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Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 10:34:20 AM

Searry

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I seem to be really struggling on every front since my troops have no staying power. Either they retreat after an attack, or stay and get destroyed the same turn. I am not really even doing anything wrong, just defending but there seems to be no way to prevent losing Egypt and China. France was a ridiculously easy job for the Germans.
What is the strategy for the Allies? First, I would just want the units to not get destroyed. I know about morale and readiness but they don't really get up.

Post #: 1

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 1:30:20 PM

GrayNemesis

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Joined: 1/8/2018
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The game heavily favors the Axis, I am done with it until some balancing is incorporated.

(in reply to Searry)

Post #: 2

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 2:57:53 PM

Hubert Cater

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Generally speaking the Allies will lose heavily and badly in Poland, France and even in the early stages of the campaign in the USSR. The ideal tipping point is in mid 1942 where the Allies can slowly start to push back and only after all the Allied war machines (especially the US) and economies are in full swing and the numbers start to favour the Allies. Typically you shouldn't expect much from the Allies in the first few years, as was the case historically, and this gives the Axis a chance to potentially win the war past 1942 and depending on just how well they've done in those first few years.

However, depending on game play and potential skill level mismatches between opponents, the end results can vary and while one side may seem to be favoured over another early in this release, we'd still suggest that more games be played before we make any further changes.

The main reasons for this is that in some reports so far, the win record in head to head matches still seems to favour the Allies, and from experience in the past and especially in our previous release War in Europe, it was strongly felt that there too the Axis had an advantage until after dozens of head to head matches indicated that the Allies had the slight edge.

There is a lot of cause and effect in play and very often a battle lost here and there does not indicate the final result of the overall war. For example, Axis players may go heavily in towards Egypt, but this may and often does come at the cost of the war if they are unable to have an effective victory in the USSR.

One suggestion I could make, is to perhaps try a game as Axis against a strong Allied opponent to not only see how the balance plays out, but to also possibly learn what an effective overall Allied stragegy might look like. It might change your opinion, or if it does not, it will help us to learn what changes do indeed need to be made in the end.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 3/4/2019 2:58:44 PM >

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Post #: 3

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 3:18:28 PM

ringoblood

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Joined: 3/10/2018
From: USA
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Have you guys played through the years of the campaign, i mean the historical years. Of course its gonna favor the Axis in early and even mid years of the war, it did in real life. But as you get to the closing years the Allies crash the Axis Historical. Be Patient and play.

edit- But of course Hubert beat me as i typed my post so did he, lol

< Message edited by ringoblood -- 3/4/2019 3:20:02 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 3:19:23 PM

gamer78

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Joined: 8/17/2011
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I've played Assault on Democracy pbem through 1945 before this game but I think defending Egypt- which I've lost easily- in this version very difficult against similar level players. Axis concentration on Egypt may delay German advance on Russia but still they have bigger numbers than Russian defenders. Currently 1942 in our pbem game. Late inf tech didn't help much Russians. Convoy raiding is another thing hard to stop. Which will crumble economy to reinforce in Australia.

< Message edited by gamer78 -- 3/4/2019 3:25:18 PM >

(in reply to Hubert Cater)

Post #: 5

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 3:27:53 PM

eriador08

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Normally i play way more as axis than allies, because my friend prefers allies. But i won both pbem games as allies against stranger opponents online. I am not that good of a player, so i would guess that balance is not so off.

I found no clear answer how to stop japan as china. Its a really though situation there.
France has to be a easy ride. I think there is no other way to simulate the failures of the french army or else too much games would end after a few turns.

If the axis player really wants to take egypt, then he can get it. The question then is, how much time and troops are needed for him. The only way there is to make the axis pay for every step and play for time.

For the first years you will naturally lose way more units. When you lose them, try to make sure, that they are in supply for cheap rebuys.

I guess the first real counterattacks can take place in late 1942. Around then the balance can tip in favor of the allies, because of their economy. Invest in industrial tech!

This is also where i like to strike the axis. Raid their convoylines with subs and strike their economy with heavy bombers. 4-5 heavy bombers in GB can do wonders, especially against an enemy who neglects them.

Use diplomacy to gain new allies or turn others away from the axis. Sweden is a good example. Bring them a few percent into your direction and they stop convoys for germany.

I also like to strike Italy first. They have few morale. A victory in africa and a few landings in italian costal citys can bring them down. Its very costly to defend their mainland and rebuild the front after they collapse. This is how i won one of my games.

In the pacific i regularly try to just hold out till i finish germany. You have to make priorities. Sometimes burma can be a good spot for a push. If the eastern front allows it attack the japanese with the soviets.

I will make more games with the allies to test balance. One is currently running and still undecided.

