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Any delusion I have had about US air superiority are shattered

 
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Any delusion I have had about US air superiority are sh... - 1/23/2019 4:47:12 PM   
dpabrams

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 3/29/2005
From: Casper, Wyoming
Status: offline 		About to call bullshit on this. Apparently I was pumped full of propaganda as the Soviet Union has nothing to fear putting up their humble MiG-23's against the lowly F-15C and F-16. Opening scene of a recent fighter sweep where I send 4x F-15C, 2x F-4 E and 4x F-16 to meet 4- MiG 23ML's. The F-15C's and F-4's get the drop with the RADAR advantage and launch 10 Sparrows at 2 MiG's. The Mig's cannot dive to the deck as they are over land and we score 1- HIT. Folks that's 10% kill rate.............pathetic! The 3x MiG's close and before they lose a single remaining fighter, down a F-15C, 2x F-4's and a F-16. I am sorry but this is crap and I promptly exited the Sim.

It should be mentioned that EF-111A's were in support, although they didn't get the Jam on the MiG's. The US forces are set to veteran and the Soviets to normal awareness levels.

So far my impression is that Soviet fighters, AAM's and the AI are far superior to any aircraft and missile I employ against them. I always assumed that a F-15 would mop up a MiG 23 any day all things being equal.

So what gives?

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 4:58:50 PM   
HalfLifeExpert


Posts: 911
Joined: 7/20/2015
From: California, United States
Status: offline 		For one thing, keep in mind that the US Air Force and Navy never actually clashed with Soviet pilots flying those aircraft, the only air to air engagements post-Vietnam were against Iraq, Libya, Serbia and.....I think that's it. I strongly suspect that if an actual clash happened, there would have been a serious fight with losses on both sides.

Those aircrew were never of the same caliber as the Soviet pilots, so that could be part of your 'delusion'. Also keep in mind that the astounding kill ratios of the 1991 Gulf War were one sided affairs, as the coalition A) whacked Iraqi command and control at the outset of the war and B) the US has serious advantage of AWACS aircraft orbiting outside of the combat zone.

I think someone else should try to explain the mechanics of modern air combat and the capabilities of those aircraft, so I'll leave my thoughts at that.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 5:15:33 PM   
Cik

 

Posts: 671
Joined: 10/5/2016
Status: offline 		what final PK% are you getting on your sparrows, and what sparrows are they?

what mig-23s are you using?

what you're seeing might just be a conspiracy of dice. sure, it's wildly improbable that a 50% pk will roll miss a dozen times in a row, but i've seen it happen.

please provide more information about the exact platforms, ranges, missile types, weather conditions etc so that we can give you a definitive yay or nay. thanks.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 5:17:23 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 3/21/2014
From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline 		Many of the planes have missiles that can shoot at far distances. But, shooting at targets from the longest distance isn't always the best tactic. Usually, the further away that you are, the kill percentage diminishes. As you get closer, those go up. Plus, if you give a good a/c a longer time to maneuver, it will evade the missiles. Where is that point on the playing field that you should withhold fire, or release it? Each situation is different. Tactics against a lumbering bomber is going to be different than a5th generation fighter.

Using the WRA is a way to adjust these distances. You will have to play with them to find out what is best.

Doug

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 7:03:48 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		How did you choose to employ your fighters and the Russian fighters? Tactics often drive the outcome more than technology.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 7:08:14 PM   
Paveiv

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 2/1/2014
Status: offline 		As others mentioned, you were probably just extremely unlucky or there was something wrong with the mission setup. There have been situations when I was really surprised at the outcome but the results are usually consistent. I have just tried 2 F-4E from 1977 (oldest US ones I found in DB, heavy load) vs 4 soviet Mig-23ML (standard loadout) from 1981. Just one quick try. Starting aproximately 150 miles from each other with aaw patrol mission over Libya in the middle. Active radars on, engage any contact even without identification. Otherwise default. F-4s managed to shoot down two Migs with Sparrows without any retaliation, Migs were running at that time. I could have ordered the F-4s to escape but I left the situation to AI. One F-4 started to run (no idea why, still had one Sparrow and 4 Sidewinders), the other tried to merge but was shot down. So adding F-15s and F-16s to the mix, I can´t image the Migs doing any damage at all.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 7:36:18 PM   
dpabrams

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 3/29/2005
From: Casper, Wyoming
Status: offline 		Man this is why I dig forums. The US Aircraft are F-4E Phantom II (1983) with AIM-7F Sparrow III and AIM-9J, F-16A (1981) with AIM-9L and the F-15C (1984) with AIM-7M Sparrow III and AIM-9M. Soviets are MiG-23ML (1983) with AA-7 Apex C (R-24R SARH), AA-7 Apex D (R-24T, IR) and AA-8 Aphid (R-60TM).

