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The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 2/28/2019 11:36:14 AM

larryfulkerson

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As you may or may not know, my computer crashed about two weeks ago and took my D21 files with it so I'm having to start over and I'm at the end of the OOB moving units so I'm ready for the execution of the second combat round. I was checking out the map to make sure I haven't forgotten anything and I just happened to notice how many Soviet planes I shot down in the first combat round and the turn isn't over yet. I'm moving the planes as the front lines move and I'm coming into range of another crop of Soviet planes. Not many Soviet aircraft units survived the first round and the survivors are mostly at a far range. I've still got 80% of my turn left so I'm hoping to get another 4 combat rounds yet.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 2/28/2019 12:09:38 PM

larryfulkerson

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Here's what's going on in the middle. I'm trying to catch all the Soviet units before they can get away. I want to kill as many as possible. What would be ideal is to surround and isolate the target unit(s) for one turn and THEN kill them so that the damaged equipment won't go back to the pools but will be destroyed instead. In FITE2 there are units in the Axis OOB that have Soviet equipment in them. I'm guessing that this represents those units that used the captured Soviet weapons and ammo. Clever. I'm hoping to have this area all cleared up by the end of next turn.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/14/2019 10:54:40 PM

larryfulkerson

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Okay, it's T4 and I'm sneaking up on Minsk. About time. I feel like I'm way behind schedule. I'm going to try to surround the city before I take it down so that the Soviet damaged equipment won't go back to the pools. Every little bit helps. I'm going to have to start taking some risky-er risks in order to catch up with the schedule. My recon units are going to have to venture further out in front. I'm going to have to start railing the follow on forces to the front. I need to spread the units out more and bring up the brown-water boats to take a look up those rivers out in front of my troops.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/15/2019 2:56:36 AM

Hellen_slith

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LoL you are way ahead of me! I'm in November and still a few hundred kilometers from Kharkov! I let my AGS rest too much around Kiev, and didn't cross the Dneper until ... mid-September 1941? Plus, I messed up my supply net; was confused how to use the mobile supply points (I now know they have a limited radius LoL). Are you playing Elmer? He is tricky! well, sometimes ... lately seems he does some wacky things, like using rail points on a lot of flak and engineers. I read the PO is better in the latest version, but I am doing the version that came with the CD. Anyway, Looking forward to seeing how this game plays out for you! Cheers!

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/15/2019 6:55:50 AM

larryfulkerson

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Okay, I think I've moved everybody and I'm ready to pull the trigger and watch all the combats happen. I'm not expecting much to change. Most of the change happens during the second combat round because of units that had to move some of them can shoot in the second combat round without burning any extra rounds. This first combat round is scheduled to use only a single round for all the combats.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/15/2019 7:03:14 AM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen
LoL you are way ahead of me! I'm in November and still a few hundred kilometers from Kharkov! I let my AGS rest too much around Kiev, and didn't cross the Dneper until ... mid-September 1941? Plus, I messed up my supply net; was confused how to use the mobile supply points (I now know they have a limited radius LoL).

I have no idea if you mean that symbolically or poeticly or what....I'm still in T4 because I had to restart when my computer crashed. So I'm wondering how in the world I could be way ahead of you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen
Are you playing Elmer? He is tricky! well, sometimes ... lately seems he does some wacky things, like using rail points on a lot of flak and engineers. I read the PO is better in the latest version, but I am doing the version that came with the CD.

Yes I am. But like you I'm tempted to help out Elmer from time to time.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen
Anyway, Looking forward to seeing how this game plays out for you! Cheers!

Oh yeah? I'm watching your game.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/15/2019 7:27:32 AM

gliz2

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Larry just one gripe. I like the amount of focus on plannings and logistics. But why won't you do every now and then an overview what you intend to do for next couple of turns.
It's easier to comprehend what you did, what went wrong or if you exploitated an opportunity.

PS. Why you choose to kill as many Soviets as possible in first turns? I thought that rushing was found to be a better tactics?

