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Stug (TD) vs tanks - 6/19/2003 2:29:45 PM   
dwayne

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		I'm currently playing Long WWII campain and I have a question about core force.
Is there any reason to purchase Stugs or TD when you can have real tanks? :confused: I now they are less costly but I have lot of spared points to use.

thanks for enlightment:)

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dwayne
Post #: 1
- 6/19/2003 2:49:12 PM   
Hades

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Texas
Status: offline 		heavier armor, and they go faster than early Panzers they are always good for inf support if you dont want Pz IVs but it really doesnt matter since anything can turn on a dime in SPWaW

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Post #: 2
- 6/19/2003 2:57:35 PM   
dwayne

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		thank for your comment hades. Sure, Stugs support inf better than normal tanks (Pz III), but for supporting my inf I use suIG 33 (or anything moveable with ig33 150 mm gun) I love those guys, they are killers:cool:

And I see few problems with TD when comparing to tanks. They have no turets and are mostly open on top.

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Post #: 3
Re: Stug (TD) vs tanks - 6/19/2003 2:57:50 PM   
Marek Tucan


Posts: 758
Joined: 6/1/2000
From: Kladno, Czech Republic
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by dwayne
[B]I'm currently playing Long WWII campain and I have a question about core force.
Is there any reason to purchase Stugs or TD when you can have real tanks? :confused: I now they are less costly but I have lot of spared points to use.

thanks for enlightment:) [/B][/QUOTE]

In the campaign I prefer to have a core built up from a tank company/companies (I usually take two) with a support of a battery of assault guns and a battery of TDs - the TDs have usually better guns, but they aren't suitable for the melees, so I let them support the tanks from rear.

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Post #: 4
- 6/19/2003 4:10:49 PM   
Belisarius


Posts: 4041
Joined: 5/26/2001
From: Gothenburg, Sweden
Status: offline 		StuGs are also smaller (size 3 while tanks are size 4-6), which supposedly makes them a bit more difficult to hit.

Excellent for tank support, IMO.

The real baby is the 105mm StuH. All the advantages of the StuG plus the ability to kill almost anything at closer ranges.

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Post #: 5
size - 6/19/2003 4:41:14 PM   
dwayne

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		How much the size is an issiue? (in SPWAW, of coure:D :D )

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Post #: 6
stug underated but respected - 6/19/2003 5:50:08 PM   
MOTHER

 

Posts: 172
Joined: 10/26/2002
From: Melbourne ,Australia
Status: offline 		in my opinion those things are better over the length of the campaign especially as a td [stugIIIG].wait till your crews get a few kills then they are the ants pants.breakdowns is a curse though.the only thing better of equal value and has a surprise factor if used correctly is a PzIII amphibious.its always great to hear the squeals of dismay when they suddenly appear blasting the poor ol m5 1/2 tracks or the like.[the deserts another matter though]:rolleyes:

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Post #: 7
- 6/19/2003 7:27:38 PM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline 		The lack of a turret doesn't matter at all. Not in the game, except when the TD's been immobilized? Why? As was earlier pointed out, any vehicle in the game can spin and dance like a ballerina. One can make an argument that a Stug is *better* to buy then an Panzer, becaue they are cheaper, so you can get more for the same point cost, and that the Stug's histroical disadvantge, the lack of a turret, does not enter into the game.

Alex

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Post #: 8
- 6/19/2003 10:54:38 PM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		I find that especially in desert battles early in the war that Stugs are very nice because they have the heavier front armor. You can use them to absorb op fire and put down some suppression before moving in with your more lightly armored tanks.

Those short barrelled 75s really tear up the infantry too. So, use them with your infantry too. They are a very good [U]support[/U] unit.

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Post #: 9
- 6/19/2003 11:03:49 PM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		About the only drawback I can think of, is their generally lower ROF, especially after movement.

Well, that and the fact that my Stuh42's always seem to become AP round "magnets".

