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Helicopter pathfind - 1/6/2019 6:34:14 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1304
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline 		One of the things I've been working on lately is advanced helicopter pathfinding. I think they should avoid tall objects such as buildings and trees.





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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/6/2019 6:57:40 PM   
22sec

 

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Status: offline 		What about terrain elevation? Won’t do any good if they are avoiding y’all objects only to fly over high ground just because it lacks y’all objects.

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/6/2019 7:12:20 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1304
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 22sec

What about terrain elevation? Won’t do any good if they are avoiding y’all objects only to fly over high ground just because it lacks y’all objects.


It depends. Behind a house or dense forest the helicopter is safe, even if it's on top of a hill.


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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/6/2019 7:29:52 PM   
Sabre21


Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline 		Do you take into account different flight modes for the helicopters? NOE vs Contour vs low level.


Also can helicopters within the game utilize battle positions where they fire from while at a hover?


Can Engagement Areas (EA) be pre-planned where ground, air (both helicopter and fixed wing), and arty are coordinated to engage targets in a timed manner?


Back in the 80's and 90's we used a 1 minute clock, something we practiced quite often. As an example the EA might be several hundred meters by a couple hundred meters along an expected threat route of march. As the threat entered the EA, the mission commander (ground or air) would call in arty suppressive fire. The arty time to target was known to awaiting attack helicopters hidden in various battle positions. They would unmask and fire missiles at ADA, C&C, and lead and trail tanks usually in that order. The missiles and arty would strike just about the same time. Ground forces would then engage with several volleys and then fall back to alternate positions as would the attack helicopters. A-10's would then roll in on the target followed by another artillery barrage to cover the A-10 egress. All this would take place within a 1 minute window and choreographed to the second.


It would be cool if it was possible to create that type of engagement.

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/6/2019 7:39:15 PM   
Sabre21


Posts: 8231
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From: on a mountain in Idaho
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka


quote:

ORIGINAL: 22sec

What about terrain elevation? Won’t do any good if they are avoiding y’all objects only to fly over high ground just because it lacks y’all objects.


It depends. Behind a house or dense forest the helicopter is safe, even if it's on top of a hill.




A thing to take into account, when a helicopter unmasks, whether from a hover or inflight and there is no background terrain then it will skylight itself and become a big, fat target.
Especially if it does it on a hilltop or ridgeline. So typically we flew very low when within 10km or so of the target area using terrain to keep us masked as much as possible. I would never unmask myself on a hilltop by the way.

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/7/2019 2:52:45 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		Impressive accounts of combat coordination here and much appreciated.

I am wondering though if we are demanding too much of the current engine and dev's limited time. Flashpoint Red Storm has been challenged by this issue years after release. I admit not having played it for a while, so not sure of their success here.

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/7/2019 6:33:02 AM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1304
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Do you take into account different flight modes for the helicopters? NOE vs Contour vs low level.


How should they be taken into account?

quote:



Also can helicopters within the game utilize battle positions where they fire from while at a hover?


Can Engagement Areas (EA) be pre-planned where ground, air (both helicopter and fixed wing), and arty are coordinated to engage targets in a timed manner?


Back in the 80's and 90's we used a 1 minute clock, something we practiced quite often. As an example the EA might be several hundred meters by a couple hundred meters along an expected threat route of march. As the threat entered the EA, the mission commander (ground or air) would call in arty suppressive fire. The arty time to target was known to awaiting attack helicopters hidden in various battle positions. They would unmask and fire missiles at ADA, C&C, and lead and trail tanks usually in that order. The missiles and arty would strike just about the same time. Ground forces would then engage with several volleys and then fall back to alternate positions as would the attack helicopters. A-10's would then roll in on the target followed by another artillery barrage to cover the A-10 egress. All this would take place within a 1 minute window and choreographed to the second.


It would be cool if it was possible to create that type of engagement.


It can be hard to perform a coordinated stunt like that in the game, but yes, we do have pre-planned battle positions for helicopters. The helicopters use pop-up tactics when in the battle positions.



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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/7/2019 6:39:20 AM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1304
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I could make the helicopters avoid high elevation, in addition to the tall objects, on their way to the battle position.





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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/7/2019 11:38:07 AM   
22sec

 

Posts: 976
Joined: 12/11/2004
From: Jackson, MS
Status: offline 		I think that is an accurate representation of the routes choppers would use to move to positions. Would the route finding be the same when moving from one BP to another, or when moving to a HQ unit?

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/7/2019 2:03:40 PM   
kevinkins


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Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		I think the objective here is give the player the ability to select via an SOP how choppers move to the BP i.e. "Quickest" vs "Covered". I would not to force the player to accept a covered approach all the time. A covered approach might not be best in all situations.

Kevin

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/7/2019 10:45:30 PM   
Sabre21


Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Do you take into account different flight modes for the helicopters? NOE vs Contour vs low level.


How should they be taken into account?

quote:



Also can helicopters within the game utilize battle positions where they fire from while at a hover?


Can Engagement Areas (EA) be pre-planned where ground, air (both helicopter and fixed wing), and arty are coordinated to engage targets in a timed manner?


Back in the 80's and 90's we used a 1 minute clock, something we practiced quite often. As an example the EA might be several hundred meters by a couple hundred meters along an expected threat route of march. As the threat entered the EA, the mission commander (ground or air) would call in arty suppressive fire. The arty time to target was known to awaiting attack helicopters hidden in various battle positions. They would unmask and fire missiles at ADA, C&C, and lead and trail tanks usually in that order. The missiles and arty would strike just about the same time. Ground forces would then engage with several volleys and then fall back to alternate positions as would the attack helicopters. A-10's would then roll in on the target followed by another artillery barrage to cover the A-10 egress. All this would take place within a 1 minute window and choreographed to the second.