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/15/2019 7:34:09 PM

Hellen_slith

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I just meant you make a lot more progress than I made at that point, and will probably make a lot better progress than I did. I'm just not as savvy about the game, not knowing a whole lot about the subtler mechanics of the game (not just the scene itself, but the whole game and how it works "under the hood"). But trying to learn, and reading your AARs helps a lot! Thanks!

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/15/2019 8:41:41 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellen
I just meant you make a lot more progress than I made at that point, and will probably make a lot better progress than I did. I'm just not as savvy about the game, not knowing a whole lot about the subtler mechanics of the game (not just the scene itself, but the whole game and how it works "under the hood"). But trying to learn, and reading your AARs helps a lot! Thanks!

I've been practising a lot. I've probably been through the early turns about 20 times now. So I've learned a little bit about what works in those situations. And besides, you're not doing so bad yourself. I've seen you do some good moves. And about the AAR, I'll see if I can't include more tips and tricks and more 'over my shoulder' stuff to help you along. I myself learn something almost every day.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/15/2019 8:48:31 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gliz2
Larry just one gripe. I like the amount of focus on plannings and logistics. But why won't you do every now and then an overview what you intend to do for next couple of turns.

It's easier to comprehend what you did, what went wrong or if you exploited an opportunity.

PS. Why you choose to kill as many Soviets as possible in first turns? I thought that rushing was found to be a better tactics?

You have an excellent point and yes, I can do that. And about killing the Soviets instead of zooming ahead. Um....I thought I'd use the fast movers, the Panzers and motorized divisions, to do the recon and the foot movers would be the follow on forces and it worked out pretty well I thought. Some of the Panzers started the game behind some of the foot troops and needed to wait for a hole to open up in the Soviet lines before zooming off. It didn't work out as well as I was hoping, I was aiming for Riga on turn one and couldn't pull it off. Congratulations to you because you did do it. I'll see if I can't come up with a credible long term plan and then try to stick to it.
I'm reading everything you publish and I like your AAR and I'm learning a lot from you. Keep up the good work.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/16/2019 3:16:14 PM

larryfulkerson

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It's T7 and this is the area around Minsk right now. I'm just about to storm the city and capture it. I was surprised to see Elmer rail almost all the units away from Minsk so that it had very few defenders left there. Other units have bypassed Minsk and are zooming on ahead to see if it's possible to capture a crossing over the river. I'd like to capture as many as possible. I need a lot of crossings because I think that will help the supply flow to the east side of the river. I'm expecting the supply level to be really low in the east side of the river.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/16/2019 3:36:56 PM

larryfulkerson

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Here's the area around Pskov right now and I've gotten there just after the Soviets manned these positiions. I lost the footrace again. I'd rather not lose a lot of people trying to force my way across the river at Pskov itself....I'd rather outflank them and roll up their lines destroying them as I go. I'm thinking Elmer isn't all that keen on pulling his units back to save them. I've seen him do it but not all the time. I'm moving NE with my units spread out to convert the hexes as the advance moves over the land. I'm trying to keep the aircraft near the front to provide the most support possible. The supply level is still okie dokie so there's no reason to stop just yet.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/17/2019 10:41:05 PM

larryfulkerson

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Elements of the 10th Panzer Division make their way across a vast open area and by now the Soviets have calibrated the killing zones and can fire at them from a long way off from behind cover. They can pin down most of the troops of this formation were it not for the tank that's organic to the unit. He can wipe out the machine gun nests and supress the enemy mortar fire. Progress is being made.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/17/2019 10:46:41 PM

larryfulkerson

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It's T8 and I'm only just now entering the peninsula leading to Narva. I'm going to see if I can't get some arty within range of those Soviet planes and bombard them. Drive them into reorg so they can't fly and just pound them lightly to keep up the losses but not so many as to kill the unit entirely because they will receive reinforcements and when they do you can kill them too.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/17/2019 11:07:21 PM

