RE: Notes from a Small Island

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RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 4:15:43 PM

Canoerebel

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And, by the way, there's no such thing as "dog whistles" for white supremacists. Those people are in your face and proud of it and have no sense of decency and care nothing about concealing their beliefs. So putting up a monument showing the movement of respective Union and Confederate units at Cassville, Georgia, in 1964 to honor the centennial is not some secret handshake, nod-wink-nudge-nudge. No, when segregationists acted, they did so openly: Let's change the flag!

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 4111

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 4:16:21 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The graphic proves the point that the actual monuments were overwhelmingly erected during the era when the aging veterans were dying. That was done in tribute rather than as some kind of political statement.

It can still be both.

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Post #: 4112

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 4:17:49 PM

Canoerebel

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Yup. Camp Sumter, the National Cemetery, and the National Prisoner of War Museum are beautiful and moving.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bif1961

I agree with you he was a scapegoat for all the ills and evils of the war actually on both sides. Being a Swiss-American also probably helped him be chosen for this sacrifice. Major Wirz, by all accounts did the best who could with the limited resources available and showed no malice and tried to carry out his work as best he could. Many guards also died while staitoned there from the same illnesses that killed the PoWs. I visited Andersonville last year and as a 24 year Army veteran, who worked for 10 years on POW/MIA issues, 6 of those as a civilian intelligence officer at DIA, the National POW/MIA Center was a place of great interest to me.

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Post #: 4113

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 4:19:08 PM

Canoerebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The graphic proves the point that the actual monuments were overwhelmingly erected during the era when the aging veterans were dying. That was done in tribute rather than as some kind of political statement.

It can still be both.

There was no need to make such a political statement in Georgia. There was only one party. It was monolithic and unthreatened.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 4114

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 4:22:17 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

And, by the way, there's no such thing as "dog whistles" for white supremacists. Those people are in your face and proud of it and have no sense of decency and care nothing about concealing their beliefs. So putting up a monument showing the movement of respective Union and Confederate units at Cassville, Georgia, in 1964 to honor the centennial is not some secret handshake, nod-wink-nudge-nudge. No, when segregationists acted, they did so openly: Let's change the flag!

I recommend that you familiarize yourself with microaggressions (it's not a great term from a naming standpoint, but the actions and their consequences are very real) and what messages they send. The muted messages are kind of the whole point. To deny that dog whistles aren't a thing is mind-boggling. They're a thing. Yes, there are your loud and proud folks. Those aren't the folks the dog whistles are intended for, and to pretend otherwise is being deliberately obtuse. Dog whistle terms are intended for closet bigots or even people who don't think of themselves as being racist or sexist or classist or whatever-ist (how many times have you heard anyone say "I'm not racist, but..."?). There are lots of latent -ists out there. We're all shaped by the social norms we grew up with and are all something-ist to some degree for anything you can think of; what matters is whether we're each aware of it. That's why there's no such thing as achieving full cultural competence.

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Post #: 4115

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 4:24:32 PM

Lokasenna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The graphic proves the point that the actual monuments were overwhelmingly erected during the era when the aging veterans were dying. That was done in tribute rather than as some kind of political statement.

It can still be both.

There was no need to make such a political statement in Georgia. There was only one party. It was monolithic and unthreatened.

Even granting your assertion as I don't have the time to look up any details: yes, and? Political statements aren't all for or against one party. In fact, most of them have nothing to do with any given party.

(in reply to Canoerebel)

Post #: 4116

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 4:34:20 PM

Canoerebel

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My point is that there was no need to make such statements in Georgia in 1910. There was no perceived threat to the status quo. The people were unified and, as part of that unification, chose to honor the veterans. They did so in many ways, and the veterans at the same time were doing things marking their aging years and looming mortality. There was no sneaky, underlying motive. The '50s were different.

I've lived here all my life. My parents and grandparents and great-grandparents are the people we're talking about. I know their weaknesses and their strengths. I've criticized the former, earning my fair share of critics among my own neighbors. But I've devoted my history career to seeking and writing truthfully. I have a reverence for history truly told. And I lament the virulent, mistaken views that are shaping our culture today, on both sides.

(in reply to Lokasenna)

Post #: 4117

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 5:22:21 PM

Canoerebel

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The problem with the information/sources cited by well-meaning Forumites like JohnD and Lokasenna is that they are so full of disinformation and faulty innuendo.

When they refer to "Confederate Monuments," many people reading imagine the statues to Confederate soldiers. They post graphics that show the proliferation of monuments in southern states and picture some rabid secessionists acting "in your face." And nothing could be further from the truth. But nobody stops to look at the underlying information. And when they do, all the people posting falsehoods or distortions ignore it because it doesn't fit their narrative and worldview.

So I looked at that time graphic that showed the proliferation of monuments in North Georgia in the 1960s. What I found was essentially zero monuments to Confederate soldiers. Instead, it was almost entirely a program by the state of Georgia to place markers where events of historical significance took place. These markers clearly aren't polictial or idealogues. They were simply emplaced during the centennial to mark noteworthy events and troops movements, North and South.

