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expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/15/2018 2:22:22 PM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		As of 3/4/2019, all comments should be directed to The Next War - Expanded (Beta 1.0) thread.




I am in the process of updating The Next War 1979 (compliments to Bob Cross). Due to declassification of multiple CIA documents and other sources, I was able to greatly revise the Warsaw Pact Order of Battle, mobilization, and probable Front objectives. My intention is to try to keep the scenario as operational as possible while expanding the strategic scope of this possible war. Thus far:

- Expanded map to include Norway and some of Norwegian Sea. (Compliments to Pelle Holman's "Nordic Light")
- Created off-map boxes for the Military Districts of Leningrad, Baltic, Belorussian, Moscow, Carpathian, Kiev, and Odessa.
-revised unit names and locations of WP forces
- created Norwegian forces (Pelle Holman).
- tweaked the map

I will keep you posted on my progress. For now, here are some screenshots:





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< Message edited by mussey -- 3/4/2019 1:41:52 PM >

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/15/2018 2:24:51 PM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		The National Intelligence Estimate maps of WP possible mobilizations and start of operations:






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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/15/2018 2:25:40 PM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		The Finmark region of Norway:






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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/15/2018 2:26:41 PM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		A portion of southern Norway:




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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/15/2018 2:28:27 PM   
mussey


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Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Some of the Off-map mobilization boxes for the various Soviet Military Districts:






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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/15/2018 2:45:19 PM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Another good resource is Michael Holm's website: http://www.ww2.dk/new/newindex.htm






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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/16/2018 3:35:11 AM   
Ranger6

 

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Status: offline 		Wrong log in name.
RAK

< Message edited by Ranger6 -- 12/16/2018 5:26:44 AM >

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/16/2018 3:38:56 AM   
r6kunz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

I am loving this game! It was adapted to TOAW by Bob Cross from the original SPI game by the team of Dunnigan, Herman, and Simonsen 1978. In my college days, I spent countless hours playing this board game as the early years of the 1980's Cold War raged in Europe.


Keith, I am really looking forward to this update of the scenario by Bob Cross. I read your original post and it also brought back many memories of the SPI board game. Thanks! (I was stationed in Germany at this time period.)

I, too, wanted to update a TOAW III Cold War scenario. I chose Red Thunder 1988 with the kind permission Eric Rutins, the original designer. It appears as Red Thunder II 1988 in the current TOAW IV. I used several references to NATO and Warsaw Pact forces circa 1988 by Andy Johnson, referenced in the included Game Documents.
Otherwise, I left the map, unit start locations, etc. intact. Especially the Events which give Deus ex machina results for the Battle of the Atlantic, Iceland, Pact revolts, NATO countries surrendering, etc.
I will certainly review your attached references.

I would appreciate any feedback you or others have on Red Thunder II, and I am looking forward to a test drive of your scenario.
cheers,
RAK

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/16/2018 2:33:40 PM   
Oberst_Klink

 

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Status: offline 		For some reason, the 16th December always reminds me about you, 'Hawkeye'. If only I had the time to PBEM your masterpiece - Ardennes '44!

Klink, Oberst

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/17/2018 12:58:52 PM   
r6kunz


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Status: offline 		Herr Oberst
Thank you for your kind words;
s/RAK
aka Hawkeye

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/20/2018 11:42:12 AM   
mussey


Posts: 683
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From: Cleve-Land
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quote:

ORIGINAL: r6kunz

quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

I am loving this game! It was adapted to TOAW by Bob Cross from the original SPI game by the team of Dunnigan, Herman, and Simonsen 1978. In my college days, I spent countless hours playing this board game as the early years of the 1980's Cold War raged in Europe.


Keith, I am really looking forward to this update of the scenario by Bob Cross. I read your original post and it also brought back many memories of the SPI board game. Thanks! (I was stationed in Germany at this time period.)

I, too, wanted to update a TOAW III Cold War scenario. I chose Red Thunder 1988 with the kind permission Eric Rutins, the original designer. It appears as Red Thunder II 1988 in the current TOAW IV. I used several references to NATO and Warsaw Pact forces circa 1988 by Andy Johnson, referenced in the included Game Documents.
Otherwise, I left the map, unit start locations, etc. intact. Especially the Events which give Deus ex machina results for the Battle of the Atlantic, Iceland, Pact revolts, NATO countries surrendering, etc.
I will certainly review your attached references.

I would appreciate any feedback you or others have on Red Thunder II, and I am looking forward to a test drive of your scenario.
cheers,
RAK



Thanks r6kunz. I have yet to look at Red Thunder 2, but as I dig deeper into Order of Battle sources I'm seeing much more detail for a 1980's scenario than a 1970's one.

As I expand the design of this one, several questions are nagging me. Because of the enlarged game map of Russia, I am unsure how/where to place the supply points. I need to read up more on the finer details of this. Do any of you have suggestions?

The other is how (or whether) to include NATO naval forces in the Norwegian Sea. The point is how far to increase the left (western) margin. My goal is to keep the game as operational as possible while increasing Soviet strategic options of invasion/reinforcement. As of now, this sea area extends west only several hexes out from the Norwegian coast.

