RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J)

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/11/2019 9:29:48 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

...like the way the Kikka can be. I have sandboxed it, and they can penetrate a 3000 plane CAP from a deathstar. The end game mechanics changes a lot when one 36 plane squadron can get 5-10 hits on fleet carriers.
...

I understand the sandbox results (never tested myself), but with the range involved, would it actually work? Do players actually bring the DS within 4 hexes of shore? Just asking here. Against the AI I do, but against a player I don't think I would � have to think about that some more.

Well, yes. It's been sitting one hex off of Shanghai for about 7-10 days now!

Dan has consistently brought the DS to within 1-2 hexes of major Japanese bases between Honshu and Hokkaido as well. I've not chosen to test out an all-out strike yet.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/11/2019 10:43:48 AM

RangerJoe

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Just to let you know, I do comment on Dan's AAR. I had looked at yours up to mid' June 1942.

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Post #: 152

RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/11/2019 9:25:35 PM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Holy cow, guys! This is crazy, but really interesting. The game really hasn't started yet. Mike is working on his massive 8 Dec turn right now. He's taking a long weekend for his first wedding anniversary so I hope the slacker gets the turn back to me before he goes MIA. I really like the NF discussion. I'm using it in my other game. I've been having a hard time finding the units in that game so this helps immensely. Thanks!

I have made some decisions on my fighter program (and R&D in general). Once I get it all worked out, I'll post it. It's in my head, but I need to put it on paper. My brain is old...

I think you've had solid input from everyone else regarding R&D.

Now I'll upset the boat and suggest a radical proposition for the IJA R&D:

- Do absolutely no R&D or production of any Helen model.
- Improvise with Sally & Lily (including DB varients)
- Put maximum effort into accelerating Peggy T and Ki-74

I suggest this as the Helen is only a series of marginal improvement over the Lily/Sally.

The Peggy T is really a game-changer for the IJNAF, and the 74 gives you a lot of defence in depth. The Helen is a bit of a letdown in comparison.

Interesting. I've heard most of your discussion about the above planes elsewhere. I like the Helen because of the armor it eventually gets. Let me look closer at that.

Petty T - yeah, I'm going to allocate some R&D factories to it this time around.

Ki-74? I don't even know which plane that is! Gotta check it out.

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Post #: 153

RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/11/2019 9:29:18 PM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The game really hasn't started yet. Mike is working on his massive 8 Dec turn right now.

Another thing on my to do list is to see if it's possible to flatten Cagayan with a Bombardment task force and invade asap to try and kill his 4E bombers on the ground?

I have 16 Division, 2 or 3 tank regiments and 1-2 small units allocated to Mindinao to take that place quickly. They'll be landing all around the island moving toward the middle. I hope to take Cagayan pretty quickly, just for the reason you mentioned. I hadn't considered bombarding Cagayan because I wanted my surface fleets available to counter Houston and Boise, but it looks like they're fleeing SW. I have the turn and am working it now. Bombarding Cagayan may be something that happens soon.

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Post #: 154

RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/11/2019 9:38:27 PM

DanSez

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Ki-74 Patsy
a mid 45 level bomber
extremely long ranged
smaller payload than Peggy
a bit faster max speed

Never been in the position to use them. Without massive investment you won't see them till 4th quarter 44. How many game make it to 45?

< Message edited by DanSez -- 3/11/2019 9:41:22 PM >

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Post #: 155

RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/11/2019 9:45:27 PM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DanSez

Ki-74 Patsy
a mid 45 level bomber
extremely long ranged
smaller payload than Peggy
a bit faster max speed

Never been in the position to use them. Without massive investment you won't see them till 4th quarter 44. How many game make it to 45?

Thanks. Yeah, I figured it out as I kept reading. I need to look up its stats. I've never really considered it, probably because it arrives so late.

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Post #: 156

RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/12/2019 4:12:07 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

...like the way the Kikka can be. I have sandboxed it, and they can penetrate a 3000 plane CAP from a deathstar. The end game mechanics changes a lot when one 36 plane squadron can get 5-10 hits on fleet carriers.
...

I understand the sandbox results (never tested myself), but with the range involved, would it actually work? Do players actually bring the DS within 4 hexes of shore? Just asking here. Against the AI I do, but against a player I don't think I would � have to think about that some more.

