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Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/9/2019 7:11:19 PM

DWReese

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Does anyone know anything about these type of ships. I see that they often work together, and I see that they are obviously tied to the USMC. I also see the they are operating F-35Bs from them. But, they really don't have any real defense weapons, or other offensive weapons, so they seem to be very dependent on other systems.

So, how are these ships typically used? Are they attached to a carrier group? Are destroyers and cruisers usually attached as escorts? Does anyone know? Can anyone enlighten me? I can't find anything at all other than listings of these type of ships being together. There are never any escorts mentioned.

Thanks.

Doug

Post #: 1

RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/9/2019 7:22:20 PM

Whicker

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not an answer at all, but I think I saw one of the San Antonio class ones off Camp Pendleton this week with an LCAC that had just launched. Kind of in rough weather too. It was an odd looking ship, saw it from an Amtrak train.

(in reply to DWReese)

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/9/2019 7:22:28 PM

Primarchx

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That's a big story, but in a nutshell ...

Typically an Amphibious Ready Group (ARG) is made up of a single LHA/LHD (America/Wasp-class) with an accompanying LPD (San Antonio-class) and LSD (Whidbey Island or Harper's Ferry-class). This will transport a USMC Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) made up of a Rifle Battalion as a Ground Combat Element (GCE) with a supporting cadre of aircraft including Harriers/Lightnings, Ospreys, Sea Cobras, etc as an Air Combat Element (ACE). The ARG ships have some level of self-protection armament but are usually assigned an escorting DDG or two. Those escort assignments often change as the ARG transits from one area of operations to another, say from the Med into the Red/Arabian Sea, etc.

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/9/2019 7:24:56 PM

TheOttoman

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These ships operate together in what is known as an Amphibious Ready Group (ARG) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphibious_ready_group).

The purpose of the ARG is to deploy Marines to a location reachable by sea but not necessarily by air or ground. Where a Carrier Strike Group (CSG) can project power (bombs) over the horizon with their planes there is no real mechanism to hold that territory, so an ARG can secure and hold beaches, ports, or locations reachable via sea. Any air units (AV-8B, OV-22, F-35, etc..) are meant to be used solely in support of getting the marines ashore and protecting them when they get there.

As you correctly pointed out, they don't have any real offensive or defensive arms to speak of. so they usually operate under the cover of a CSG, but it is not unheard of to have them operate with another CG and/or DD *or* within some sort of land based air cover.

< Message edited by TheOttoman -- 2/9/2019 7:26:44 PM >

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/9/2019 11:17:37 PM

DWReese

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Thanks to everyone who responded.

Their purpose is necessary and obvious, but I was more concerned if they were always assigned a certain, specific group of escorts that accompanied them everywhere that they went. I guess that, as was mentioned, they pick up some escorts along the way, and then get handed of to the next group as they proceed along. They do need protection, that's for sure.

Doug

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/9/2019 11:58:02 PM

Primarchx

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Yeah, in a high-intensity conflict they would need coverage. But for near anything else below that, an ARG is in good shape. They've got decent air self-protection RAM launchers for each ship, hundreds of pugnacious Marines ready to air or beach assault and an aircraft complement that can dish out a hurting - especially once the F-35B is more widely deployed.

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/10/2019 12:48:29 AM

Cik

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not to mention you have a bunch of planes.

with planes, you can increase the entropy of your opponents' hardware, thus disallowing him the possibility of launching aggressive actions against your person, persons, or equipment.

that is to say, convert his missile launchers/planes/boats/whatever into burning wreckage.

it's not something i'd sail directly into a threat ring, but as long as you are outside of it you're good.

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/10/2019 1:08:03 PM

kevinkins

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An example of a current ongoing operation in the North Arabian Sea to support action in Afghanistan:

"The Kearsarge ARG consists of Amphibious Squadron 6, the San Antonio-class amphibious transport dock ship USS Arlington (LPD 24), the Whidbey Island-class amphibious dock landing ship USS Fort McHenry (LSD 43), as well as Kearsarge and the 22nd MEU."

The Kearsarge ARG does not appear to be operating with a carrier strike group as CVN 74 Stennis has moved out for the region through the Indian Ocean. Looks like the Kearsarge may have replaced the Stennis. No mention of escorting DDGs. But I wouldn't be too surprised if they were there. Bit of trivia: when Amphibious Squadron contains a MEU it is then designated as an ARG.

