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Afrika Korps - 1/15/2019 5:14:57 PM   
VSente

 

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Joined: 8/11/2017
Status: offline 		Why the Afrika Korps is now deployed in Italy? .

All the cities of the Italian Libya are in axis hands

Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: Afrika Korps - 1/15/2019 7:37:20 PM   
xwormwood


Posts: 1149
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline 		It is a feature.
Many players complained about the placement of the AK directly into Africa (SC War in Europe), and you can include me to this group.
Now you will have to ship them toward North Africa, offering the AI and human players to intercept or damage some of your transports.

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/15/2019 8:39:46 PM   
VSente

 

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Status: offline 		Get the point, but the event costs the same and does not seem to have taken into account that now you have to spend more than 200ppm in transports, without counting possible losses :(


< Message edited by VSente -- 1/15/2019 8:40:37 PM >

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Post #: 3
RE: Afrika Korps - 1/16/2019 6:15:18 PM   
xwormwood


Posts: 1149
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline 		Nevertheless this DE is a bargain, not a loss. Even in games against the AI i like the tension when you start a transport, moving through an area with a single hex still under FOW.

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/16/2019 7:25:04 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
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Status: offline 		Really? I have no issues getting transports across the Med safely. No tension at all for me.

Historically the losses in transport across the Med were pretty minor for the Axis. Even into '42. So this idea of sinking half (or even one TR) of the AK before it gets to Africa is pretty farfetched. Even in a PBEM. As the Axis I'd love an Allied player to commit the ships needed to stop the transports from getting across. As many of the Allied ships would get sunk/damaged. With the damaged ones having to go all the way back home to get fully repaired.

During the first half of 1942, only six percent of the supplies dispatched were lost en route to Libya, thus supply problems were greatly eased in April and May.

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/north-africa-the-war-of-logistics/

So we will have to agree to disagree as I much preferred the old way where they just showed up in Africa.

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Post #: 5
RE: Afrika Korps - 1/16/2019 7:42:21 PM   
xwormwood


Posts: 1149
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline 		From all I know the Axis losses were signifcant.

Quote wikipedia:
The Allies were able to launch offensive operations from Malta and some 60% of Axis shipping was sunk in the second half of 1941.

But my knowledge isn't relying on wikipedia. All other publications I read stated that Malta was the thorne in the flesh of the Axis supply lines.



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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/17/2019 12:17:17 AM   
Tanaka


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Status: offline 		The other reason this was done was the MP cheat where allied players would just sit on the hexes where they were supposed to show up and just block it from happening...

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/17/2019 5:47:25 AM   
Pocus


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Status: offline 		You are expected to recon a path with something before sending your transports into the unknown. The best unit for that is the Italian sub. Then if it gets stopped by an allied ship, you need a sacrificial lamb to finish reconnoitering the path. For example the Italian bomber doing a recon. Or at worse a garrison boarded as a transport (overall cost 57 MPP I think, much better than having a DAK unit damaged in sea, then sunk the next turn).

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/17/2019 6:00:42 AM   
Kornstalx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

You are expected to recon a path with something before sending your transports into the unknown. The best unit for that is the Italian sub. Then if it gets stopped by an allied ship, you need a sacrificial lamb to finish reconnoitering the path. For example the Italian bomber doing a recon. Or at worse a garrison boarded as a transport (overall cost 57 MPP I think, much better than having a DAK unit damaged in sea, then sunk the next turn).


Motor Torpedo Boats are perfect for this. 75 MPP and they hang around, and can actually sink stuff. Granted their range isn't great, but one or two in Sicily would work great for scouting Malta. And if one gets caught, at least it can fight back.

This has some historical flair to it as well. The Regia Marina used tons of fast attack craft (such as in the Decima Flottiglia MAS), and other PT style boats for harassing Malta and Gibraltar. This is also how they launched many of their Human Torpedoes -- some of the MAS boats were outfitted with equipment to unload them, for when using slower submarines was too risky.

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Post #: 9
RE: Afrika Korps - 1/18/2019 11:57:26 AM   
Xsillione

 

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Status: offline 		Well, yes, but i would really appreciate if the Malta supply cutting was done by actual units, instead of a magical rock. No Naval or Air unit in or near Malta from the UK and yet it could kill the supply for years with its blockaded AA unit.