Well, yes. It's been sitting one hex off of Shanghai for about 7-10 days now!

Dan has consistently brought the DS to within 1-2 hexes of major Japanese bases between Honshu and Hokkaido as well. I've not chosen to test out an all-out strike yet.

OK, so now I will have to sandbox those. If I confirm Lowpe's assertion, I may have to make some changes to my RnD plans �
800kg @ 430 mph � yeah, I can see that getting through both the flak and the CAP. $$$$, but if it can keep the DS offshore even, it would be worth it.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/12/2019 6:59:56 PM

rustysi

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quote:

Ki-74, Sorry MM, I'm not a fan.

Only 3 hex more range than G3M, G3M takes no RnD and you get it in '42.

Get it, I too like the G3M. The difference is the other is an Army plane, so it may be useful as well.

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Post #: 158

RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/12/2019 7:02:04 PM

rustysi

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quote:

We can get the Helen, but IRL they didn't have that choice as they were just hangar queens

But this is a game and they work fine, and have armor too boot. Don't know how much that helps, but there it is.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/12/2019 8:27:58 PM

Mike Solli

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In my other game, I'm not really sure how much better the Helen did over the Sally. At the end of 1943, I have a boatload of highly experienced IJA bomber pilots. I guess that means something. *Shrug*

No Japanese bomber survives enemy fighters. None at all. Maybe it's a moot point arguing about which bomber to see shot down.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/12/2019 9:22:55 PM

Mike Solli

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8 Dec 41 (Remember, this is the first turn, so I didn�t have the opportunity to �do� anything.)

This was a massacre of the little boats. I had everything from CAs down to little TBs scattered all over the place trying to sink anything they could find. By the time night fell on 8 Dec, the following had been sunk by my surface ships and subs:

9x xAKL
8x xAK
4x PT
1 AVD
1 CMc

Basically, useless. I suspect some of my crews got some experience from all the gunnery practice. Not a single Japanese ship took any damage.

Now, by AO:

5 Fleet

I have nothing in the area.

4 Fleet

I have a complete ring of subs around the important Hawaiian Islands. Nothing has tried to enter or exit the ring.

Tarawa, Makin and Nauru were all liberated.

SE Fleet

I have nothing in the area�..yet.

SRA

I took Puerto Princessa with the thought of putting some naval search here. I suspect that by the time that happens, there won�t be any enemy ships in range.

Philippines: I took San Fernando with a regiment of 48 Division an SNLF battalion and 3x AS battalions (72 AS). An IJA BF will land soon bringing the AS up to 120.

I had a splendid day in the air over Manila/Clark Field. For the loss of 3 Zeros (which hurts a lot), a total of 50 Allied fighters were shot down. Yes, the Philippine Air Force was ravaged!

My plan for the Philippines will reveal itself over the next few days.

Malaya: I landed successfully at Mersing. Wave after wave of Vildebeasts and Hudsons, along with a smattering of other obsolete planes attacked. I had all of my Petes on CAP, all 19 of them. Maybe they threw off the aim of the bombers. They certainly didn�t shoot anything down. Flak got a handful.

The Aussie brigade there tried to bombard my troops and got plastered for their effort, ensuring I�ll beat them when I can attack (on 10 Dec).

My Zeros shot down 18 Buffalos over Singapore. All of the remaining planes in the northern half of Malaya (with the exception of Kuantan) have disappeared.

I ended losing 2 xAKs sunk and another two damaged. That was well worth the successful landing that will cut Singapore from the remainder of Malaya on 10 Dec.

No other landings occurred today.

Edit: Force Z, Houston, Boise and Marblehead have all vanished. I suspect I'll see them later.

Burma

Elements of 15 Army are crawling toward Burma.

China

Still trying to sort out the mess the Japanese Army finds itself in at this point in the war.

Other Stuff

I�ll post it tomorrow.

< Message edited by Mike Solli -- 3/12/2019 9:29:35 PM >

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/12/2019 10:02:24 PM

RangerJoe

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Congratulations.