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/20/2018 11:45:08 AM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Another screenshot showing supply. Where to place supply points and how much to give perplexes me. Do I need on-map points if I have them in the off-map boxes?




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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/20/2018 11:52:25 AM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Murmansk area, shows the added units of the 21st Air Defense Corps and the Naval air units of the North Sea Fleet. Once again, I'm unsure of supply. Thus far I have a supply point at Murmansk and Pechanga. Both are naval bases.

Interestingly, the 61st Naval Infantry Rgt is based at Sputnik (Pechanga).




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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/20/2018 12:09:38 PM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Last screenshot for today. I extended the eastern map edge to include Budapest. This allows me to place the actual base locations of most units of the SSGF army and Hungarian units. Once again, supply (?). I have a supply point at Budapest...

The declassified 1979 National Intelligence Estimate indicates that WP units located here would compose a Danube Front, that would invade southern Austria and into northern Italy. This is one of several Fronts of the Southwestern Area TVD that includes WP forces in Bulgaria, Romania, Odessa MD, and Kiev MD are others.




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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 12/28/2018 5:24:00 PM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		I adjusted much of the North German Plain and changed unit colors. I'm not sure that the French colors serve them justice .

Once I give all my changes a good review, I will begin play testing to see how all this works out...








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Post #: 15
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/4/2019 8:46:51 AM   
Colinwhittaker

 

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Joined: 1/4/2019
Status: offline 		I posteda reply on the earlier comment about Next war. Do you want some help on the UK orbats?

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Post #: 16
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/6/2019 11:57:11 AM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Colinwhittaker

I posteda reply on the earlier comment about Next war. Do you want some help on the UK orbats?


Absolutely! Any additional sources for the 1979 time period would be appreciated.

I recently added new US Reforger sites in Netherlands, Belgium, W. Germany, then added the US 1 Arm Cav Div, and US 5 Inf Div to their respective Reforger sites. I'm about to change the deployment of the 18th Airborne Corp to England (probably ahistorical) a game turn earlier so that they have the option of reinforcing any trouble in NATO including Norway, Denmark, Western Europe, or Italy...

As of now, the Event Editor has the deployment of many of these units tied up to events on the ground, and I'm trying to learn how it all works (I need a flow chart)... I think much of it is tied to possible Soviet occupation of these Reforger sites, others to the Battle of the Atlantic results, thus altering the timeline continuum...

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/6/2019 12:09:23 PM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		I added a portion of the UK up north all the way through Orkney, Shetland, and Faroe Islands. I did this for several reasons:
- a staging area for US forces not committed to Reforger hexes
- to enlarge the scope of future naval actions in the North and Norwegian Seas
- to base the actual NATO air units (9th US Air Force, and UK Sqdns)

I have no intention of expanding any further, nor to recreate the Battle of the Atlantic (BoA). Yet somehow I have to balance the conceptual BoA with actual naval forces already committed to map...






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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/10/2019 10:47:46 AM   
cathar1244

 

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Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		Notes on location names -- corrections if not made already.

Kalingrad --> Kaliningrad
Berchtes-Gaden --> Berchtesgaden
Carneri --> Cameri
Wienter-Neustadt --> Wiener-Neustadt
Gross Dolin --> Gross Dolln
Gilzen Rijen --> Gilze Rijen
Ashaffenburg --> Aschaffenburg
Nurnburg --> Nurnberg
Luxeul --> Luxeuil
Laussane --> Lausanne
Tul --> Toul
Hamelin --> Hameln
Kobenhaven --> Kobenhavn
Bamburg --> Bamberg
St Truden --> St Truiden
Maastrich --> Maastricht
Sprangdahlem --> Spangdahlem
Luxembourge --> Luxembourg

(accented characters ignored)

Note on air bases. "AB" would be a shorter and more accurate designation. "AFB" is usually reserved for USAF bases on U.S. territory. Thus, Ramstein is "Ramstein Air Base", not "Ramstein AFB".

Also, on your new map, "Kaiserslautern" (adjacent to Ramstein) looks like it ends in -"stantern" ?

On edit: Zwichau --> Zwickau

Cheers


< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 1/10/2019 11:06:36 AM >

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/11/2019 12:09:28 PM   
mussey


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From: Cleve-Land
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

Notes on location names -- corrections if not made already.

Kalingrad --> Kaliningrad
Berchtes-Gaden --> Berchtesgaden
Carneri --> Cameri
Wienter-Neustadt --> Wiener-Neustadt
Gross Dolin --> Gross Dolln
Gilzen Rijen --> Gilze Rijen
Ashaffenburg --> Aschaffenburg
Nurnburg --> Nurnberg
Luxeul --> Luxeuil
Laussane --> Lausanne
Tul --> Toul
Hamelin --> Hameln
Kobenhaven --> Kobenhavn
Bamburg --> Bamberg
St Truden --> St Truiden
Maastrich --> Maastricht
Sprangdahlem --> Spangdahlem
Luxembourge --> Luxembourg

(accented characters ignored)

Note on air bases. "AB" would be a shorter and more accurate designation. "AFB" is usually reserved for USAF bases on U.S. territory. Thus, Ramstein is "Ramstein Air Base", not "Ramstein AFB".