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Post #: 10
RE: Afrika Korps - 1/18/2019 6:34:20 PM   
Kornstalx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Xsillione

Well, yes, but i would really appreciate if the Malta supply cutting was done by actual units, instead of a magical rock. No Naval or Air unit in or near Malta from the UK and yet it could kill the supply for years with its blockaded AA unit.


Some things in this game are just abstract on purpose by design, such as invading Norway and Denmark. In the original Strategic Command, the player had to organize units to do this themselves. Personally I like the abstractness because it doesn't deviate from the historical part too much, and at the same time sort of mollifies some of the gameyness cheese that can occur if these abstract things weren't enforced.

Malta causes problems in the Mediterranean if it's Allied, regardless of what unit they have stationed there. It's the same for Axis Greece -- it causes the exact same supply problems for Allied Crete (which is a pain when you want to station air units there to cover a Balkan/Greek invasion).

At the end of the day it's still the player's choice how to deal with the abstract problem. If Malta is too big of a thorn in your side, invade it. A few Stukas, the Italian Navy, and a single unit of German special forces could pull it off vs the AI. Against a human it's up in the air, but I've seen some human players actually make it easier by leaving it ungarrisoned, or worse -- putting a Maritime Bomber there. Invading with air power and 1 or 2 Amphibious Transports would eat that situation up.

Denmark, Norway, the First Winter War, Crete, Iraq -- all of these are just abstract things done to enrich the game for the better.

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/18/2019 7:52:37 PM   
Xsillione

 

Posts: 212
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Status: offline 		Denmark is strange, IRL they just surrendered without any real resistance or demand of money, but OK and even if skipped not really important.
Norway never done well in any game, the entire operation based on the Allies not reacting it fast enough, which is somewhat hard to do if you know the invasion will happen.
Winter War again a hard to represent part, well, technically not really, just make the soviet units morale really low for this part and done, but simpler to abstract it.
Iraq is a tricky one.
Malta and Crete is the same bs, where no unit needed to do damage. This way the entire U-boat part could be done with a box, where you put money as germany, and the UK lose some mpp depening on tech levels. Yep, you can invade it, you need to invade it, but not because it is an important port and airport, but because it is a magical rock that can reduce the supply just by existing.

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Post #: 12
RE: Afrika Korps - 1/19/2019 7:14:37 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
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From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Decision Options - you chose if you want to manually do Norway/Denmark or not. Script Options - probably same as War in Europe, if you don't like it you can turn it off. No reason to call it bs or magic These are all Options that help make the game what it is.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/19/2019 6:01:52 PM   
Xsillione

 

Posts: 212
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Status: offline 		Thx for stating the obvious, captain; that we can turn it off. But if we turn it off, than there are no realistic way to block the supply beyond taking the ports or standing next to them.

What you simply fail to understand, that it could be done with a supply line that can be raided, or if that is not an option in this engine, than a bit more complex event, that needs at least a nearby naval unit from the UK to work. Currently it is bs magic rock, that if removed, we lose all the benefit of the concept with the bad implementation.

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Post #: 14
RE: Afrika Korps - 1/19/2019 9:31:39 PM   
sPzAbt653


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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

it could be done with a supply line that can be raided

No, it couldn't.

If you want to physically reduce supply in Africa, you use your Battleships to reduce the value of the Resources.

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Post #: 15
RE: Afrika Korps - 1/19/2019 9:37:24 PM   
Mithrilotter

 

Posts: 216
Joined: 2/18/2016
Status: offline 		When I played the original board game, Third Reich, which had stacking, one had to have a maximum strength air unit and a maximum strength naval fleet in Malta, to do maximum supply damage in Africa. That maximum supply damage was way more severe that is currently acheived by the "magic rock". I am okay with the "magic rock" currently damaging supply in Malta, as is does work. I can also see a legitimate argument for requiring African supply to be damaged by an Allied naval unit in or near Malta. That Allied requirement could allow an Axis player to attack those Allied units and either destroy them or force them out, providing a boost to Axis African supply. Historically intense Axis aerial attacks on Malta did allow improved Axis African supply for a time.

I don't know if the current game engine would allow such a change. I also don't know what the overall effect on play balance would be.

The Axis were historically able to deploy the Africa Korps safely to Africa. In all other prior Strategic Command games, Africa was the only option. I am all for having the option of deploying it in Italy. That is a great idea if for example, the Allies have already conquered Libya. During play testing, the Decision Event was changed from Africa only to Italy only. I don't like the Italy only option. I would say amend the Decision Event option to allow players a choice of deployment locations. Deploying in Africa should cost a little more but I am okay with equal costs. Anyone who wants to put it in Italy may do so. Anyone who wants to put it in Africa may do so. That should please the largest number of people.

