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RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 12:04:57 PM   
cathar1244

 

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III Corps

	FlgAbt 301	48 UH-1		Fritzlar
	FlgAbt 351	32 CH-53	Mendig
	FlgAbt 361	56 Bo-105/ATGM	Fritzlar

	ArtBtl 310	18 ea 105mm howitzer		Kusel
	ArtBtl 320	18 ea 155mm howitzer		Giessen
	ArtBtl 330	Apparently not formed
	RakArtBtl 350	13 ea 20mm AA Gun, 6 LANCE missiles	Montabaur
	SichBtl 300	Attached light infantry battalion to protect the LANCE missiles

	FlaBtl 310	Marburg

	Pionier Kommando 3 (PiKdo 3)			Koblenz
			4 Engineer Battalions
			1 Amph Engineer Battalion
			1 Bridging Battalion


RakArtBtl 650	13 ea 20mm AA Gun 4 LANCE missiles	Flensburg
SichBtl 610	Attached light infantry battalion to protect the missiles

(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 91
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 12:05:21 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		Luftwaffe ground units:

NIKE-Hercules Battalions

FlaRakBtl 21 Möhnesee
FlaRakBtl 22 Burbach
FlaRakBtl 23 Schöneck
FlaRakBtl 24 Delmenhorst
FlaRakBtl 25 Barnstorf
FlaRakBtl 26 Wangerland

HAWK Battalions

FlaRakBtl 31 Westertimke
FlaRakBtl 32 Freising
FlaRakBtl 33 Lenggries
FlaRakBtl 34 Rottenburg an der Laaber
FlaRakBtl 35 Delmenhorst
FlaRakBtl 36 Bremervörde
FlaRakBtl 37 Cuxhaven
FlaRakBtl 39 Eckernförde




< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 2/5/2019 12:23:15 PM >

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Post #: 92
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 12:33:18 PM   
cathar1244

 

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NIKE units in Germany

Cheers

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Post #: 93
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 12:34:47 PM   
cathar1244

 

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NIKE units in Germany -- Rhineland detail

Cheers

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Post #: 94
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 12:37:06 PM   
cathar1244

 

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NIKE locations in Italy

Cheers

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Post #: 95
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 6:01:13 PM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Cathar, you are a machine. Do you sleep? THIS IS GREAT.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


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Post #: 96
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 6:08:44 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
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Status: offline 		Mussey, it is sheer luck. I've been digging up organizational information on some of the NATO armies over the last couple of years, and I found resources for the French and German armies.

Cheers

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Post #: 97
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 6:12:31 PM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		I'm getting ready to create the US 2nd Fleet (Atlantic Ocean). I identified the x13 CV's, their main base/ocean, deployment, and availibility for 2nd Fleet action in the North Atlantic, spring 1979:

Name / Main Port /Last Location found /status/notes
CV-59 Forestal, Atlantic, Med. Sea, 11/1979 ,available for 2nd Fleet
CV-60 Saratoga, Atlantic , Med. Sea, 3/1980 , available for 2nd Fleet
CV-62 Independ., Atlantic , Med. Sea, 6/1979 available for 2nd Fleet
CV-68 Nimitz, Atlantic, VA, cool leaks 5/1979; available for 2nd Fleet??
CV-66 America, Atlantic, Med. Sea, 3/1979
CV-67 JFK Atlantic Norfolk, re-fit thru late 1979
CV-69 Eisenhower Atlantic Med. Sea 1/1979 - 7/1979
CV-41 Midway Pacific Indian Ocean, 4/1979
CV-43 Coral Sea Pacific Indian Ocean, 1/1980
CV-61 Ranger Pacific
CV-63 Kitty Hawk Pacific
CV-64 Constellation Pacific Ind. Ocean, 1978-5/79
CV-65 Enterprise Pacific Pudget, re-fit 1/1979-82

Eisenhower AC 1979
VF-143 (F-14A)
VF-142 (F-14A)
VA-66 (A-7E)
VA-12 (A-7E)
VA-65 (A-6E and KA-6D)
VAQ-138 (EA-6B)
VAW-121 (E-2C)
VS-31 (S-3A)
HS-5 (SH-3H)


_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


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Post #: 98
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 6:22:26 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Status: offline 		Mussey,

BTW, the type of artillery piece for the corps artillery units (other than the LANCE units) is somewhat a guess. A document I have on the W German corps artillery stated most of these battalions were in and out of the reserves in the 1970s and underwent many organizational changes, including the types of towed pieces they used. Unlike the U.S. artillery, the Germans seemed to have had their heavier pieces with their divisions, with the corps battalions just adding some 105 or 155 fire support.