I have not toyed with WRA for release ranges, but I will now!

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 9:18:24 PM   
StellarRat

 

Posts: 188
Joined: 9/14/2009
Status: offline 		How far away were you? Most missiles should be employed at about half their max. range so they have maneuvering power. Also, why Sparrows? AMRAAM's are much better.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 9:25:49 PM   
dpabrams

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 3/29/2005
From: Casper, Wyoming
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StellarRat

How far away were you? Most missiles should be employed at about half their max. range so they have maneuvering power. Also, why Sparrows? AMRAAM's are much better.


AMRAAMs are not in the load out for these models and years. I am toying with the Sparrow III WRA. I have lowered to 45nm for starters.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 9:26:36 PM   
StellarRat

 

Posts: 188
Joined: 9/14/2009
Status: offline 		Oh, I see your new post. AMRAAMs weren't available yet. Anyway, everything I've read about Sparrows says they aren't so hot against small aircraft aka fighters. My guess is you'll have much better luck with Sidewinders provided you can get in closer. Also, like I said, you need fire Sparrows and other missiles from much less than max. range for them to work well against maneuvering AC.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 9:54:22 PM   
dpabrams

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 3/29/2005
From: Casper, Wyoming
Status: offline 		I'm telling you this is getting embarrassing. I just watched 2 MiG 23's shoot a combination of 8 missiles and down 2- F-15's and a F-4E, while the 3 US jets dodged and danced themselves to death they fired one sidewinder which missed. All the while 8 other F-15's, F4's and F-16's just watched from a distance and did not engage. At this point I feel I need to relearn the air game. All that money spent on these systems and we could have had MiG's. I think its time to run some tests or start playing as the Russians.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 10:02:00 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline 		Sounds like someone needs to learn how to play the game. What Mission Types, WRAs and Doctrines were you using for the USAF? Also, if you're engaging with older F-15Cs (with AIM-7F), F-4Es (with AIM-7E2 or AIM-7F) and non-ADF F-16As (limited to AIM-9s), then yeah, those MiG-23s can be dangerous.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 10:13:11 PM   
dpabrams

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 3/29/2005
From: Casper, Wyoming
Status: offline 		Weapon: AIM-7M Sparrow III #16160 is running blind for more than 5 sec... self-destructing. THIS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME. To the lab we go.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 10:19:01 PM   
StellarRat

 

Posts: 188
Joined: 9/14/2009
Status: offline 		You must be doing something wrong with your orders. Are you above the targets? That's bad. Second, the Sparrow M only has a range of 38 nm. Try a release range of 20nm or less. Also, the Sparrow is not a good dogfighting missile because the firing plane has to achieve and maintain a radar lock on the target until impact. That's really hard to do if they have to maneuver to avoid getting hit themselves (radar gimbal limits, etc...) If enemy is approaching you head-on you'll get one salvo off then you'll have to go to Sidewinders and guns in all likelihood or just hit the afterburners and run past them for another try later. Check to make sure you are allowing your AC to go to active radar before they fire. A lock-on takes some time.

< Message edited by StellarRat -- 1/23/2019 10:21:21 PM >

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 10:31:29 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline 		Sparrow Ms are good missiles - head and shoulders over the earlier models, but you need to keep your aircraft's radars on their targets (SARH). You may want to turn the Map Settings->Illumination Vectors to ALL to check that your radar is actually illuminating, too.

Try this - when you fire your Sparrows go ahead and manually set the shooting aircraft's altitude to 12k feet and make sure they keep pointed toward the target. When a hostile aircraft is fired upon standard behavior is for them to dive to the deck. If your firing aircraft is 36k feet overhead they might drop out of its' illumination cone - even though you're pointing at it on the X/Y axis it drops out on the Z. Going to 12k makes sure the enemy won't drop below the horizon and give a better chance of keeping it in the illumination cone.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 10:38:04 PM   
dpabrams

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 3/29/2005
From: Casper, Wyoming
Status: offline 		Test One in the dessert, meeting engagement:

2x F-4E Phantom II, with AIM-7F Sparrow III and AIM-9J Sidewinder verses MiG-23MLD Flogger K with AA-7 Apex D [R-24T, IR], AA-7 Apex C [R-24R, SARH] and AA-8 Aphid

I'll take the MiG's folks!