Kevin

https://worldview.stratfor.com/article/us-naval-update-map-feb-7-2019

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/11/2019 5:02:49 PM

SeaQueen

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Here's My Intro to the Gator Navy:

The Wasp, San Antonio and Whidbey Island class ships are used to transport Marines for the purpose of conducting amphibious assault. They are America's first responders, appearing to evacuate embassies and assist in natural disasters all around the world. The centerpiece of the trio is the Wasp class, or one of its follow-on classes, The Makin Island and America classes. In the late 90s its place might be taken by an LPH or LHA. It is among the most complex warships to operate in the world. By most nation's standards it is an aircraft carrier, but it also has the well-deck function for it to conduct surface assault as well. It has almost all of the C3 functionality of a carrier, and in some ways more because it also contains command and control spaces for the embarked Marines to control a ground battle as well. Together, a formation of 3 ships, a Wasp-class, a Whidbey Island class, and a San Antonia Class would form an amphibious ready group (ARG). At all times, the United States keeps 3 ARGs at sea, one in the Atlantic, one in the Pacific, and one in the Persian Gulf, to act as part of our forward deployed naval forces (FDNF).

You'd only operate F-35Bs or Harriers off of a Wasp class. The others can't really do it in real life even if it works in the database.

You're right, a 3 ship ARG (LHD/LHA/LPH, LSD + LPD) depends heavily on its escorts, and the aviation combat element (ACE) from the embarked Marine Air Ground Task Force (MAGTF). Typically, together they transport a reinforced battlion sized formation of Marines called a Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU). They might also individually carry a smaller Special Purpose MAGTF (SPMAGTF) or if you put enough 3 ship ARGs together, you could transport the assault echelon of a Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB).

When you combine an ARG with a couple CRUDES and maybe a submarine or MPA, you get an expeditionary strike group (ESG). An ESG is the real combat formation because it combines the amphibious warfare functions of the ARG with offensive and defensive capabilities of a surface warship, most critically is the naval gun fire support (NGFS) necessary to support Marines ashore. Theoretically, this was the original planned purpose for the DDG-1000 class.

ESG/ARGs are not necessarily attached to a carrier. A carrier strike group (CSG) is a separate formation of warships. None the less, one of the preconditions for amphibious assault is local air dominance. Therefore in combat, it would be unlikely for an ESG/ARG to venture out from underneath the range of either carrier or land based air power in order to deliver its load of Marines. While the ESG/ARG formation has its own air power in the form of F-35B/Harrier, MH-60S, AH/UH-1, MV-22/CH-46, and CH-53 aircraft, it's relatively limited compared to a carrier air wing or land based air power.

While during the late 90s and early 2000s the Navy experimented with ESGs as fixed formations of warships that always deployed together in the same way that CSGs do, that concept has mostly fallen by the wayside, in part because ship count has declined a bit, and also because many of the "bread and butter" missions of an ARG don't typically require a surface combatant (e.g. humanitarian assistance/disaster relief). Now a days escorts are assigned to them on an ad hoc basis. They might be pulled from a CSG or they might be assigned from an independent destroyer squadron (DESRON) based on need.

Any questions?

quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Does anyone know anything about these type of ships. I see that they often work together, and I see that they are obviously tied to the USMC. I also see the they are operating F-35Bs from them. But, they really don't have any real defense weapons, or other offensive weapons, so they seem to be very dependent on other systems.

So, how are these ships typically used? Are they attached to a carrier group? Are destroyers and cruisers usually attached as escorts? Does anyone know? Can anyone enlighten me? I can't find anything at all other than listings of these type of ships being together. There are never any escorts mentioned.

Thanks.

Doug

< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 2/11/2019 5:16:13 PM >

(in reply to DWReese)

Post #: 9

RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/11/2019 7:36:01 PM

DWReese

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Thanks, Kevin.

I saved that site and will use it for future reference.

Doug

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/11/2019 7:52:03 PM

DWReese

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Excellent analysis. Thank you so much. It's nice to have your level of expertise around here for us to tap into. <lol>

And, of course I have some questions. Just two (actually, they are kind of related):

Regarding escorts, I assume that ALL ships are attached to a carrier group. So, it would be some carrier group (probably outside of the area) that would lend one of its ships to the ARG. Is that right, or are there always some loose ships that aren't attached to a carrier group that could be used?

The current carrier groups now seem to a 1 CG, and 3 DDGs assigned to the carrier. So, if a DDG from this group would be assigned to as an escort to an ASG, then the carrier group would temporarily be a ship short, is that correct?

Thanks again for your very detailed explanation.

Doug

(in reply to SeaQueen)

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/11/2019 10:09:27 PM

SeaQueen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese
Regarding escorts, I assume that ALL ships are attached to a carrier group. So, it would be some carrier group (probably outside of the area) that would lend one of its ships to the ARG. Is that right, or are there always some loose ships that aren't attached to a carrier group that could be used?

It depends. Some CSGs are basically fixed on paper. For example, in Yokosuka, Japan, the USS Ronald Reagan is forward deployed as the flag ship for carrier strike group 5 (CSG-5). CSG-5 consists of USS Barry, USS Curtis Wilbur, USS John S. McCain, USS Fitzgerald, USS Stetham, USS Benfold, USS McCampbell, USS Mustin, USS Antiedam, USS Chancellorville, and USS Shiloh. They might detach a few of them from time to time (to be part of a SAG, or participate in an exercise of some kind independent of the carrier), but the default is that they "belong" to CSG-5.