Cheers

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Post #: 99
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 7:19:35 PM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Good work Cathar, this mostly agrees with my Orbat as well. A WGer Corps:






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 100
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 7:21:30 PM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Pending any revisions, the WGer Territorial Army: (Note: the unplaced unit is a bastard relic that I might use...)
[edit: fixed mistakes!]






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by mussey -- 2/5/2019 7:57:11 PM >

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


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Post #: 101
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 7:24:28 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Hey you guys: I really appreciate all the trouble you are going through to get it right. I'm impressed. Thank you for all you do.

_____________________________

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Post #: 102
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 7:34:32 PM   
cathar1244

 

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Status: offline 		Mussey,

Ran across this. Italian fortifications facing Yugoslavia. First time I heard of it.

quote:

However, with Italy's membership in NATO, construction began on a new defensive line from Austria to the Adriatic along the Yugoslavian border along the Natisone and Tagliamento rivers. The new line used tank turrets in a manner similar to German defences during the previous conflict, allowing 360 degree traverse and a high rate of fire. By 1976 this system was still considered useful in any conflict short of nuclear war.


Cheers

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Post #: 103
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 7:41:40 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		These can be used to check the Italian OOB for missing units.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Italian_Army_-_3rd_Army_Corps_-_1986.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Italian_Army_-_4th_Alpine_Army_Corps_1986.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Italian_Army_-_5th_Army_Corps_-_1986.png

Cheers

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Post #: 104
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 7:47:28 PM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Hey you guys: I really appreciate all the trouble you are going through to get it right. I'm impressed. Thank you for all you do.


Larry, you'll know we got it right when you get a telephone call at 0300 and a gruff voice on the other end of the line tells you an alert has been called and to report to your unit.

Cheers

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 105
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/5/2019 9:15:39 PM   
MikeJ19


Posts: 3696
Joined: 1/29/2014
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		Hi Guys,

I want to echo Larry's comment. This is a very good game, but it becomes great with the work done on the scenarios by guys like you! Thanks,

_____________________________

Mike

Retired Gunner

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Post #: 106
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 12:42:59 AM   
MikeJ19


Posts: 3696
Joined: 1/29/2014
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline 		Guys,

I have played the WP player in a couple of scenarios and I feel that they are often handicapped because of low supply. As they are on the offence, they burn through their supply pretty quickly too. Overall, I think you might want to find a way to give more supply at the outset to the WP. In my mind, the WP needed to win quickly because the longer the battle goes, the more the advantage flips to NATO.

Just a thought.

Also, when you are ready to play test let me know.

Once again thanks for all the hard work on this.

_____________________________

Mike

Retired Gunner

(in reply to MikeJ19)
Post #: 107
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 5:38:46 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

Good work Cathar, this mostly agrees with my Orbat as well. A WGer Corps:







The rail repair unit is an interesting detail. I'm about 100% sure this would not have been a military force, but rather some outfit from DB -- the German national rail service. In game terms, there should probably be a rail repair unit in every major city, reflecting the concentration of railway expertise. This comment probably goes for all the European countries; military rail repair units are only needed by those forces pushing into enemy held territory.

If you're identifying the W German corps engineers by battalion, here were their locations.

I Corps

110th Battalion in Minden
120th Battalion in Dörverden
130th (amphibious) Battalion in Minden
140th Battalion in Emerich
150th Battalion in Höxter
160th Bridging Battalion in Minden
170th Bridging Battalion in Dünsen

II Corps

210th Battalion in Munich
220th Battalion in Hemau
230th (amphibious) Battalion in Ingolstadt
240th Battalion in Passau
250th Battalion in Schwabsberg
260th Bridging Battalion in Ebenhausen
270th Bridging Battalion in Münchsmünster

III Corps

310th Battalion in Koblenz
15th Battalion in Köln (Cologne)
330th (amphibious) Battalion in Speyer
340th Battalion in Emmerzhausen
350th Battalion in Stadtallendorf
360th Bridging Battalion in Haiger

Each corps also had two MP battalions: 190, 191, 290, 291, 390, 391.

Cheers


< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 2/6/2019 5:59:10 AM >

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 108
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 5:56:14 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19

Guys,

I have played the WP player in a couple of scenarios and I feel that they are often handicapped because of low supply. As they are on the offence, they burn through their supply pretty quickly too. Overall, I think you might want to find a way to give more supply at the outset to the WP. In my mind, the WP needed to win quickly because the longer the battle goes, the more the advantage flips to NATO.