SIDE: BLUEFOR
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
2x F-4E Phantom II


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
8x AIM-7F Sparrow III
1x AIM-9J Sidewinder
3x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
3x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]



SIDE: OPFOR
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
1x MiG-23MLD Flogger K


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
3x AA-7 Apex C [R-24R, SARH]
3x AA-7 Apex D [R-24T, IR]
5x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]
6x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [2x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 10:43:26 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline 		Mmmm, dessert meeting engagements. Yummy! :)

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 10:45:32 PM   
dpabrams

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 3/29/2005
From: Casper, Wyoming
Status: offline 		User error? Perhaps, when the F-4's patrol towards the MiG's at 12K what a difference:

EXPENDITURES:
------------------
5x AIM-7F Sparrow III

SIDE: OPFOR
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
4x MiG-23ML Flogger G

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 10:58:01 PM   
Primarchx


Posts: 3102
Joined: 1/20/2013
Status: offline 		Here's what I got with a quick test (micromanaging Phantoms)...

SIDE: Blue
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
7x AIM-7F Sparrow III
1x AIM-9J Sidewinder



SIDE: Red
===========================================================

LOSSES:
-------------------------------
2x MiG-23MLD Flogger K


EXPENDITURES:
------------------
2x AA-7 Apex C [R-24R, SARH]
5x Generic Chaff Salvo [5x Cartridges]
3x Generic Chaff Salvo [4x Cartridges]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [3x Cartridges, Single Spectral]
1x Generic Flare Salvo [2x Cartridges, Single Spectral]

******

Missed a LOT of AIM-7F shots (not surprising). My first missiles got the Blind error as they were out turned by the target (which was notching as it descended). Odds are good that the Phantom's radar was maintaining illumination but that the Sparrow's seeker couldn't pick it up because the target was turning harder than it could follow. Follow on shots did not have this issue (since the target was already perpendicular it didn't turn as much when the missile approached) but missed a lot because they're crappy and either missed their Ph or were spoofed by chaff. Had to finish the second fighter with a rear-aspect AIM-9J.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 11:01:42 PM   
StellarRat

 

Posts: 188
Joined: 9/14/2009
Status: offline 		dpabrams - What were the altitudes for both sides in the previous engagements/tests?

< Message edited by StellarRat -- 1/23/2019 11:03:19 PM >

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/23/2019 11:26:43 PM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline
quote:

MiG-23MLD Flogger K with AA-7 Apex D [R-24T, IR]



There is a big difference between the MiG-23MLD with IR missiles and teh MiG-23-ML, not only were Soviet pilots better than the ones the USAF has faught since 93 but thier aircraft were as well.


When all you have is SARH (Aim-7 especialy older ones like F's) and the bad guy has IR - you're better off going home and fighting another day! But if you have to, you need to work the engagement so you entice the bad guy into shooting at you with poor solutions. Your Aim-9Js are better than his A-8s so get in close - but an MLD can probably out maneuver an F-4 as well so be carefull of his cannon. This is tough match up.

Against the ML as you showed in post #18 you can work the advantage of a better AC since all he has is SARH as well.

B


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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/24/2019 7:02:46 AM   
morphin

 

Posts: 572
Joined: 4/26/2002
From: Switzerland
Status: offline 		In my experience the AIM-7 SARH is really a very very bad missile.

So you need to close a lot to the target before firing (i usually close 50% of weapon range before firing). Also the change for "running blind" increase a lot if the target can dive to the bottom.....

So set the WRA to not more than 50% and if possible shot at it when the target is flying high....
And the because of the SARH your AC is very vulnerable..

Otherise like Gunner98 says it depends a lot also the enemy AC

Andy

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/24/2019 2:48:26 PM   
JPFisher55

 

Posts: 589
Joined: 11/22/2014
Status: offline 		When I play US fighters versus Soviet in this game, then, usually, the US fighters kill more aircraft than they lose. But the F-22 and the F-35 are not invulnerable in the game. However, I do not know if the results of this game would have, or will, reflect reality if, or when, the US fought the USSR, Russia or China in air to air combat.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/24/2019 3:35:26 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JPFisher55
When I play US fighters versus Soviet in this game, then, usually, the US fighters kill more aircraft than they lose. But the F-22 and the F-35 are not invulnerable in the game. However, I do not know if the results of this game would have, or will, reflect reality if, or when, the US fought the USSR, Russia or China in air to air combat.