Here are the two closest to my house - one is a mile north, the other 1.5 miles south. See anything nefarious there? No? Me neither. Yet they (and hundreds of other dots on maps) are misperceived as nefarious and ugly glorification of the Confederacy.

So a friendly forumite from someplace like Glasgow reads the words you post and the graphics presented and picture in their heads a South in which thousands of Confederate monuments somehow erected to glorify slavery or white supremacy dot the landscape....when that's absolutely, 100% factually untrue. But nobody retracts their misstatements or acknowledges the distortions of the truth.

That drives me crazy.

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Post #: 4118

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 5:32:04 PM

Canoerebel

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P.S. The two markers above detail Union troops movements with only fleeting reference to any Southern units.

The Georgia Historical Marker program placed thousands of markers just like these. Exactly 0% are political. Yet they are included in a graphic meant to suggested, and apparently interpreted as such by a gullible public, as dog-whistling segregationist mementos.

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Post #: 4119

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 5:40:51 PM

Canoerebel

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That website promised "chilling incscriptions" on the monuments, if I bothered to read them.

So I did. I looked up monument after monument in Northwest Georgia, all erected in the 1960s to commemorate the centennial of the Atlanta Campaign. I read dozens, like this one to the Trimble House, about 15 miles east of my own house. I didn't find anything chilling there. I didn't find anything except well-done, respectful, appropriate history in every one of the score I read. And over a lifetime of stopping to read these in my travels across Northwest Georgia, I've read not one that was chilling or inappropriate.

But thanks to the whackos who generate this stuff and misrepresent our history, it sounds like the South is full of awful memorials to slavery.

I'd love to see some retractions...but I won't hold my breath.

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< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/13/2019 5:42:08 PM >

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Post #: 4120

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 5:46:54 PM

BBfanboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

P.S. The two markers above detail Union troops movements with only fleeting reference to any Southern units.

The Georgia Historical Marker program placed thousands of markers just like these. Exactly 0% are political. Yet they are included in a graphic meant to suggested, and apparently interpreted as such by a gullible public, as dog-whistling segregationist mementos.

Touch� Dan, clearing some tentative and erroneous impressions I had in my ignorance of the details of the issue. I salute you for your firm hold on the truth!

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 4/13/2019 5:47:13 PM >

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Post #: 4121

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 5:47:30 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

The people were unified

Were they? All the people? The blacks, the ex-slaves, the targets of Jim Crow, the families of the lynched, the share croppers, the economically destitute? We're they really all united and joined hands with thier former oppressors to raise monuments? They didn't desent because it may have put them at the end of a rope. When you speak of "all the people" are you really speaking for "all the people"? The people in power did what they did because nobody could stop them but let's not pretend they represented anyone but themsleves

_____________________________

Today I come bearing an olive branch in one hand, and the freedom fighter's gun in the other. Do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. I repeat, do not let the olive branch fall from my hand. - Yasser Arafat Speech to UN General Assembly

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Post #: 4122

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 5:49:04 PM

Canoerebel

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Chilling? Really?

Go ahead. Read the scores and hundreds of Georgia Historic Markers. Let me know when you find something "chilling." And you probably will, eventually. And it'll be one out of 1,500 or something.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 4123

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 5:50:30 PM

Canoerebel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

The people were unified
Were they? All the people? The blacks, the ex-slaves, the targets of Jim Crow, the families of the lynched, the share croppers, the economically destitute? We're they really all united and joined hands with thier former oppressors to raise monuments? They didn't desent because it may have put them at the end of a rope. When you speak of "all the people" are you really speaking for "all the people"? The people in power did what they did because nobody could stop them but let's not pretend they represented anyone but themsleves

I covered this yesterday, John, fully and appropriately. I noted that only whites counted in Georgia in 1910 (oh, how regrettable that was). The blacks didn't matter (unfortunately). This was a white controlled and dominated jurisdiction. There was no threat to that in 1910.

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Post #: 4124

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 6:00:20 PM

Canoerebel

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More "chilling" history (I'll stop with this example). Did the person who created this graphic have the slightest clue what he was doing? Did he have an agenda? Think about all the people that have read this stuff and thought there was merit to it (as exemplified by a respected Forumite posting it here).

What I find chilling is that people are distorting and misrepresenting our history and the public, whose views have been shaped to accept it, readily do.

P.S. This graphic is small, but this "chilling" monument pays homage to a Union general who died of disease. Think about that. This was offered as evidence (just one part, but a part) of ugly southern behavior. This monument.

P.P.S. Note in the small print that one of the groups who paid to have this marker erected was the "8th Regiment Band." That's a group of re-enactors in my town of Rome, Georgia, who play Civil War music on Civil War-era instruments. They do so in uniform (usually Confederate, but not always). They are some of the terrible, awful southerners doing evil things to harm our country and its people, I guess.

I'm done with this. Can you tell?

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< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/13/2019 6:24:31 PM >

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Post #: 4125

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 6:02:51 PM

BBfanboy

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The picture did not embed - just a little box with an X in it. If it won't upload, can you post a link?