:(

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Post #: 10
- 6/20/2003 12:01:46 AM   
Svennemir

 

Posts: 542
Joined: 11/2/2001
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Generally StuGs and other turretless vehicles have lower "Targeting" ratings than others. This makes them less likely to OpFire (or have fewer OpFires total), plus IIRC it makes the gun a bit more inaccurate. I think it has to do with the bonus from targetting something multiple times, but I'm not sure.

Still these disadvantages are very small in the game.

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Post #: 11
- 6/20/2003 12:03:40 AM   
SkidLid

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 5/22/2003
From: Lancaster,UK
Status: offline 		I find battle tanks are best for mobile armoured battles.I usually use StuGs in an urban environment where the heavier armour and larger gun make it easier to deal with infantry in ambush positions (the Brummbar and is the king in this arena! :D )
I generally use TDs in a defensive situation, in ambush positions where they can get an accurate shot from short range. Very few tanks can survive that kind of attack...

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Post #: 12
- 6/20/2003 12:45:24 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		In Open terrain - (long vis, flat terrain, minimal obstructions)
I like to use my Assault Guns (StuGs) as flanking ATs. They function as ATGs would but have the bonus of mobility. Often, this allows me to push one flank through and turn the opponent's flank setting up side shots. TDs, as someone mentioned earlier, are best used behind the armor formations to support my tanks when on the advance.

In Closed terrain - (just about everything else)
I tend to use Assault Guns as close support for the infantry. Squads advance and contact enemy elements, draw fire, engage. Then the Assault Guns can move up to disperse enemy survivors.

Although Assault Guns with large caliber main guns are good at killing enemy infantry, Splash Damage from a 105 (or 150) can be just as devestating to your own, nearby troops. For this reason, I try to keep my engagement range on those units set to 1 or 0. Nothing stinks worse than having your SiG33 reach out five hexes to OpFire a moving vehicle, and then injuring 3 ro 4 of your own squads in the hexes adjacent to the target. :mad: This also makes the big Assault Guns (SiG) difficult to use in tight engagement situations, IMO.

I very rarely select TDs in any battle where the vis is 20 or less. If a TD can stand back, crest the hill, take a shot and defilade back behind the hill, he's got to be a kilometer or more away. Any closer, and he just becomes another one-shot target. ;) Being usually Open-topped, they're also more vulnerable to small arms or Machinegun fire within that range.

Conversely, AGs perform better in short vis situations. Their short guns have to be in close to be effective. Their armor is usually capable of shrugging off most incoming AP (until later years). Their better top armor, makes them difficult to kill with air strikes.

Their smaller size DOES make them harder to hit. (Size does matter). For example, have you ever tried to hit a jeep at long range? It's very difficult to hit the smaller vehicles. If your vehicle is size 5 or larger, you'd better have pretty heavy armor on it. You're going to get hit a lot.

If I were selecting a core force for a campaign, I might buy both StuGs and PzIIIs. But I would then upgrade the StuGs at the first opportunity to PzIVs. I just prefer a turreted tank. I wouldn't bother with TDs because of the variable situations that a campaign is going to demand.

I also wouldn't purchase high-risk or single-use units as part of the core force. I spend the additional battle points to purchase Scouts, Artillery and usually Infantry I might require for that specific mission. :cool:

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Post #: 13
- 6/20/2003 1:24:22 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		I sure love my elite Stugs in MCLV. They are deadly.:D

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Post #: 14
- 6/20/2003 1:26:33 AM   
Martin Sabre

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 9/28/2002
From: Newcastle upon Tyne, UK
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim1954
[B]About the only drawback I can think of, is their generally lower ROF, especially after movement.

Well, that and the fact that my Stuh42's always seem to become AP round "magnets".