Just a thought.

Also, when you are ready to play test let me know.

Once again thanks for all the hard work on this.


Hi Mike,

My two cents. I think NATO-WP games often underestimate the sheer chaos that NATO would have had to deal with, as well as too often assuming that all NATO nations would have gone to war.

One surprise attack scenario that CENTAG considered was a Christmas offensive enabled by Soviet wargames (units out of the barracks) will every soldier tasked to carry additional ammunition, including shells for larger weapons. CENTAG thought such an attack might get them on the Rhine within 48 hours.

On supply generally, I think the Pact was front-loaded for high supply expenditure in the first week or so and then expected to develop supply distribution problems such that their offensive options would be curtailed. I know the supply for units can be set artificially high at the start of a scenario; that might address some of this issue.

Cheers

(in reply to MikeJ19)
Post #: 109
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 8:39:39 AM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244

These can be used to check the Italian OOB for missing units.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/71/Italian_Army_-_3rd_Army_Corps_-_1986.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Italian_Army_-_4th_Alpine_Army_Corps_1986.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Italian_Army_-_5th_Army_Corps_-_1986.png

Cheers


I found a good source for our illustrious Italian allies from Wiki Fandom site. http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Italian_Army_1984_Order_of_battle. Here is a small portion:


Italian Army 1984 Order of battle
33-45 minutes
FANDOM

On March 1, 1984 the Italian institute for disarmament, the development and peace (Istituto di ricerche per il disarmo, lo sviluppo e la pace (IRDISP)) in Rome (a think thank of the Radical Party) published the entire Italian OrBat down to company level - this was justified for the radical party as on of its core demands was total disarmament of Europe, even though the data which were published were top secret. The Radical Party dissolved in 1989 (its parliamentarians had passed along the data) and the IRDISP followed suit in 1990. But Radio Radicale has survived, and the OrBat can still be found today on the homepage of the radio.

OrBat published by Istituto di ricerche per il disarmo, lo sviluppo e la pace (IRDISP) in Rome on March 1, 1984.[1]

3rd Army Corps

3 Corpo d'Armata Milano

4 Battaglione Fanteria "Guastalla" (BAR) Asti
72 Battaglione Fanteria "Puglie" (BAR) Albenga
Reggimento Artiglieria a Cavallo Milano
1 Gruppo Semovente/Regg. Art. a Cavallo Milano, 18 M109G, 2 M577, 3 M113, M548 ammo carrier
2 Gruppo Semovente/Regg. Art. a Cavallo Milano, 18 M109G, 2 M577, 3 M113, M548 ammo carrier
3 Gruppo Semovente/Regg. Art. a Cavallo Milano, 18 M109G, 2 M577, 3 M113, M548 ammo carrier
3 Gruppo Specialisti Art. "Brianza" Milano
3 Battaglione Genio Pionieri "Lario" Pavia, 2 BrPz1, 3 PionierLeopard
3 Battaglione Trasmissioni "Spluga" Milano
23 Gruppo Squadroni ERI "Eridano" Bresso, 18 AB-206
53 Gruppo Squadroni EM "Cassiopea" Padova, 12 AB-205
3 Battaglione Logistico di Manovra "Piemonte" Milano

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 110
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 8:51:08 AM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
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quote:

The rail repair unit is an interesting detail. I'm about 100% sure this would not have been a military force, but rather some outfit from DB -- the German national rail service. In game terms, there should probably be a rail repair unit in every major city, reflecting the concentration of railway expertise. This comment probably goes for all the European countries; military rail repair units are only needed by those forces pushing into enemy held territory.

If you're identifying the W German corps engineers by battalion, here were their locations.


Bingo on the locations. I'm on it, thanks!

Yes, those RR's. There is no such unit I can find, and suppose that rail repair would be done by one of the four engr bns? If so, I will need to add RR engineers to them. Unfortunately, in-game regular engineers are not capable to do this work (I think it's a union thing). My only other thought was to divide and downsize the x4 bns into x5 and make the 5th the RR bn. This reduces engr sqds from 30 per bn to 24. Regardless, creative license required.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 111
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 8:57:40 AM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Cathar, how are these TO&E'd? Each pin is a battery I assume, comprising a bn (circled)? The original game has the Hawk bns at x24 ea., and the Herc's at x36, roughly the number of bns as you posted. Not sure if they were mobile or fixed.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 112
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 9:06:45 AM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeJ19

Guys,

I have played the WP player in a couple of scenarios and I feel that they are often handicapped because of low supply. As they are on the offence, they burn through their supply pretty quickly too. Overall, I think you might want to find a way to give more supply at the outset to the WP. In my mind, the WP needed to win quickly because the longer the battle goes, the more the advantage flips to NATO.