Depending upon what you have at Mersing, put some on reserve (pursuit) so they will follow the shattered remains. A great way for armor to get into Singapore without a shock attack when they attack that base next to Singapore.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/12/2019 10:13:04 PM

mind_messing

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With the Ki-74 there's also the possibility to pick up easy margin VP's by raiding Allied rear-area port and air bases. I'm well aware that the Allied OOB is pretty stocked come 1945, so having the opportunity to try and exploit VP's from neglected disbanded ships in forgotten bases means the Allies need to do more work on the front end.

As with the majority of the late game, it's playing out the VP system for all it's worth to run down the clock.

quote:

Basically, useless. I suspect some of my crews got some experience from all the gunnery practice. Not a single Japanese ship took any damage.

Don't knock the value of crew experience. I had a bunch of CA's get to EXP in high 80's and 90's. That really helped to combat the Allied quality advantage as the war went on.

Did them absolutely no good at the end of the day, but it helped them eek out a longer existance.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 1:47:51 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

In my other game, I'm not really sure how much better the Helen did over the Sally. At the end of 1943, I have a boatload of highly experienced IJA bomber pilots. I guess that means something. *Shrug*

No Japanese bomber survives enemy fighters. None at all. Maybe it's a moot point arguing about which bomber to see shot down.

+1

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 1:54:06 AM

Mike Solli

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I'll post the 9 Dec turn tomorrow, but I'll leave you with this. Note that this is a 2 turn total:

Attachment (1)

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 2:05:02 AM

jdsrae

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The game really hasn't started yet. Mike is working on his massive 8 Dec turn right now.

Another thing on my to do list is to see if it's possible to flatten Cagayan with a Bombardment task force and invade asap to try and kill his 4E bombers on the ground?

I have 16 Division, 2 or 3 tank regiments and 1-2 small units allocated to Mindinao to take that place quickly. They'll be landing all around the island moving toward the middle. I hope to take Cagayan pretty quickly, just for the reason you mentioned. I hadn't considered bombarding Cagayan because I wanted my surface fleets available to counter Houston and Boise, but it looks like they're fleeing SW. I have the turn and am working it now. Bombarding Cagayan may be something that happens soon.

I�m working on my Philippines attack plan now and using one of your relatively few �free� Divs seems to be a bit of overkill for Mindanao.
You could probably change it to one of the orphaned Regts and achieve the same aim, freeing the 16th to support your main effort.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 2:08:00 AM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

The game really hasn't started yet. Mike is working on his massive 8 Dec turn right now.

Another thing on my to do list is to see if it's possible to flatten Cagayan with a Bombardment task force and invade asap to try and kill his 4E bombers on the ground?

I have 16 Division, 2 or 3 tank regiments and 1-2 small units allocated to Mindinao to take that place quickly. They'll be landing all around the island moving toward the middle. I hope to take Cagayan pretty quickly, just for the reason you mentioned. I hadn't considered bombarding Cagayan because I wanted my surface fleets available to counter Houston and Boise, but it looks like they're fleeing SW. I have the turn and am working it now. Bombarding Cagayan may be something that happens soon.

I�m working on my Philippines attack plan now and using one of your relatively few �free� Divs seems to be a bit of overkill for Mindanao.
You could probably change it to one of the orphaned Regts and achieve the same aim, freeing the 16th to support your main effort.

I'm hoping to clear Mindinao quickly to make it a nice bomber base for the drive south & west. 16 Div will drive to Davao and leave the clean up to the small units. I want them to get a couple of good hits in to smash some of the defenders. Then they will have done their work.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 4:30:48 AM

RangerJoe

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Jolo might be easier with a level 3 airfield. Single engine planes could operate from there and help smash the fleeing units as well as being a nice fighter base to support Borneo activities.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 7:00:36 AM

jdsrae

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16 Div should be back on Luzon in time for Christmas

< Message edited by jdsrae -- 3/13/2019 7:01:23 AM >

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 9:10:05 AM

Mike Solli

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16 Division isn't going to Luzon.

Luzon gets 48 Division, 65 Bde and a tank regiment. I hope to cut off Manila from Bataan. We'll see if it works. Divide and conquer. Once Bataan is isolated, 65 Bde gets to watch the artillery bombard them into oblivion.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 9:10:39 AM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Jolo might be easier with a level 3 airfield. Single engine planes could operate from there and help smash the fleeing units as well as being a nice fighter base to support Borneo activities.