:( [/B][/QUOTE]

Another drawback is the lack of MG in the early war STuG

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Post #: 15
- 6/20/2003 1:45:42 AM   
Jim1954

 

Posts: 1393
Joined: 5/15/2002
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		That's what the landsers are for. Also sometimes the MA will get knocked out on a non-penetrating hit with a little more frequency that a turreted vehicle, at least in my experience.

I sometimes lament the low AP loudout on the B model in MCLV. 11 rounds max ain't a lot when you are dealing with half of the armored forces in the Red Army each battle.

:D

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Post #: 16
- 6/20/2003 7:23:23 AM   
Hades

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Man my StuGs were killers too. Then one day they were sitting on a wooden dock waiting on a barge to come to get pick them up, when some 152s decided to make life a pain. :mad: :mad: :mad: We're talking 5 shots a turn, then I had to deal with raw recruits, but my force is almost back where it was.

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Post #: 17
thanks - 6/20/2003 2:26:35 PM   
dwayne

 

Posts: 79
Joined: 6/12/2003
From: Slovakia
Status: offline 		everyone for you comments and aid. I've changed 2 of my tank platoons to Stuh platoon to better support my troops. I'll tried them to see what they can do.

I have a first fight with US in North Africa, so let see how thay can manage againts those lazy us soldiers and those "tank" they call M4:D

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dwayne

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Post #: 18
- 6/20/2003 11:02:48 PM   
Wolfleader

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 10/31/2002
Status: offline 		On the upside, aside from being cheaper Stug's get upgraded with the long barrelled 75mm cannon sooner than the PzIV so they can provide you with an AFV with a much better tank killing capability than the PzIII much earlier on.

Their also smaller and a lot harder to spot and hit.

On the downside I've found that Stugs don't have as many shots per turn as regular turreted tanks and also tend to be more inaccurate with their shots.

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Post #: 19
- 6/20/2003 11:39:21 PM   
Sentry

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 6/16/2003
From: Jõgeva,Estonia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by dwayne
[B]thank for your comment hades. Sure, Stugs support inf better than normal tanks (Pz III), but for supporting my inf I use suIG 33 (or anything moveable with ig33 150 mm gun) I love those guys, they are killers:cool:

And I see few problems with TD when comparing to tanks. They have no turets and are mostly open on top. [/B][/QUOTE



It doesnt matter they dont have turrets.Usually the Stugs have better armor piercing and movement +bonus against infantry.Ofcourse,when immobilized they are very vulnerable.Example:My controlled SO SMG squad immobilized Stug but was wiped out before destroying it.I waited enemy infantry to move on and brought out PTRD troop.I approached from side and Stug couldnt do anything.I fired approx. 4 shots and the crew bailed.As i remember it was Stug 40f with quite good armor value.About open tops:only early TDs are open topped but they have really good guns on too.For infantry support i usually use the SPW with 81mm mortar.It supresses them really good

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Post #: 20
- 6/21/2003 11:19:45 AM   
Irinami

 

Posts: 746
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline 		Amen. The SdKfzw 250/7 GrW and SdKfzw 251/2 are a Godsend. They're so handy I almost always change my organic 81mm's (and even the 60mm's half the time) with them.

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Post #: 21
Stug as support - 6/21/2003 7:49:49 PM   
robot


Posts: 1438
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Covington Ky USA
Status: offline 		When i started the long campaign against poland circa 1939. I bought 3 sections of pz with only the mmg on them. Then when the stugs came in around 1940 i upgraded the pzs to them. I used the pzs as infantry support only. Then when i got the stugs they are used in the same role only. My mobile td are used as tank support or in defensive roles. Also in support of the stugs i use the pzIvs like 2 sections of them.