There are other ships which are also in Japan, though, which are not part of CSG-5. For example in Sasebo, there's the gators from PHIBRON 11, which belong to Expeditionary Strike Group 7, along with a bunch of minesweepers. The FDNF in Japan is a little bit atypical, though, because it's kind of muscular. They're forward, so they're meant to be muscular quick response force for any possible Asian crisis. The ESG Commander, then might pull his amphibs from PHIBRON 11 and then the CSG-5 might detach a cruiser and a destroyer (for example) and put them under ESG-7, or they might link up with other CRUDES sent from Hawaii or San Diego.

Other CSGs are not quite so fixed. CSG-2 out of Norfolk, for example, has deployed with a variety of different CRUDES as escorts in recent years, drawn of any of several different type commands in Norfolk and possibly submarines if there's a submarine or two under direct command of the carrier.

Notionally, a CSG consists of a carrier, 4-5 DDGs, 2 CGs, maybe an FFG or LCS or two, a submarine, and an MPA. In practice, the composition varies widely.

Notionally, an ESG consists of an LHD, an LPD, and an LSD with 2 DDG and a CG, maybe an FFG or LCS or two, plus a submarine and an MPA. In practice that too varies widely, like in the above example, which has a bunch of minesweepers attached to it.

quote:

The current carrier groups now seem to a 1 CG, and 3 DDGs assigned to the carrier. So, if a DDG from this group would be assigned to as an escort to an ARG, then the carrier group would temporarily be a ship short, is that correct?

It's possible. It's also possible that the ARG deployed with the escort and they didn't have to borrow anything from the CSG, or they linked up with other ships on deployment from CONUS.

The organization of the Navy is different from the organization of land forces like the Army where things are more standardized in a "one size fits all" mindset. With certain exceptions, usually in the case of forward deployed forces, the Navy is more free-flowing, and customizable, detaching and deploying in many different size force packages, depending on many variables and constrained in part just by what's available given the work up cycles. Ultimately, the arbiter of who gets what would be the joint force maritime component commanders (JFMCC) in theater, typically a numbered fleet commander.

Probably the best way to get a sense of how warships deploy and organize themselves is to go on the Navy's website and start reading their press releases. Look at this one for example:

https://www.navy.mil/submit/display.asp?story_id=95484

So... the USS Ronald Reagan, deployed with the USS Chancellorsville, USS Shiloh, and an unspecified number of DDGs. It also describes how the USS Decatur, USS Momsen, and USS Spruance deployed independently in the same area in recent months as part of a SAG. In another article dated 3 months later, the USS Ronald Reagan (CSG-5) deployed with the USS Chancellorsville, the USS Barry and the USS Stetham. These are all routine deployments. In a crisis, the higher tensions rise, the more muscular and the response would be, so you'd expect to see more and more warships joining up with the CSG, ESG or deployed as independent SAGs.

Does that help?

< Message edited by SeaQueen -- 2/13/2019 7:20:30 PM >

(in reply to DWReese)

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/12/2019 12:50:53 AM

DWReese

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Yes. That helps immensely.

Thanks again for your detailed explanation.

Doug

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 2/13/2019 4:35:12 PM

henry1611

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This article may be of interest:

Study This Picture: The U.S. Navy Desperately Needs More of These Ships

Amphibious warfare forces will play a pivotal role in an era of renewed great power competition.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/study-picture-us-navy-desperately-needs-more-these-ships-44137

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 4/2/2019 10:59:37 AM

kevinkins

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More on this topic today:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/27253/u-s-amphibious-assault-ship-in-south-china-sea-with-unprecedentedly-large-load-of-f-35bs

Lots of juicy stuff.

Kevin

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 4/2/2019 1:57:02 PM

DWReese

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Thanks, Kevin.

Doug

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 4/2/2019 10:18:32 PM

Gunner98

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Doug

Lots of great responses above. I'm certainly no expert but did a bit of reading before putting together the Northern Fury organizations which are laid out here:

http://northernfury.us/nato/us/navy/amphibious/

I think it is in line with most of the comments above.

B

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 4/2/2019 10:56:50 PM

DWReese

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Excellent.

Thanks, Gunner.

Doug

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 4/2/2019 11:41:42 PM

kevinkins

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This article compliments past writings about distributive low footprint short lived basing ideas for the Western Pacific - or within NATOs sphere. Another new article, but it updates concepts from a few years ago. The article mentions wargames but with no detail at all. I am not sure if I am reading the media reports correctly, but is seems the HIMARS is taking a prominent role in many deterient roles expressed via the press. Seems the US Army is transitioning.

https://breakingdefense.com/2019/04/armys-multi-domain-unit-a-game-changer-in-future-war/

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 4/3/2019 11:02:00 AM

c3k

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^^^
Great links. Thanks.