larryfulkerson

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I dropped some paratroopers out ahead of the recon units to capture and hold some bridges and key points so that the recon units can continue zooming through there and be further ahead then they would otherwise be. The paratroops are there to accellerate the advance if possible. I'm trying to move east as far as supply levels will allow hopefully before the Soviets are fortified behind their MLR. If they are then I'll stream the troops around them, isolate them, and keep going. I'd really like to be able to capture Moscow this time.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/18/2019 12:06:36 AM

larryfulkerson

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About 200km due north of Kiev my advance is running into lower supply levels and pretty soon we're going to have to pull up in good positions and wait for the rails to catch up, I checked the RR engineers and only one hex had a repaired rail in it. So my RR engineers need some motivation. Maybe a free beer after they are done with their shift for the day. Maybe I should bring in some girls to sing songs with them. It seems to work with the men that have battle fatigue.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/18/2019 3:54:26 AM

larryfulkerson

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I'm capturing some crossings over the river so the way is open to keep going and except for the low supply levels I would. I'm going to halt here and consolidate and refit and let the rails creep closer.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/18/2019 7:53:54 AM

larryfulkerson

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The Axis units are sneaking up on Orsha finally in T8. About time. I feel like I'm behind schedule and it's hard to make up the time. I had planned on moving and shooting for at least 10 turns or so and by then I should be into the low supply areas and need refit on most of the units so I can rest them during the mud season since there's not much to do then anyway. I'm thinking of pulling all the aircraft back to Germany during the mud season.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/18/2019 8:41:10 PM

danfrodo

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Hi Larry, I am slowly working my way toward tackling D21. Is the PO good enough to make it a solid challenge most of the way through if I am german? Russian? I saw some comments on the other current D21 thread and it said had to help the PO sometimes

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/18/2019 8:47:33 PM

larryfulkerson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: danfrodo
Hi Larry, I am slowly working my way toward tackling D21. Is the PO good enough to make it a solid challenge most of the way through if I am german? Russian? I saw some comments on the other current D21 thread and it said had to help the PO sometimes

I think the PO is not the greatest there is, but it does give a half decent fight. And the Soviet units are so plentiful that it's still an exciting scenario. D21 can't be played by the Soviet side because there's no PO for the Axis side. And I personally wouldn't try it as PBEM because FITE2 is so much better. I've never won a D21 game and the furtherest I've gotten to is about T60 or so. One of these days I'm going to go all the way. It's one of my obsessions.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/18/2019 9:24:39 PM

larryfulkerson

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It's T9 and this is the Pskov area now. I'm arriving there in force and I'm going to try to blast a hole in the Soviet lines since they are so sparse. I'm hoping to outflank them on the south end and move north.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/18/2019 9:39:43 PM

Hellen_slith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: danfrodo

I saw some comments on the other current D21 thread and it said had to help the PO sometimes

Hello, I hope you don't mind me chiming in here, since I am helping Elmer in D21. Just wanted to note reasons why.

This is not a "dig" at the creators of the scene, only my meager observations. I don't know how the PO works "under the hood".

When I "took over" the Soviets at turn 40 or so, to bolster the defenses of Leningrad and Kharkov, I was having problems w/ my system. Changing to Win7 compatibility (and turning "New Turn Rules" OFF) seems to have cured whatever was crashing the game on my system.

When I did look at Elmer's results up to then, I (as a stickler for formation and strategy) found that there were some things I would have done differently as a Soviet player. Don't get me wrong, Elmer was a challenge for me (but I'm just a Patzer ...)

Two things stood out, though: (1) Elmer seemed to have spent a lot of rail points moving up flak and engineers from the Far East .... whereas I would have chosen to focus on getting the infantry and armor up first, and, (2) Elmer seemed to "boondoggle" the formations to a certain extent, that is, he sent formations to positions that were not as "tight" as I would have liked to see them.

For example, I have spent much of the last Soviet move "re-forming" the 29th, 30th, and 31st Soviet Armys, so that they are in better communication and supply w/ their HQ and each other.