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Post #: 22
- 6/25/2003 7:08:36 PM   
Vetkin

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 7/21/2002
From: Philippines
Status: offline 		Personally I don't like turretless TDs (Ie. German) because they react ?slower? than tanks especially against infantry and they have less ?spotting? ability than tanks. I don't know if you guys have experienced this but the PzIII is definitely much better than a Stug B (in the early war.) You can use Stugs against the computer and it would be easier (because they rarely if ever flank and always shoot you dead front) but not that easily against humans who use flank shots from AT guns/tanks/TDs and even mortars (in some desperate cases) to render piles of front armor useless. AND if they are immobilized then say goodbye to the poor; Stug this turn or the next. At least tanks can turn their turrets and can engage their main gun and at least 1 of their MGs (usually 2). against infantry and armor.

And in the late war I dont see the point in using Stugs unless you're trying to save on cost. IMHO a Tiger is worth 2-3 Stugs in effectiveness, a King Tiger around a platoon. I only use Stugs now as deterrents, hidden in the flanks or as last armored defense in my home VHes.

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Post #: 23
- 6/25/2003 8:22:05 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alexandra
[B]The lack of a turret doesn't matter at all. Not in the game, except when the TD's been immobilized? Why? As was earlier pointed out, any vehicle in the game can spin and dance like a ballerina. One can make an argument that a Stug is *better* to buy then an Panzer, becaue they are cheaper, so you can get more for the same point cost, and that the Stug's histroical disadvantge, the lack of a turret, does not enter into the game.

Alex [/B][/QUOTE]

correct.

should be changed, or price of turretless vehicles be higher !

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Post #: 24
- 6/25/2003 8:29:06 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]I sure love my elite Stugs in MCLV. They are deadly.:D [/B][/QUOTE]

you should see my KV2´s in russian steel. against inf the most deadly units i can imagine. it´s only a prob with them with own inf in nearby hexes and the KV opp. fires near them...

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Post #: 25
- 6/25/2003 8:33:14 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		speaking of non german units i must say, that M18 hellcats in the hand of a good US commander can be deadly. they are fast and hit hard. the 76mm can take out tigers from the side with ease.
( or not ? )

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Post #: 26
- 6/25/2003 10:49:45 PM   
Sentry

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 6/16/2003
From: Jõgeva,Estonia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank W.
[B]speaking of non german units i must say, that M18 hellcats in the hand of a good US commander can be deadly. they are fast and hit hard. the 76mm can take out tigers from the side with ease.
( or not ? ) [/B][/QUOTE]


Lol.....probably not id say.Reason i like M18 is that they are fast (though light armored) and they have many shots.Usually M18 can fire like 5 times even after movement but Tiger fires only 2.

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Post #: 27
- 6/26/2003 12:13:47 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		Got to remember the Stugs were elite, units. And they were also small and lower, so for the cost I always get some.


The US fast armor, you are correct they are deadly but you would think more german players would buy small AT guns the 28mm and 37mm AT, and the AT rifle can take out Hellcats, and even M10s from the side;)

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Post #: 28
- 6/26/2003 12:24:40 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank W.
[B]you should see my KV2´s in russian steel. against inf the most deadly units i can imagine. it´s only a prob with them with own inf in nearby hexes and the KV opp. fires near them... [/B][/QUOTE]

How many shots are you getting with an elite KV-2? When I have them in PBEM, they only get 2 shots and if you move much, it goes down to 1. My elite StuGs are getting about 4 shots, but of course they run out of ammo quickly if you shoot at everything.

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Post #: 29
- 6/26/2003 12:54:30 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		you are correct. the ROF of the KV2 is low.but it seems the get good OP fire values.

i just have lost a KV2 in scen no. 18 ( i believe ) in russian steel where you have to retreat some of your forces over a bridege and then blow it to prevent the germans following you.

this happens: the KV2 sitting in the mid of the bridge and german 150mm art barrage near the bridge lands blowing the eastern part of the bridge. than i blow the western part w/ the KV´s gun. it now was sitting serverall turns there and killing all kinds of german + hungarian inf units ( from one shot i got sometimes up to 7-8 casualities because they were all massing on the western shore of the river ). sadly now german tanks aproach and kill the KV. it had got up to 15-20 more kills only in this scen :D

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Post #: 30
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