While it's tempting to imagine the outcome of a Command run as perhaps predictive of how things might turn out in the future, I don't believe this is a wise way to interpret the outcome of a scenario.

Do keep in mind, there's a lot that doesn't play in Command (e.g. you have perfect C2), and there are a lot of things which play, but their representation is necessarily limited by the way Command works (e.g. electronic warfare). Therefore you shouldn't take the absolute attrition figures too seriously. Rather, the interesting bit is figuring out what makes you do better and worse. You want to see what makes things change. The other metric that I think is interesting is the exchange ratio, because in a larger scenario, you can think of it as an average over many encounters of sorts.





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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/24/2019 4:49:32 PM   
KungPao


Posts: 333
Joined: 4/25/2016
From: Red China
Status: offline 		Maybe it is just bad luck on dice roll

quote:

10:47:43 - 10:47:43 - Weapon: AIM-9X Sidewinder #3605 is attacking Ikram #10 (J-7IIH Fishbed [MiG-21 Copy]) with a base PH of 95%. PH adjusted for distance: 71%. PH adjusted for actual target speed (636 kts): 66%. Ikram #10 has nominal agility: 3, adjusted for altitude: 3. Agility adjusted for proficiency (Regular): 2.4. Aircraft has a weight fraction of 0.17 - Agility adjusted to 2.15. High-deflection impact (no effect on agility). Final agility modifier: -21%. Final PH: 45%. Result: 100 - MISS
10:47:37 - 10:47:37 - Weapon: AIM-9X Sidewinder #3602 is attacking Ikram #10 (J-7IIH Fishbed [MiG-21 Copy]) with a base PH of 95%. PH adjusted for distance: 62%. PH adjusted for actual target speed (646 kts): 57%. Ikram #10 has nominal agility: 3, adjusted for altitude: 3. Agility adjusted for proficiency (Regular): 2.4. Aircraft has a weight fraction of 0.18 - Agility adjusted to 2.15. High-deflection impact (no effect on agility). Final agility modifier: -21%. Final PH: 36%. Result: 74 - MISS
10:47:37 - 10:47:37 - Weapon: AIM-9X Sidewinder #3603 is attacking Ikram #10 (J-7IIH Fishbed [MiG-21 Copy]) with a base PH of 95%. PH adjusted for distance: 62%. PH adjusted for actual target speed (646 kts): 57%. Ikram #10 has nominal agility: 3, adjusted for altitude: 3. Agility adjusted for proficiency (Regular): 2.4. Aircraft has a weight fraction of 0.18 - Agility adjusted to 2.15. High-deflection impact (no effect on agility). Final agility modifier: -21%. Final PH: 36%. Result: 80 - MISS
10:47:03 - 10:47:03 - Weapon: AIM-120D AMRAAM P3I.4 #3600 is attacking Ikram #10 (J-7IIH Fishbed [MiG-21 Copy]) with a base PH of 95%. PH adjusted for actual target speed (578 kts): 95%. Ikram #10 has nominal agility: 3, adjusted for altitude: 3. Agility adjusted for proficiency (Regular): 2.4. Aircraft has a weight fraction of 0.19 - Agility adjusted to 2.13. Agility adjusted for rear-oblique impact effect: 1.8. Final agility modifier: -18%. Final PH: 77%. Result: 85 - MISS
10:47:03 - 10:47:03 - Weapon: AIM-120D AMRAAM P3I.4 #3600 is attacking Ikram #10 (J-7IIH Fishbed [MiG-21 Copy]) with a base PH of 95%. PH adjusted for actual target speed (578 kts): 95%. Ikram #10 has nominal agility: 3, adjusted for altitude: 3. Agility adjusted for proficiency (Regular): 2.4. Aircraft has a weight fraction of 0.19 - Agility adjusted to 2.13. Agility adjusted for rear-oblique impact effect: 1.8. Final agility modifier: -18%. Final PH: 77%. Result: 85 - MISS
10:46:26 - 10:46:26 - Weapon: AIM-120D AMRAAM P3I.4 #3598 is attacking Ikram #10 (J-7IIH Fishbed [MiG-21 Copy]) with a base PH of 95%. PH adjusted for actual target speed (748 kts): 95%. Ikram #10 has nominal agility: 3, adjusted for altitude: 1.8. Agility adjusted for proficiency (Regular): 1.44. Aircraft has a weight fraction of 0.2 - Agility adjusted to 1.27. Agility adjusted for rear-oblique impact effect: 1.1. Final agility modifier: -11%. Final PH: 84%. Result: 95 - MISS


I saw an Iranian J-7 evaded 3 AIM-120D and 3 AIM-9X before. Then he shot down several Tomahawk before RTB .