It would be cool if it was possible to create that type of engagement.


It can be hard to perform a coordinated stunt like that in the game, but yes, we do have pre-planned battle positions for helicopters. The helicopters use pop-up tactics when in the battle positions.





Within the scope of this game we probably wouldn't see low level flight modes other than maybe an air assault insertion of troops where they come in hot and fast, drop them off and scoot.

As for Contour flight, helicopters are moving at a pretty good speed..60 to upwards of 120 but staying low enough where they are constantly changing altitude and using terrain to stay masked, they are typically more at risk though than NOE flight but less though than low level.

NOE would be what is used to ingress and egress battle positions and out scouting looking for the bad guys with contact most likely. Speeds and altitudes vary considerably but to the most part they are below tree top level, moving in and around buildings, under wires and using terrain as well as possible.


Pretty much US, W German, Brit and French used these type of tactics. Warsaw Pact forces tended to rely more on speed while flying more low level than their western counterparts.



< Message edited by Sabre21 -- 1/8/2019 1:47:54 AM >

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/8/2019 1:05:11 AM   
exsonic01

 

Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/26/2016
From: Somewhere deep in appalachian valley in PA
Status: offline 		Nice idea, but what if players want to place the rotational wing right before the high ground, for up and down play? Can we still place helicopters right behind the building or right behind the cliff or hill?

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/8/2019 2:45:09 PM   
nikolas93TS


Posts: 619
Joined: 2/24/2017
Status: offline 		Contour flight you describe is probably most similar what we currently have in-game, and NOE is what we are trying to implement (I guess helicopters also fly at lesser speeds, depending on area of course?).

Sabre21, if you have the game we would be very happy to hear more of your suggestions, as I gather you seem to have served as pilot. That would help us to improve the system. We tried to model it as close we could to actual procedures and withing our knowledge of "ground pounders" and game engine. It is quite confusing to most players who are used to more direct control of air and particularly rotary wing assets, but that might be remedied one day by more user-friendly helicopter UI.

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/9/2019 12:59:31 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1304
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline 		In my experiments it has become clear that if the helicopters follow the complex paths then they need to use lower movement speeds, just like in real life. So, it's a trade-off between speed and cover.

How and when should the path type be selected?


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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/9/2019 3:06:00 PM   
22sec

 

Posts: 976
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From: Jackson, MS
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

In my experiments it has become clear that if the helicopters follow the complex paths then they need to use lower movement speeds, just like in real life. So, it's a trade-off between speed and cover.

How and when should the path type be selected?



Maybe Saber21 can chime in. I would like to know if flight profiles were determined before a mission launched or if the pilot had discretion based on the situation. If everything was preplanned then I would say the path type should be selected in the deployment phase when selecting BP’s. If the pilot had more discretion than I would think the path type should be able to be changed during the course of the game.

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/10/2019 8:45:21 AM   
gerardo

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 3/12/2014
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I don't have the game yet (will buy as soon as it gets Steam support). Having said that, i'm following its development and my idea on this is that in these kind of games i'm against any form of micromanagement. Give a general order and let the AI do its job, this is not an helicopter (or air combat) simulator

< Message edited by gerardo -- 1/10/2019 1:57:14 PM >

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/10/2019 2:06:48 PM   
kevinkins


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		I guess it will depend on the level of management you like or can tolerate having to use in a tactical game. In this game, the tac AI takes care of direct fire while the player can move individual vehicles and squads if they like. If you have not already, take a look at the game manual and youtube vids. You might may get a better sense if the game is for you even if it becomes available on Steam.

Kevin

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/14/2019 2:21:21 PM   
nikolas93TS


Posts: 619
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Status: offline 		If someone has (sound) suggestions, now would be the moment to put them forward.

Should player be allowed to select between two flight modes? Where to put that option? etc.

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/14/2019 3:24:31 PM   
22sec

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nikolas93TS

If someone has (sound) suggestions, now would be the moment to put them forward.

Should player be allowed to select between two flight modes? Where to put that option? etc.


My vote is to allow the player to choose path type. The default should be the new NOE, but once units arrive on map the path type can be change similar to how ground units path types are changed.

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/16/2019 1:45:07 PM   
Veitikka


Posts: 1304
Joined: 6/25/2007
From: Finland
Status: offline 		When the helicopter flight is highlighted, there could be a 'path' button next to the status. The button toggles the path type between the quickest/covered, or whatever they should be called, and the current path type is shown down there with other information.





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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/16/2019 2:34:11 PM   
22sec

 

Posts: 976
Joined: 12/11/2004
From: Jackson, MS
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

When the helicopter flight is highlighted, there could be a 'path' button next to the status. The button toggles the path type between the quickest/covered, or whatever they should be called, and the current path type is shown down there with other information.






I think that seems reasonable and efficient.

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/16/2019 3:08:23 PM   
kevinkins


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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/22/2019 11:34:54 PM   
sPzAbt. 502

 

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Status: offline 		Just feel the need to post this classic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9ZUXNeBoHo



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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/26/2019 1:18:53 PM   
22sec

 

Posts: 976
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From: Jackson, MS
Status: offline 		I wonder if once this is implemented if it will be possible to game (plan and execute) a deep strike kind of mission against a target such as artillery or a HQ? Can’t wait to try.

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RE: Helicopter pathfind - 1/26/2019 1:55:43 PM   
kevinkins


Posts: 2257
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		I would like that as well. However, the game's philosophy it to let the AI do all the specific targeting. So unless that changes, it will not likely happen.
Perhaps a trigger could be implemented so the chopper(s) only seek to destroy those types of units you mentioned i.e. something like an SOP.

Kevin

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