Also, on your new map, "Kaiserslautern" (adjacent to Ramstein) looks like it ends in -"stantern" ?

On edit: Zwichau --> Zwickau

Cheers



Thanks for the feedback. I made the corrections this morning. Good catch.

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/12/2019 1:12:13 PM   
mussey


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Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Here is a screenshot of the new North Sea. I anticipate NATO Naval movement here to reinforce Norway and a thoroughfare to intercept Soviet forces coming down from the Norwegian Sea.

I'm uncertain how the naval game will play out.
- the Battle of Atlantic events will result in varying degrees of NATO delay, and I need to attach the entrance of naval units and sea reinforcements to the proper #event/game turn.
- The 2nd Fleet is huge. I need to parcel out what realistically would be committed to mapped gameplay keeping in mind that ships have various commitments that will prevent entrance into the game:
1) docked for refit/upkeep/repairs
2) elsewhere in the Atlantic including Mediterranean.
3) fighting the Battle of Atlantic off-map
4) naval losses fighting BoA (not sure how to create an Event to model this?)
- what ever 2nd Flt units emerge from the result of the BoA will greatly determine the future battle on the map here.
- I edited the limited number of vanilla naval slots to modern naval equipment. Some ship classes have ranged surface-to surface missiles (SSM) that have extended ranges (ie Harpoon, Exocet, and Shaddock).

Where I'm at currently, is creating the US 2nd Fleet, then attaching them to the proper #event. I need to adjust machine gun levels for both Forces. Then I can game test....





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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/17/2019 4:22:25 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		As an aside, this is an interesting article on NATO central front issues.

http://mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0006.pdf

A brief discussion of the frontage to be covered by brigades among other items.

Cheers

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/20/2019 12:25:35 AM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		I am currently editing the UK forces for the 1979 timeframe. Fire and Fury.com [https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/modcwbritish.pdf] is a good jump off point for this:






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Col. Mussbu

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/20/2019 1:10:36 AM   
rhinobones

 

Posts: 1540
Joined: 2/17/2002
Status: offline 		From the graphic in your post, I wish that TOAW could also make the physical size of the unit icon match the unit size. Your graphic shows division icons as larger than brigades, brigade icons larger than . . . wouldn’t it be nice if TOAW could also make unit icon sizes on map proportional to the unit size. Maybe size can be proportional to unit volume/weight as described in the scenario database.

Would like to see a regiment icon smaller than a division icon.

Would like to see a depleted regiment icon smaller than a full regiment.

This would obviously cause problems with the visual presentation in hex stacking, but the smart people coding TOAW should be able to find a way.

Regards, RhinoBones


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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/20/2019 3:37:57 AM   
boxof9


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Status: offline 		Excellent work. Any chance of expanding your map to include Greece and Turkey?

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/21/2019 10:32:28 AM   
mussey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: boxof9

Excellent work. Any chance of expanding your map to include Greece and Turkey?


After playtesting and release of Expanded 1, I may do another version that includes this area.

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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/27/2019 7:46:45 AM   
cathar1244

 

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Status: offline 		Blast from the past.

quote:

IT IS NOON, MAY 3. WARSAW PACT UNITS HAVE BEEN STREAMING ACROSS THE BORDER FOR THE LAST TWO DAYS. THE NATO COMMANDER HAS THROWN TOGETHER A MIXED FORCE DEFENSIVE FRONT ALONG A RIVER LINE (CENTER SCREEN). MASSED RUSSIAN ARMORED AND MECHANIZED INFANTRY UNITS THROW THEMSELVES AGAINST THE OUTNUMBERED DEFENDERS. IN THE SKIES ABOVE FIGHTERS, BOMBERS AND HELICOPTERS STRUGGLE FOR SUPREMACY. THE NEXT FEW DAYS WILL DECIDE THE FATE OF EUROPE. PREPARE FOR ACTION.


-- from MicroProse's NATO COMMANDER (1983). Played that one back in the day on an Apple IIe.

Cheers

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Post #: 27
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/27/2019 7:47:57 AM   
cathar1244

 

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Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		Dup


< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 1/27/2019 7:55:32 AM >

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Post #: 28
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/29/2019 11:04:43 AM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		I thought I was mostly finished with the OOB, then realized that the French Army during this time period was reorganized from x5 regular-sized divisions (which was never fully implemented) to x8 armored and x4 infantry/mech smaller divisions. These units are brigade size. Out of all the armies in this scenario, I have a much lower confidence level on my accuracy. Anyone with more info on this is welcome to comment. Check this out:






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Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


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Post #: 29
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 1/29/2019 11:18:11 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
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From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Hey you guys: I really appreciate you guys working on this. It sounds like one of the better scenarios so far. I can't wait
to play it.

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