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/24/2019 5:03:47 PM   
dpabrams

 

Posts: 155
Joined: 3/29/2005
From: Casper, Wyoming
Status: offline 		What I have learned is this:

Altitude and WRA is absolutely critical when attacking in air to air engagements. Previously, I was always cruising at 36K and not using WRA. Its seems best to attack in air to air engagements from 12-25K and set your WRA for weapons like the Sparrow III at 30-40 nm instead of the 55 nm max. Using this method a flight of 2x F-4E's with a heavy Sparrow III load out will consistently down 4x Mi-23 ML, MLD types without a loss.

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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/24/2019 5:11:38 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KungPao
10:47:43 - 10:47:43 - Weapon: AIM-9X Sidewinder #3605 is attacking Ikram #10 (J-7IIH Fishbed [MiG-21 Copy]) with a base PH of 95%. PH adjusted for distance: 71%. [...]

10:47:37 - 10:47:37 - Weapon: AIM-9X Sidewinder #3602 is attacking Ikram #10 (J-7IIH Fishbed [MiG-21 Copy]) with a base PH of 95%. PH adjusted for distance: 62%. [...]

10:47:37 - 10:47:37 - Weapon: AIM-9X Sidewinder #3603 is attacking Ikram #10 (J-7IIH Fishbed [MiG-21 Copy]) with a base PH of 95%. PH adjusted for distance: 62%. [...]



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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/24/2019 5:15:26 PM   
Raptorx7_slith

 

Posts: 380
Joined: 7/27/2013
Status: offline 		Playing/watching flight sims like DCS will give you a much greater appreciation for how important firing a weapon at its OPTIMUM range is versus firing at max. I used to think that firing at max all the time was the right thing to do but when you realize what its like to go defensive against SAM and air threats it becomes clear that that's a huge mistake. Obviously they don't have the exact data but you get a good idea of what its like when a missile is coming at you and what happens to it as you evade.

No missile is a magic bullet and there is always a way to counter it, especially those old Sparrows which are extremely vulnerable to notching. Even the AIM-120D which is at the pinnacle of air to air missile technology can't do anything about an aircraft that's decided to turn and run from it at 50nm. Its all about knowing your capabilities and the enemies.

< Message edited by Raptorx7_slith -- 1/24/2019 5:19:52 PM >

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Post #: 28
RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/24/2019 5:23:06 PM   
KungPao


Posts: 333
Joined: 4/25/2016
From: Red China
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dimitris


quote:

ORIGINAL: KungPao
10:47:43 - 10:47:43 - Weapon: AIM-9X Sidewinder #3605 is attacking Ikram #10 (J-7IIH Fishbed [MiG-21 Copy]) with a base PH of 95%. PH adjusted for distance: 71%. [...]

10:47:37 - 10:47:37 - Weapon: AIM-9X Sidewinder #3602 is attacking Ikram #10 (J-7IIH Fishbed [MiG-21 Copy]) with a base PH of 95%. PH adjusted for distance: 62%. [...]

10:47:37 - 10:47:37 - Weapon: AIM-9X Sidewinder #3603 is attacking Ikram #10 (J-7IIH Fishbed [MiG-21 Copy]) with a base PH of 95%. PH adjusted for distance: 62%. [...]




yes, I have to release AIM-9X at max range. This is scenario "operation brass drum". after the AIM-120D missed my F/A-18Es were chasing that J-7. then 2x J-10 fired several PL-12. So I fired the AIM-9X at max range, turn on F/A-18Es' afterburner and running away from incoming PL-12s


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RE: Any delusion I have had about US air superiority ar... - 1/24/2019 5:34:12 PM   
Kobu

 

Posts: 130
Joined: 5/14/2018
Status: offline 		Hello
I never had seen this message "PH adjusted for actual target speed (636 kts)". Its a special option or anything??

Regards

(in reply to KungPao)
Post #: 30
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