(in reply to GrayNemesis)

Post #: 6

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 4:44:25 PM

ElvisJJonesRambo

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Even if you take a major beatdown in China, that's certainly not the end of the game. It takes a "certain type of player" to be good in the Japan/China 1939 early struggle. Some guys don't about taking damage as Japs in order to speed the process. They use 3-prong attacks & trash their carriers. I've gotten my ass kicked several times as the Chinese, but I've never lost the country. As the Jap player, I prefer to be more precise, I use this front as a training ground. Been sending Heavy Artillery for kicks & giggles, because that war ain't gonna end. Don't get caught up in the Japan/China battle. Long as something absurd doesn't happen, you'll be fine.

France, the game is not won/lost here either. Just plan on losing in June/July 1940. I got my royal ass kicked by Plastilin. Wasn't really paying close attention to the replay, dude caught some global warming weather & sliced me in November 1939, think he took Paris in January 1940? Now, it happens. I was sleeping, couldn't get the Brits into position. Totally threw me under the bus.

Egypt, now this arena is very, very interesting. Takes MMPs, time, and units for the Axis to punch through. Yes, they should be able to do this, but there is a cost. On the flip side, the British can go "all-out" to save Egypt and try to dominate the Mediterranean front.

To those struggling with the Allies, well, you need some more data before condemning the scenario. My record is 2-1 as Allies. It's a long game, like a poker tournament. You're not going to win everyhand. Be willing to drop your pride, wait sometimes, give territory. Additionally, you MUST be careful what Tech/Units you're buying with British. You might not need ASW, maybe Ground Tech or Air Tech. Depends what your opponent is doing. British can "tempt the opponent to do Sealion", force them to prove that Axis player has the ability. Make them call your bluff. Try buying some "odd units" or mix your strategy. Think of what tasks you'll save for the Yanks. If Axis is going cookie cutter, wait on your buys, save some MMPs for couple turns before you commit.

Either way, whosoever reads this message, and says "Axis always wins", I'll play you. Set up the game, send me password. Would like you to prove it.

Blue Hawaii,
-EJR

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Post #: 7

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 5:17:45 PM

sveint

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In my opinion the game should be balanced around a historical result, not around 50/50 Axis/Allied wins.

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Post #: 8

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 5:33:58 PM

ringoblood

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

In my opinion the game should be balanced around a historical result, not around 50/50 Axis/Allied wins.

Agreed

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Post #: 9

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 5:45:30 PM

ElvisJJonesRambo

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End of game "point system" calculation from the game would be cool.

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Without Him, I could do nothing
Without Him, I'd surely fail
Without Him, I would be drifting
Like a ship without a sail

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Post #: 10

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 6:02:54 PM

eriador08

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I must disagree. I like even odds against my opponent. A more historical situation would be less of a game with many options and more of simulation with more or less predicted outcome.

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Post #: 11

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 6:07:46 PM

ElvisJJonesRambo

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Sure, lets play. I'm Allies, I won every time, you suck. Games would only take few seconds to pick sides. Then you're done. More time for the casino or watering my plants.

< Message edited by ElvisJJonesRambo -- 3/4/2019 6:08:44 PM >

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Post #: 12

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 6:30:05 PM

sveint

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Balanced around a historical result doesn't mean the Allies win every time. It means the odds are in favour of the Allies in the long run.

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Post #: 13

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 6:34:33 PM

GrayNemesis

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Main problem is that I have yet to to see Russia not surrender or the Axis stopped in Africa. In War in Europe this was not the case. How is this explained?

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Post #: 14

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 6:52:53 PM

eriador08

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Which means that allies win most of the time. Like i said i am in favor of 50/50 odds.

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Post #: 15

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 6:55:34 PM

eriador08

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Game 4 in the Elvis Gold Records state something else

. But sure, i am always in for a game, axis or allies.

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Post #: 16

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 7:10:08 PM

Searry

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If a game is too much based on history it doesn't work that well. Back to the balance, I think the allies at least need more free tanks and infantry weapons 1 in the start.

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Post #: 17

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 7:11:02 PM

ElvisJJonesRambo

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Set it up, send me password in message. You pick sides. Yeah, i got my ass kicked in France. Wasn't even paying attention to know how. Then again, i need coffee & beer to settle my nerves. Need my A-game.

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Post #: 18

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 7:14:50 PM

eriador08

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I dont know if more tanks and inf1 from start would do so well. I guess it would slow axis down too much.

< Message edited by eriador08 -- 3/4/2019 7:16:32 PM >

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Post #: 19

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 8:06:49 PM

BillRunacre

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Hi everyone

We certainly aim for balance, and are listening to this and other conversations. With so many variables to consider, including the extent of each player's experience, strategies pursued, and whether the game is fought against the AI (and then there's the question of difficulty level) or in Multiplayer... well, this is why your feedback is appreciated and essentially necessary.

Just to add that the Race to Victory campaigns are aimed for Multiplayer because they give the Axis the opportunity to gain a victory in 1945 by simply holding out and doing better than historically, meaning that the Axis have an incentive to fight on even if they don't achieve decisive successes in the earlier years of the war.

