is completely possible. How have they dealt with it with the hex doubling as what, max CV wing range is now 5?

(in reply to spruance)

Post #: 19

- 6/19/2003 12:39:50 AM

Snigbert

Posts: 2956
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From: Worcester, MA. USA
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[B]The very same invasion force required to take PM could turn for Townsville instead if you have shuttled your troops up to PM, and that is a place you NEVER want to loose as kicking Japan out of a non-malaria base is nearly impossible.[/B]

I disagree, malaria or absence of malaria effects both sides equally. Why is Townsville harder to recapture than Port Moresby? You have land access via major roads, you have it surrounded by friendly bases with LBA, it's much more difficult for the Japanese to resupply. So what if the Japanese troops aren't suffering from Malaria, the Aussies aren't either.

[B]Bah, let PM fall, it gives you the perfect training target for getting your hopeless B-25/26 aircrews some skills making them lethal weapons later in the game when you need them.[/B]

They can get just as good training launching from PM to attack Lae, GG, Buna, Dobadura, etc. I'm not giving up PM, uh-uh, no way. :)

[B]PM is a handicap for the Allies, with it's malaria and exposure to constant harrassment. Much simpler to take it back afterwards, when you have more then enough troops.[/B]

If it is possible to hold the base (which it is), then every Japanese attack on PM is wearing down the Japanese player just as fast as it is wearing down the Allies. But the Japanese player gets nothing from it, the Allies keep a major base in a critical area.

[B]Troops not protecting one of the key Japan targets of which PM is not one are not being used well.[/B]

I cant agree with that assessment, I'd say that after Brisbane and Noumea, PM is the base the Allies want to hold onto the most.

[B]Strangely, the odds in the game favour the attacker, not the defender, as all the attacker has to do is bring 2:1 worth of stuff and you are always going to loose no matter what you do. [/B]

There are many other factors affecting the outcome of a land battle. Supplies, armor, number of guns, fortification, combat stance, disruption level, fatigue level, command infrastructure bonuses, unit cohesiveness, etc.

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Post #: 20

- 6/19/2003 1:37:23 AM

Mr.Frag

Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
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[QUOTE]There are many other factors affecting the outcome of a land battle. Supplies, armor, number of guns, fortification, combat stance, disruption level, fatigue level, command infrastructure bonuses, unit cohesiveness, etc.[/QUOTE]

Yes, all of which apply EQUALLY to both sides so they are not determining factors unless playing against a newbie.

Supplies: Eliminated by bombardment/air attack. Brought by transports for attackers. I have NEVER launched an attack that wasn't over long before supplies ran out.

Armor: None in the game during the time period PM will fall. Non-Factor

Guns: Both sides have access to these assets, Japan generally has more being that THEY are attacking and have to bring 2:1 worth of ODDS. Northern Command CD units can not be relocated to PM.

Fortification: Quickly eliminated by (a) enough troops to supply 2:1 odds and (b) combat engineers. Since PM is generally only going to be a 4, it vanishes almost instantly.

Combat stance: Attacker only posture. (there is no Shock Defend option)

Disruption/Fatigue: Quickly dealt with by ground attack and equalizing quickly after a round or two of ground combat. Proper odds results in low disruption rates on attacker side. Misuse of Shock attack seems to be the culprit here.

HQ Bonus: applies equally to both sides.

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Post #: 21

Auto Victory - 6/19/2003 5:37:45 AM

mogami

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Hi, Port Moresby is not an auto victory base. You can take it back.
Townsville you can't (because the game will end before you get the units to take it back with. The Allies will greatly outnumber the Japanese but not before 1 Jan 43. If the Japanese capture Brisbane/Rockhampton or Townsville they also capture 50k supply and fuel (auto victory hexes need to have twice the required supply present to trigger the auto victory. Luganville and Efate suffer from not having supply move there automaticly. So the Japanese will need to transport it. Townsville is out of range of medium bombers. (So the Japanese only need to keep Rockhampton closed. )
You'll miss every extra Brigade/RCT that dies defending Port Moresby. Of course every thing changes if you can sink the IJN CV early and have one or two your self. But unless you defeat the IJN moving troops you can't spare to a base you can't supply is foolish.

(Go read "Arto/Mogami" AAR. He captured PM on May 23 (and I had reinforced it. I was able to evac the troops from Lea Lea but he still captured Townsville on 11 July)

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Post #: 22

- 6/19/2003 6:28:27 AM

Snigbert

Posts: 2956
Joined: 1/27/2002
From: Worcester, MA. USA
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Alright, let's say you leave Townsville and parts of Australia undefended so you can reinforce Port Moresby. All you have there is one regiment of Northern Command and the Japanese decide to take Townsville.

Now, either they are going to take PM first or be riskier and and just go directly for Townsville.

The second scenario, if Townsville falls you have 7th ID, 3rd ID, New Guinea Force in PM and 32nd ID, 41st ID, 6th ID, 1st Mar Div, 2nd Mar Div and about 5 Armor Bns... within the first 6 months, which would still give you a month remaining before Jan 1 43 in which to use these forces to recapture Townsville. If they bypass PM all of these will be available. 24 RCTs plus armor support to take out 10-12 Japanese Regiments. Sounds like it will work.

However, they might try to take PM first in which case you have 3 divisions in PM. New Guinea Force, 7th ID and 3rd ID. If they capture the base you are going to be in big trouble in Australia, however with this amount of force I haven't lost PM in a game yet and I still contend that you can hold PM indefinitely.