Just a thought.

Also, when you are ready to play test let me know.

Once again thanks for all the hard work on this.


Good point Mike. Thus far, I set 100 supply hexes within each boxed Soviet Military district (see my photo's of these on previous pages), and several 50's elsewhere including Murmansk. Also some 40's along the Danish and Norwegian coast in case of naval invasion. I have little experience with changing the editor multipliers. Do you think we need to edit this? Let me know!

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to MikeJ19)
Post #: 113
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 9:22:02 AM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Hey you guys: I really appreciate all the trouble you are going through to get it right. I'm impressed. Thank you for all you do.


Thanks Larry. I think I'm nearing the end of the orbat's, finishing the US 2nd Fleet, then will tie it and shipped US divisions to the event editor. Mr. Bob Cross has created a very complex event chain process that incorporates a plethora of events including 1)the possibility of various nations quitting, 2) chances of victory for the Battle of the Atlantic. This will determine what US units arrive and when.

My question for you, is how do you suggest we roll this scenario out? First, I want to personally conduct several dry runs to ensure reinforcements arrive where/when they should, then allow others to play-test it before uploading to you. The feedback needs to be collated and organized back to me to incorporate it into a finished product. Let me know what you think!

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 114
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 9:30:51 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

My question for you, is how do you suggest we roll this scenario out?

I like the idea of playtesting it first before rolling it out. There are probably going to be several small things that you're going to need to change / fix that playtesting will find. I would hazzard the guess that most of the big things are just fine and it's probably going to be some of the little details that need adjustment.

_____________________________

If we're all created in the image of god then why aren't we all invisible?

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 115
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 9:41:16 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		On that Italian Army OOB (good find!), be wary of one thing. I tracked down the original document on the internet archive, and it did not include the bit about which equipment was in the units (18 M109G etc.) -- that was probably added by someone else from the well-known "NATO 1989 Order of Battle" document by Andy Johnson. 1984 and 1989 are not that distant from each other, but whoever added that should have noted where that information came from.

One may view the original Italian document at https://web.archive.org/web/20100316144141/http://www.radioradicale.it/exagora/lesercito-italiano-3-quello-che-i-russi-gia-sanno-e-gli-italiani-non-devono-sapere

Cheers

(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 116
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 10:14:00 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

Cathar, how are these TO&E'd? Each pin is a battery I assume, comprising a bn (circled)? The original game has the Hawk bns at x24 ea., and the Herc's at x36, roughly the number of bns as you posted. Not sure if they were mobile or fixed.







24 looks correct for the HAWK; a battery had six launchers. They were semi-mobile, but operated from fixed sites.

NIKE has nine launchers per battery and four batteries per battalion.

Each ADA battery was authorized 8 .50-cal MG and 8 light antitank weapon as well.

Cheers

(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 117
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 10:36:32 AM   
mussey


Posts: 683
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From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
quote:

Each corps also had two MP battalions: 190, 191, 290, 291, 390, 391.


I have x1 now, is the other for the Lance SSM unit or is it a separate unit? Also, do you see any (reserve) Jager bns for the corps or divisions? Mid-1980's orbats have them, not sure if appropriate for 1979.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 118
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 10:39:40 AM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
quote:

24 looks correct for the HAWK; a battery had six launchers. They were semi-mobile, but operated from fixed sites.

NIKE has nine launchers per battery and four batteries per battalion.


As a design decision, do I leave them as Bn's or create battery-level units.... Let me think on this.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to cathar1244)
Post #: 119
RE: expanded The Next War 1979 - 2/6/2019 10:45:04 AM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

My question for you, is how do you suggest we roll this scenario out?

I like the idea of playtesting it first before rolling it out. There are probably going to be several small things that you're going to need to change / fix that playtesting will find. I would hazzard the guess that most of the big things are just fine and it's probably going to be some of the little details that need adjustment.


Good. I will post a call-out for volunteers when the time nears, hopefully by mid to late-month(?). Several here have already joined in. Thanks.

_____________________________

Col. Mussbu

The long arm of the law - "The King of Battle"


(in reply to larryfulkerson)
Post #: 120
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