There's some AS heading there also. Couple days out.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 10:35:01 AM

obvert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I'll post the 9 Dec turn tomorrow, but I'll leave you with this. Note that this is a 2 turn total:

Do some sweeping there?

Great results. Looks like Singers and Manila aren't going to fare well in this one.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 10:50:59 AM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
16 Division isn't going to Luzon. Luzon gets 48 Division, 65 Bde and a tank regiment. I hope to cut off Manila from Bataan. We'll see if it works. Divide and conquer. Once Bataan is isolated, 65 Bde gets to watch the artillery bombard them into oblivion.

Is 1ID + 1Bde + 1tk really enough? If he gets the gist of what's going on he is IMO perfectly capable to stall you in Manila, he has ample AV and arty for that. Not to mention Clark Field's terrain if you approach from the north.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 12:37:37 PM

ny59giants

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Command HQs - Don't forget to pair them up with Army/Corp HQs. Of course Southern Command goes for Singapore. Don't recall when NE Fleet/5th Fleet arrives in Ominato, but I would prep it for maybe Manila or Bataan. It is nice when that extra 90% adjusted Assault Value kicks in.

xAK(t) - What class or classes are you converting to temporary troop transports?

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 1:16:58 PM

Uncivil Engineer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
16 Division isn't going to Luzon. Luzon gets 48 Division, 65 Bde and a tank regiment. I hope to cut off Manila from Bataan. We'll see if it works. Divide and conquer. Once Bataan is isolated, 65 Bde gets to watch the artillery bombard them into oblivion.

Is 1ID + 1Bde + 1tk really enough? If he gets the gist of what's going on he is IMO perfectly capable to stall you in Manila, he has ample AV and arty for that. Not to mention Clark Field's terrain if you approach from the north.

Huh? Clark Field is x3 jungle rough no matter your axis of advance.

If Mindanao is secured by late December, 16 Div can load up and land at Batangas for a short march to Manila. I'm fairly certain the 48 Div, 65 Bde, and a tank regiment will not be able to take Clark Field by themselves. (Go ahead, prove me wrong.) They should be able to take Manila, depending on how the Allies split their defense - some at Clark, some at Manila. I think the smarter Allied strategy would be to cede Manila, suck as much supply as possible into Bataan, and defend with everything at Clark Field. As Japan you want to have a unit in the Clark Field hex when Manila falls, thereby preventing retreat to Clark (if the Allies decide to try to defend Manila).

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/13/2019 2:17:35 PM

Bif1961

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I decided not to defend Manila and concentrated on Clark and as he came into Clark I counter-attacked and threw him back out with high losses and disruption. The killer in PI is supplies, isolate it and wear down his supplies and then he will die easier and quicker.

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/14/2019 8:26:27 AM

GetAssista

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
16 Division isn't going to Luzon. Luzon gets 48 Division, 65 Bde and a tank regiment. I hope to cut off Manila from Bataan. We'll see if it works. Divide and conquer. Once Bataan is isolated, 65 Bde gets to watch the artillery bombard them into oblivion.

Is 1ID + 1Bde + 1tk really enough? If he gets the gist of what's going on he is IMO perfectly capable to stall you in Manila, he has ample AV and arty for that. Not to mention Clark Field's terrain if you approach from the north.

Huh? Clark Field is x3 jungle rough no matter your axis of advance.

If Mindanao is secured by late December, 16 Div can load up and land at Batangas for a short march to Manila. I'm fairly certain the 48 Div, 65 Bde, and a tank regiment will not be able to take Clark Field by themselves. (Go ahead, prove me wrong.) They should be able to take Manila, depending on how the Allies split their defense - some at Clark, some at Manila. I think the smarter Allied strategy would be to cede Manila, suck as much supply as possible into Bataan, and defend with everything at Clark Field. As Japan you want to have a unit in the Clark Field hex when Manila falls, thereby preventing retreat to Clark (if the Allies decide to try to defend Manila).