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Post #: 16
RE: Afrika Korps - 1/19/2019 9:43:14 PM   
Kornstalx

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithrilotter

During play testing, the Decision Event was changed from Africa only to Italy only.



I believe this was done partially to eliminate gamey tactics like the Allied player dropping units on the spawn hexes to either prevent AK's appearance, or box/split it up. By having it deploy in Italy this is much more difficult.

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Post #: 17
RE: Afrika Korps - 1/22/2019 9:44:53 PM   
ThunderLizard11

 

Posts: 573
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Status: offline 		I just saw this. Makes no sense as it's very expensive to move the AK over to Libya. Prefer the WiE where it spawned in N. Africa.

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Post #: 18
RE: Afrika Korps - 1/23/2019 1:59:09 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Status: offline 		This is a tricky one as there were quite a few vocal players that were against the automatic arrival in North Africa, plus there are the issues with the previous setup as highlighted above where players could cut off all arrival positions and then the Afrika Korps had no chance to arrive at all.

While no solution will ever satisfy everyone, the current setup does avoid gamey exploits to prevent the arrival of the Afrika Korps, and plays out more historically as we've highlighted in similar threads.

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/23/2019 8:49:31 PM   
xwormwood


Posts: 1149
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From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline 		Maybe this could be turned into an optional feature (selection before you start a game):
comfort war (Yes: auto-conquest of Denmark and Norway, auto-placement of the AK in Lybia, No: this war is your war, war is hell, and you wanted it no other way)

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/23/2019 11:25:37 PM   
Christolos


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

This is a tricky one as there were quite a few vocal players that were against the automatic arrival in North Africa, plus there are the issues with the previous setup as highlighted above where players could cut off all arrival positions and then the Afrika Korps had no chance to arrive at all.

While no solution will ever satisfy everyone, the current setup does avoid gamey exploits to prevent the arrival of the Afrika Korps, and plays out more historically as we've highlighted in similar threads.


I like the current setup and in fact, would even like the invasion of Norway and Denmark to be handled the same way.
Right now, it seems too easy for the Axis to defeat Poland in two turns (easier than it was in SC War in Europe) and to launch an early 1939 blitzkrieg against France, knocking her out of the war way earlier than what happened historically. Of course there was the 'Phony war' period, which shouldn't have to happen in a game like this, that followed the conquest of Poland, but maybe to balance the game against an easy early conquest of France, by having the Axis actually invade Norway and Denmark (if they want to), would be a way to provide the Allies some way of retaliating strategically.

Just my thoughts for now.

Cheers,

C

< Message edited by Christolos -- 1/24/2019 12:31:37 AM >

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/24/2019 2:42:21 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
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Status: offline 		I always invade Denmark myself as it is is just very easy to do. Just like RL :)

I'd seldom invade Norway as it is just too much effort for too little gain imho if I did not have a script.

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/24/2019 11:20:58 PM   
Mithrilotter

 

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Status: offline 		I still don't understand why there couldn't be an additional option to deploy the Africa Korps in Africa. For example, DE 102 allows the UK to deploy the 7th Armored in Egypt or in the UK.

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/24/2019 11:47:46 PM   
seydlitz22513

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithrilotter

I still don't understand why there couldn't be an additional option to deploy the Africa Korps in Africa. For example, DE 102 allows the UK to deploy the 7th Armored in Egypt or in the UK.



Historically DE 102 etc is a work of fiction, because in 1938 apart from a name change the British unit was already in Egypt.


Mobile Division (Egypt)
RENAMED: 7th Armoured Division (1940)

The 7th Armoured Division was an armoured division of the British Army that saw distinguished active service during World War II, where its exploits in the Western Desert Campaign gained it the Desert Rats nickname.

After the Munich Agreement, the division was formed in Egypt during 1938 as the Mobile Division (Egypt) and its first divisional commander was the tank theorist Major-General Sir Percy Hobart. In February 1940, the name of the unit was changed to the 7th Armoured Division.

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/25/2019 4:53:58 PM   
taffjones

 

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Status: offline 		+1 for having a option to deploy the AK in Libya (For an additional cost) or in Italy.
I questioned it in the Beta test. Not being the best player I could see a good Allied player being able to decimate the transports en-route to Africa, especially as Germany doesn't have enough transport slots to ship them over in 1 turn.
I know good Axis players would love a Allied player to try and take out the transports by having a lot of air units in the med.
So a good player v a less experienced player (or not so good player) has an advantage whichever side they play at the moment.