Don't get me wrong, Elmer is a fair opponent ... but, he is not human, and as a result does not have that "human quality" that makes a fleshly opponent so much more challenging and unpredictable.

I hope this helps! It is a fun scenario, please don't let my comments dissuade you from trying it!

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/18/2019 10:04:21 PM

gliz2

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Well last time I've let the Elmer do things he was just moving units around without any logic behind it (maybe it just wanted to use all the railtransport points).
On the other hand, playing as Soviets I have done a terrible mistake of committing too much units to Ukraine allowing Germans (also led by my hand) to swipe North. In result the Germans have captured Moskov in late August'41. So humans do bad big time as well ;)

PS. I think there must be some calculation Elmer does like X amount of rail transport points divided by Y amount of units that can be moved to A, B and C and then he goes for highest possible value (in terms of number of units transported).

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/19/2019 12:10:19 AM

larryfulkerson

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Here's the area between Minsk and Orsha right now. I'm trying to use the broad front approach to move up to the MLR ( main line of resistance ) as a solid line of troops with no infiltration routes between them. The supply level drops off a cliff on the east side of the river so this is just about as far as I can go right now. I have to refit the troops anyway. The rail lines have a long way to go to be truely useful. I feel like I'm behind schedule still.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/19/2019 1:51:22 PM

larryfulkerson

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Here's what it looks like in the Odessa area right now. The Rumanians and Hungarians are helping clear Bessarabia over to the river. I need to grab some of the river crossings over the river to the east in order to start a footrace to the Dneper River that flows through Kiev leading south to D-town. If I can get there before the Soviets can I think I can trap them, isolate them, surround them, and destroy them enmass. I'm going to just surround Odessa with the Rumanians and refit the besiegers long enough to get some RR arty down here to bombard the port.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/19/2019 10:54:17 PM

larryfulkerson

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I've found a spot in my front lines where there's gaps and holes in the front lines and I need to correct that stat. I've got an excess of troops both north and south of that position so I think I can fix that by next turn. I forced my way into Pskov the city and now I'm fighting for more crossings over the river(s) in that area. So far no partisans have appeared anywhere. Supply is still a problem in the south.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/19/2019 11:59:30 PM

larryfulkerson

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This is what Kiev looks like now. I'm trying to use a broad-front approach when moving east into the meeting engagement(s). No gaps this time. I have run out of combat units to stand in the front lines so I've recruited the cooks and bottle washers and more than one HQ unit. There's a paratrooper between my main forces and the Kiev defenders that has captured an airfield and it screems out to me to move a fighter group over there. ASAP. It's T9 already and I'm only this far from Kiev. I feel like I'm behind schedule. We're into the last half of July and I believe I'm supposed to be aligned up against the river by now with Kiev defenders being probed by my forces. I need to rail some RR arty to this AO and get them busy bombarding the Soviet arty.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/20/2019 5:59:29 AM

larryfulkerson

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I wanted to clear out the peninsula prior to my assaults on Narva but I'm only just now deploying units in that area along the coast. I'm going to have to deploy a large regiment to the west coast to deal with all the CD guns. There's some kind of advantage for capturing Talinin as I recall. I don't remember what the bonus is however. It's now T10 and I need to review the losses so far.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/20/2019 10:30:37 AM

gliz2

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Larry, with all due respect you WILL NOT get on schedule. There is no way a player can repeat the initial onslaught of the first two weeks of the campaign.
You can get better results in some parts of the front (especially in the North).
I think I will tweak the FITE2 and/or D-21 to start after the initial onslaught with variable weather conditions. This way the Germans stand a fair chance.

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RE: The D21 Road Not Taken.... - 3/20/2019 3:02:11 PM

danfrodo

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Thanks for the input Larry Hellen & Gliz2. I suppose the correct answer to my question is "play a human, dummy!" I also thought of picking up Grigsby's war in the east, hoping it has better AI response. I loved this east front game from long ago. Early 90s or some such? For now I'll hold off on D21 and fight some smaller stuff. And start doing PBEM sometime soon.

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