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Post #: 23

PM - 6/19/2003 6:54:04 AM

mogami

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snigbert
[B]Alright, let's say you leave Townsville and parts of Australia undefended so you can reinforce Port Moresby. All you have there is one regiment of Northern Command and the Japanese decide to take Townsville.

Now, either they are going to take PM first or be riskier and and just go directly for Townsville.

The second scenario, if Townsville falls you have 7th ID, 3rd ID, New Guinea Force in PM and 32nd ID, 41st ID, 6th ID, 1st Mar Div, 2nd Mar Div and about 5 Armor Bns... within the first 6 months, which would still give you a month remaining before Jan 1 43 in which to use these forces to recapture Townsville. If they bypass PM all of these will be available. 24 RCTs plus armor support to take out 10-12 Japanese Regiments. Sounds like it will work.

However, they might try to take PM first in which case you have 3 divisions in PM. New Guinea Force, 7th ID and 3rd ID. If they capture the base you are going to be in big trouble in Australia, however with this amount of force I haven't lost PM in a game yet and I still contend that you can hold PM indefinitely. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, PM will be gone long before you can move 3 Divisions there (most Japs capture PM late May early June. The 3rd Aus Div has not even arrived on map. The only SOPAC division is the Americal and you need it to hold Noumea.

Who gives you so much time (I mean what are they doing instead?) There is no question whether Japan can capture PM and one of the Auto victory bases if they can move the troops (They have the troops)

Lets start a game. You win if you can get 9 Bde/RCT to PM before I capture it.

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Post #: 24

- 6/19/2003 7:11:19 AM

Snigbert

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From: Worcester, MA. USA
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[B]Lets start a game. You win if you can get 9 Bde/RCT to PM before I capture it.[/B]

I would be overloaded, but I want to try it anyway ;P

In the three games I am playing as Allies at the moment, none of them have captured PM in the May/June time frame...evidently it is the issue of moving troops. I've had CVs and surface ships which could threaten their movement in all three games. In the one game where my opponent did manage to land at PM in August, it is too late for him to take it.

Are you playing a lot of people where you defeat their Carrier forces soundly enough that they are no threat to your transports going after PM so early in the game?

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Post #: 25

Tease - 6/19/2003 7:39:46 AM

mogami

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Snigbert
[B][B]Lets start a game. You win if you can get 9 Bde/RCT to PM before I capture it.[/B]

I would be overloaded, but I want to try it anyway ;P

In the three games I am playing as Allies at the moment, none of them have captured PM in the May/June time frame...evidently it is the issue of moving troops. I've had CVs and surface ships which could threaten their movement in all three games. In the one game where my opponent did manage to land at PM in August, it is too late for him to take it.

Are you playing a lot of people where you defeat their Carrier forces soundly enough that they are no threat to your transports going after PM so early in the game? [/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, Stop teasing me. (LOL the USN prevents IJN from moving to PM) I dream of finding the Lexington and Yorktown on the route to Port Moresby. (depending on the varible reinforcement schdule (it can kill the Japanese in scenario 17) The IJN can send 4-6 CV and 1-3 CVL out while the USN has only the 2 it starts with. Both need AA upgrades (as do all the escorts) and the fighter groups are undersized. In scenario 19 you can "Forget about it" The IJN will send at least 6 CV before the end of June. (The USN might have 4 CV by then and this is where I think the USN should fight. But only if they sent Lexington and Yorktown back to PH on turn 1 (there is a 38 day (+- 2-4 days) turn around.
making Lex and York return about the same time Enterprise and Hornet show up. (and all the CA/DD sent back on turn 1 give good AA escorts)
But the Allies will only have 4-5 Bde on PM at most (Sometimes I let them move unopposed to PM) 5x115=575 combat factors plus
another 50 in other units 625 total. This means I only need to bring 9 of the 12 Rgts (and a few engineers) They don't even all have to land at once. (get 4 ashore and then its over)

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Post #: 26

- 6/19/2003 8:15:27 AM

Snigbert

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[B]Hi, Stop teasing me. (LOL the USN prevents IJN from moving to PM) I dream of finding the Lexington and Yorktown on the route to Port Moresby. (depending on the varible reinforcement schdule (it can kill the Japanese in scenario 17) The IJN can send 4-6 CV and 1-3 CVL out while the USN has only the 2 it starts with. Both need AA upgrades (as do all the escorts) and the fighter groups are undersized. In scenario 19 you can "Forget about it" The IJN will send at least 6 CV before the end of June. (The USN might have 4 CV by then and this is where I think the USN should fight. But only if they sent Lexington and Yorktown back to PH on turn 1 (there is a 38 day (+- 2-4 days) turn around.[/B]

What I often do is, send the Lex and York on a sortie to intercept a tf on its way to PM in the first week of May. If I dont get in a Coral Sea (at which point there will only be 2 IJN CV and 1 CVL) I return them to Noumea and send them to PH for refit. Then in mid June I get 4-5 CVs back and am ready to roll again. If you are smart you attack PM in the last week of May or first week of June (which you have obviously figured out) :)

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Post #: 27

- 6/20/2003 12:17:12 PM

Philwd

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From: Arizona
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Hi Snigbert,
[QUOTE]In the three games I am playing as Allies at the moment, none of them have captured PM in the May/June time frame...evidently it is the issue of moving troops. [/QUOTE]

If you are playing with highly variable reinforcements your opponents may have not gotten the troops yet. In my current game I didn't get the 2nd and 38th IJA until ~ turn 55( I was facing a full division of troops so I needed both). I took PM 7/5(it takes a lloonngg time to get troops from Truk to PM). Because of the late troops I may have already lost.

Quark

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Post #: 28