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 5/8/2019 11:30:03 AM

kevinkins

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Nice summary of the San Antonio class:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2019/05/07/lpd-the-u-s-navys-most-versatile-vessel-isnt-a-destroyer-or-a-submarine/#4ea462b8525c

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 5/9/2019 2:14:52 AM

SeaQueen

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One of the more fun scenarios I can imagine would be using small special operations craft based on an independent LPD with maybe an MH-60S or R aboard to hunt pirate boats.

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 5/9/2019 12:34:50 PM

kevinkins

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Nice idea. Maybe around the Philippines cooperating with their military to make the scenario a bit larger.

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 5/9/2019 3:31:10 PM

SeaQueen

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I was thinking more along the lines of the Gulf of Aden, but Philippines... sure.

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 5/9/2019 9:46:20 PM

lumiere

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Without doubt this thread is for me who suddenly interested in the amphibious operations from yesterday. Thanks!

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 5/9/2019 10:20:18 PM

magi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

Here's My Intro to the Gator Navy:

The Wasp, San Antonio and Whidbey Island class ships are used to transport Marines for the purpose of conducting amphibious assault. They are America's first responders, appearing to evacuate embassies and assist in natural disasters all around the world. The centerpiece of the trio is the Wasp class, or one of its follow-on classes, The Makin Island and America classes. In the late 90s its place might be taken by an LPH or LHA. It is among the most complex warships to operate in the world. By most nation's standards it is an aircraft carrier, but it also has the well-deck function for it to conduct surface assault as well. It has almost all of the C3 functionality of a carrier, and in some ways more because it also contains command and control spaces for the embarked Marines to control a ground battle as well. Together, a formation of 3 ships, a Wasp-class, a Whidbey Island class, and a San Antonia Class would form an amphibious ready group (ARG). At all times, the United States keeps 3 ARGs at sea, one in the Atlantic, one in the Pacific, and one in the Persian Gulf, to act as part of our forward deployed naval forces (FDNF).

You'd only operate F-35Bs or Harriers off of a Wasp class. The others can't really do it in real life even if it works in the database.

You're right, a 3 ship ARG (LHD/LHA/LPH, LSD + LPD) depends heavily on its escorts, and the aviation combat element (ACE) from the embarked Marine Air Ground Task Force (MAGTF). Typically, together they transport a reinforced battlion sized formation of Marines called a Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU). They might also individually carry a smaller Special Purpose MAGTF (SPMAGTF) or if you put enough 3 ship ARGs together, you could transport the assault echelon of a Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB).

When you combine an ARG with a couple CRUDES and maybe a submarine or MPA, you get an expeditionary strike group (ESG). An ESG is the real combat formation because it combines the amphibious warfare functions of the ARG with offensive and defensive capabilities of a surface warship, most critically is the naval gun fire support (NGFS) necessary to support Marines ashore. Theoretically, this was the original planned purpose for the DDG-1000 class.

ESG/ARGs are not necessarily attached to a carrier. A carrier strike group (CSG) is a separate formation of warships. None the less, one of the preconditions for amphibious assault is local air dominance. Therefore in combat, it would be unlikely for an ESG/ARG to venture out from underneath the range of either carrier or land based air power in order to deliver its load of Marines. While the ESG/ARG formation has its own air power in the form of F-35B/Harrier, MH-60S, AH/UH-1, MV-22/CH-46, and CH-53 aircraft, it's relatively limited compared to a carrier air wing or land based air power.

While during the late 90s and early 2000s the Navy experimented with ESGs as fixed formations of warships that always deployed together in the same way that CSGs do, that concept has mostly fallen by the wayside, in part because ship count has declined a bit, and also because many of the "bread and butter" missions of an ARG don't typically require a surface combatant (e.g. humanitarian assistance/disaster relief). Now a days escorts are assigned to them on an ad hoc basis. They might be pulled from a CSG or they might be assigned from an independent destroyer squadron (DESRON) based on need.

Any questions?

you did good......

< Message edited by magi -- 5/9/2019 10:21:52 PM >

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RE: Wasp/San Antonio/Whidby Island - 5/10/2019 7:49:33 PM

ExNusquam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

I was thinking more along the lines of the Gulf of Aden, but Philippines... sure.

I once built a counter-piracy scenario focusing on MDA in the GoA. In order to make it worth playing I needed game-crawling levels of neutral vessels and a bunch of random interesting events over a full day. Eventually it got lost in a HDD swap and I just let it die.

I'd certainly be interested to see your take on it.

(in reply to SeaQueen)

Post #: 27