Huh, approach the final destination, Bataan. Mike can do it either from the south or north of Luzon. Not both with such a small force.
I cannot imagine Allies splitting their defence to cover empty vectors in force. Most of Luzon guys will surely be waiting for you on your main axis of advance (there can be only one with this setup). Manila is a supply production hub so it makes perfect sense to defend it as long as possible given the attacker is not overwhelming and cannot credibly threaten to split your forces by capturing Clark or making you retreat from Manila and away from Clark.

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Post #: 177

RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/14/2019 10:57:56 AM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
16 Division isn't going to Luzon. Luzon gets 48 Division, 65 Bde and a tank regiment. I hope to cut off Manila from Bataan. We'll see if it works. Divide and conquer. Once Bataan is isolated, 65 Bde gets to watch the artillery bombard them into oblivion.

Is 1ID + 1Bde + 1tk really enough? If he gets the gist of what's going on he is IMO perfectly capable to stall you in Manila, he has ample AV and arty for that. Not to mention Clark Field's terrain if you approach from the north.

Thanks guys (all of you!) for making me second guess my strategy. My thought was to have 48 Division sit in Clark, along with the other troops and all the artillery they brought along to cut the supply line from Manila to Bataan. Allied supply won't flow through an Allied Clark with Japanese troops sitting in there, will it?

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RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/14/2019 11:00:42 AM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants_MatrixForum

Command HQs - Don't forget to pair them up with Army/Corp HQs. Of course Southern Command goes for Singapore. Don't recall when NE Fleet/5th Fleet arrives in Ominato, but I would prep it for maybe Manila or Bataan. It is nice when that extra 90% adjusted Assault Value kicks in.

xAK(t) - What class or classes are you converting to temporary troop transports?

Good idea with the HQ in Ominato. Never thought of that.

Toho definitely. Some of the fast ones, but I'll have to find that list. It's not handy right now.

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Post #: 179

RE: Mike & Mike - USS America (A) vs. Mike (J) - 3/14/2019 11:14:45 AM

Mike Solli

Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline

9 Dec 41

This is the turn that hurts. After Mike�s Air Forces (Philippines & Singapore) were pounded yesterday, my air forces demolished them today, and there wasn�t anything Mike could do about it. On the flip side, I had could have taken Mersing and cut off Singapore today, but had to �survive� another bombardment there by the Aussie brigade.

Today�s crappy ship haul:

4x xAKL
3x xAK
1 AVP
1 CM
1 TK

Some of my ships are returning to port to rearm, some are hanging around just in case, and the rest are heading SW to try and catch some more riff raff.

5 Fleet

Nothing.

4 Fleet

Still nothing heading into or out of Pearl (nor did I expect anything so soon).

KB will be about 4-5 hexes from Wake tomorrow. They�ll provide support for the invading forces, which will be 3 hexes out tomorrow.

Tabiteuea was liberated.

SE Fleet

Nothing yet.

SRA

Malaya: The Aussie brigade bombarded my liberators at Mersing getting themselves trashed some more. I�m assaulting tomorrow and have a tank regiment and the 5 Division cav set to pursue. Regardless of where the Aussies retreat to, they�ll follow and cut off Singapore.

Five more Buffalos were shot down over Singapore at a cost of a Zero.

Philippines: A total of 18 Allied fighters rose over Manila and Clark, and 12 were shot down. Bombers got a couple more on the ground.

Tomorrow, the rest of the 48 Division will land at Lingayan. The idea here is to push on to Clark Field. If I can get lucky, I can take Clark Field and cut off the Allied troops at Manila. I doubt this happens, but it�s a plan, right?

Tomorrow, the 65 Brigade will land at the base just to the east of Manila. They�ll push into Manila. The thought here is for Mike to leave forces at Manila to defend it. It is unlikely the 65 Bde will take Manila, but if they cause some Allied forces to remain in Manila, it is more likely those forces will be cut off from Bataan.

It looks like a lot of Allied riff raff from the Philippines is heading east. I have some CL/DD groups along with Hosho & Zuiho in that area to pick them off.

Burma

Nada.

China

I�m attacking Hong Kong. We�ll see how it goes.

Other Stuff

I had a lot of rambling about air R&D that I just deleted. Stream of consciousness babble. I am going to try for the Ki-94. Only 1 factory needs to be the Ha-44, which is good.

Sam, George, Frank, the usual suspects for mid war. More later.

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Post #: 180

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