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/25/2019 5:25:41 PM   
Yogol

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

This is a tricky one as there were quite a few vocal players that were against the automatic arrival in North Africa, plus there are the issues with the previous setup as highlighted above where players could cut off all arrival positions and then the Afrika Korps had no chance to arrive at all.

While no solution will ever satisfy everyone, the current setup does avoid gamey exploits to prevent the arrival of the Afrika Korps, and plays out more historically as we've highlighted in similar threads.


I understand, but the current setup is too far stacked against the Axis.

The units do not arrive in a port (except one unit) so they have to be moved to a port.
And they arrive in the north, so the transports take two turns to get to Africa.

Plus, on the highest difficulty setting, the AI has +2 spotting which makes it very difficult to get past Malta with those transporters.
You have no choice but to take out Malta, and it has to be done in 1940, because else you can't get them to the Eastern front in time.

In my opinion, it would have made more sense to make a decision event and give an option to deploy them in Africa for -say- 300MPP extra.

Plus... I do not know what causes this, but the Italians are worse than in previous games. On the highest difficulty setting, it is impossible to hold the line in Africa with the Italians.
Even when you move all three Italian armies, three corps and a HQ (a considerable investment by itself), the Allied obliterate them before the German troops are there.


This Africa Corps is my biggest point of critic on the game, the rest of the game is as expected or better
(except my old complaint for a bigger map: I know it would be an insane amount of work top redo all the map-design, AI events and balancing, but it would be amazing!!!!)

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RE: Afrika Korps - 1/25/2019 6:12:11 PM   
xwormwood


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quote:

ORIGINAL: taffjones

+1 for having a option to deploy the AK in Libya (For an additional cost) or in Italy.
I questioned it in the Beta test. Not being the best player I could see a good Allied player being able to decimate the transports en-route to Africa, especially as Germany doesn't have enough transport slots to ship them over in 1 turn.
I know good Axis players would love a Allied player to try and take out the transports by having a lot of air units in the med.
So a good player v a less experienced player (or not so good player) has an advantage whichever side they play at the moment.


Please regard that there are players who play against the AI. And there are players who play only against opponents they know, but never against unkown players or competitive players.

If you want an auto deployment, or auto-victories (like Norway), please ask for an option to enable / disable during the game creation phase. That is where this decision belongs.

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Post #: 27
RE: Afrika Korps - 1/25/2019 6:15:47 PM   
xwormwood


Posts: 1149
Joined: 8/28/2000
From: Bremen, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yogol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

This is a tricky one as there were quite a few vocal players that were against the automatic arrival in North Africa, plus there are the issues with the previous setup as highlighted above where players could cut off all arrival positions and then the Afrika Korps had no chance to arrive at all.

While no solution will ever satisfy everyone, the current setup does avoid gamey exploits to prevent the arrival of the Afrika Korps, and plays out more historically as we've highlighted in similar threads.


I understand, but the current setup is too far stacked against the Axis.

The units do not arrive in a port (except one unit) so they have to be moved to a port.
And they arrive in the north, so the transports take two turns to get to Africa.

Plus, on the highest difficulty setting, the AI has +2 spotting which makes it very difficult to get past Malta with those transporters.
You have no choice but to take out Malta, and it has to be done in 1940, because else you can't get them to the Eastern front in time.

In my opinion, it would have made more sense to make a decision event and give an option to deploy them in Africa for -say- 300MPP extra.

Plus... I do not know what causes this, but the Italians are worse than in previous games. On the highest difficulty setting, it is impossible to hold the line in Africa with the Italians.
Even when you move all three Italian armies, three corps and a HQ (a considerable investment by itself), the Allied obliterate them before the German troops are there.


This Africa Corps is my biggest point of critic on the game, the rest of the game is as expected or better
(except my old complaint for a bigger map: I know it would be an insane amount of work top redo all the map-design, AI events and balancing, but it would be amazing!!!!)


Against the AI you have plenty of time and possibilties to stop the AIs Allied invasion into Lybia, and with this you get more than enought time to bring in the AK.
With forced march / cruise mode you can bring the transports often enough into North Africe within one turn.
And adding two air units into Sicilly or Lybia will give you the recon abilities to avoid most the Allied units, espacially if you use your italian sub as well.

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Post #: 28
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