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Post #: 20

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/4/2019 11:22:19 PM

gamer78

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Maybe for historical balance Allies sub factions should be looked at. Egypt can be lost or not from only good use of navy? I don't think Russia good at defending. Different skill level of players probably research appropriate techs. But still it may need additional HQ, air units and maybe automatic garrisons. My opponent use extra mpp to capture Egypt and was late in Soviet war but as playing Russia doesn't show it will get any better. It will only delay.

Race to Victory campaign probably result in Axis victory on same level players.

(in reply to BillRunacre)

Post #: 21

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/5/2019 12:25:14 AM

ThunderLizard11

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Not sure OP did this already but need to double up on infantry tech and infantry weapons early. Uninvest in artillery and industrial. Also invest in command and control. There's a bunch of tips on China/USSR in other recent threads.

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Post #: 22

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/5/2019 12:42:38 AM

Searry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

Not sure OP did this already but need to double up on infantry tech and infantry weapons early. Uninvest in artillery and industrial. Also invest in command and control. There's a bunch of tips on China/USSR in other recent threads.

Double up? Uninvest?

(in reply to ThunderLizard11)

Post #: 23

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/5/2019 7:45:14 AM

EarlyDoors

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I've taken a beating as the Allies in PBEM but I've learned even more

There are some subtleties in the combat functions described in the manual that newbies like me overlook.

I think the balance is right and I'm looking forward to proving that in my next game.

(in reply to Searry)

Post #: 24

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/5/2019 1:38:01 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GrayNemesis

Main problem is that I have yet to to see Russia not surrender or the Axis stopped in Africa. In War in Europe this was not the case. How is this explained?

Hi GrayNemisis,

Could you tell me is this against the Axis AI, or from multiplayer games when you play the Allies? If it is against the AI, could you tell me which difficulty level you are playing?

I only ask as for the next build, I have made some adjustments to the Veteran level to give the Axis AI a few less bonus units for the invasion of the USSR.

Hubert

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Post #: 25

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/5/2019 2:36:55 PM

Searry

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I think multiplayer balance should be a big focus for a patch.

(in reply to Hubert Cater)

Post #: 26

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/5/2019 2:50:49 PM

Hubert Cater

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Thanks Searry, I've just put together a poll so we can get a better idea on this:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4602362

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Post #: 27

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/5/2019 6:24:22 PM

Xsillione

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Uninvest: sell the chit in fringe ir no use tech chits, like artillery.

Double up: Invest two chit in very important techs, like infantry weapons and infantry warfare, even if only one level remained (or exist), and than after researched, sell the now useless extra chit for half back. This way you can get these techs faster at a small price compared to there usefulness. This also can be used in other techs with more levels go go through them faster

(in reply to Searry)

Post #: 28

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/6/2019 1:55:05 AM

Christolos

Posts: 953
Joined: 4/24/2014
From: Montreal, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Generally speaking the Allies will lose heavily and badly in Poland, France and even in the early stages of the campaign in the USSR. The ideal tipping point is in mid 1942 where the Allies can slowly start to push back and only after all the Allied war machines (especially the US) and economies are in full swing and the numbers start to favour the Allies. Typically you shouldn't expect much from the Allies in the first few years, as was the case historically, and this gives the Axis a chance to potentially win the war past 1942 and depending on just how well they've done in those first few years.

However, depending on game play and potential skill level mismatches between opponents, the end results can vary and while one side may seem to be favoured over another early in this release, we'd still suggest that more games be played before we make any further changes.

The main reasons for this is that in some reports so far, the win record in head to head matches still seems to favour the Allies, and from experience in the past and especially in our previous release War in Europe, it was strongly felt that there too the Axis had an advantage until after dozens of head to head matches indicated that the Allies had the slight edge.

There is a lot of cause and effect in play and very often a battle lost here and there does not indicate the final result of the overall war. For example, Axis players may go heavily in towards Egypt, but this may and often does come at the cost of the war if they are unable to have an effective victory in the USSR.

One suggestion I could make, is to perhaps try a game as Axis against a strong Allied opponent to not only see how the balance plays out, but to also possibly learn what an effective overall Allied stragegy might look like. It might change your opinion, or if it does not, it will help us to learn what changes do indeed need to be made in the end.

Hope this helps,
Hubert

+1

The game is quite complex but can indeed lead to a tipping point in mid 1942. It is not a simple matter to declare which way the game is balanced with so many variables, including the relative skills of the opponents playing a particular side.

C

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�Excellence is never an accident. It is always the result of high intention, sincere effort, and intelligent execution; it represents the wise choice of many alternatives - choice, not chance, determines your destiny.�

-Aristotle-

(in reply to Hubert Cater)

Post #: 29

RE: Multiplayer balance as the allies - 3/6/2019 2:21:18 AM

ElvisJJonesRambo

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I will say this. Against above average players, there's not much margin to "goof off". I lost a game buying too many Axis toys. Dude put the "all chits" to Infantry strategy. Made casual mistakes in Africa. Tried gamey comeback in Spain, lost. What was weird, Romania did not join. Think that has to do with Africa????

(in reply to Christolos)

Post #: 30

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