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 4126

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 7:14:11 PM

Canoerebel

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In closing out this topic, I want to thank you guys for the fiery, fascinating exchange of ideas. I disagree vehemently with some of you, but that doesn't change my level of respect for outstanding folks like JohnD and Lokasenna.

These discussions make me think, bring history alive, help me search for information, examine my viewpoints, and increase my knowledge. Quite often, these exchanges help me form thoughts or passages or topics for articles. So I was actually working today while I was on the Forum.

I love working with history.

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Post #: 4127

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 7:22:42 PM

aleajactaest10044

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A note from the gallery...

Long term reader of your AAR's, who tends to provide only rare comments here on the forum. While I have the utmost respect for everyone's views, I come here to read about an AAR involving a game called WitP AE. I think this discussion has really derailed what most of us would like to read about. I will say thank you for sharing the informative article about Maj. Wirz. Having said more than enough, I will unsubscribe from following this AAR, and end my comments here.

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Post #: 4128

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 7:30:35 PM

Anachro

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Interesting this is the first time you've seen a thread derailed in a CR AAR. I remember many, many posts on hiking, trees, etc.

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Post #: 4129

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 8:03:32 PM

HansBolter

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Discussions of hiking and trees likely didn't bring the same level of discomfort the current discussion seems to have. Personally, reading it all left me feeling a bit discomfited as well.

I think I understand and appreciate Dan's pain. At least, I think I do. Vilification is never an easy mantle to bear.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 4/13/2019 8:06:19 PM >

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Hans

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Post #: 4130

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 10:23:12 PM

mind_messing

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quote:

So a friendly forumite from someplace like Glasgow reads the words you post and the graphics presented and picture in their heads a South in which thousands of Confederate monuments somehow erected to glorify slavery or white supremacy dot the landscape....when that's absolutely, 100% factually untrue. But nobody retracts their misstatements or acknowledges the distortions of the truth.

I enjoy this topic as a nice textbook case of how people can twist the data. Let's look at the most recent and comprehensive study:

https://www.splcenter.org/20190201/whose-heritage-public-symbols-confederacy

The article discussed the political context, so it's well worth examining the actual data-set.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17ps4aqRyaIfpu7KdGsy2HRZaaQiXUfLrpUbaR9yS51E/edit

NB: this excluded battlefield and historical markers that Canoe is discussing.

It's simply not commemeration of historical events. It is physical perpetuation of the pro-white and pro-slavery ideology of the Confederacy.

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Post #: 4131

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 10:50:20 PM

Bearcat2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

So a friendly forumite from someplace like Glasgow reads the words you post and the graphics presented and picture in their heads a South in which thousands of Confederate monuments somehow erected to glorify slavery or white supremacy dot the landscape....when that's absolutely, 100% factually untrue. But nobody retracts their misstatements or acknowledges the distortions of the truth.

I enjoy this topic as a nice textbook case of how people can twist the data. Let's look at the most recent and comprehensive study:

https://www.splcenter.org/20190201/whose-heritage-public-symbols-confederacy

The article discussed the political context, so it's well worth examining the actual data-set.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17ps4aqRyaIfpu7KdGsy2HRZaaQiXUfLrpUbaR9yS51E/edit

NB: this excluded battlefield and historical markers that Canoe is discussing.

It's simply not commemeration of historical events. It is physical perpetuation of the pro-white and pro-slavery ideology of the Confederacy.

Using SPLC as a source crosses the line into the political sphere.

_____________________________

"After eight years as President I have only two regrets: that I have not shot Henry Clay or hanged John C. Calhoun."--1837

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Post #: 4132

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 11:01:12 PM

mind_messing

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Joined: 10/28/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearcat2

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

So a friendly forumite from someplace like Glasgow reads the words you post and the graphics presented and picture in their heads a South in which thousands of Confederate monuments somehow erected to glorify slavery or white supremacy dot the landscape....when that's absolutely, 100% factually untrue. But nobody retracts their misstatements or acknowledges the distortions of the truth.

I enjoy this topic as a nice textbook case of how people can twist the data. Let's look at the most recent and comprehensive study:

https://www.splcenter.org/20190201/whose-heritage-public-symbols-confederacy

The article discussed the political context, so it's well worth examining the actual data-set.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/17ps4aqRyaIfpu7KdGsy2HRZaaQiXUfLrpUbaR9yS51E/edit

NB: this excluded battlefield and historical markers that Canoe is discussing.

It's simply not commemeration of historical events. It is physical perpetuation of the pro-white and pro-slavery ideology of the Confederacy.

Using SPLC as a source crosses the line into the political sphere.

Hence why the raw, non-politicized data is attached.

(in reply to Bearcat2)

Post #: 4133

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 11:03:42 PM

BBfanboy

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OK, everyone - Dan said the discussion is closed and as AAR owner he has the right to expect we will follow suit. Kudos to all for putting forward views without real acrimony developing. I learned a lot and I hope others did too.

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Post #: 4134

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/13/2019 11:10:52 PM

Bearcat2

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**********************************************************************************************************

< Message edited by Bearcat2 -- 4/13/2019 11:13:27 PM >

_____________________________

"After eight years as President I have only two regrets: that I have not shot Henry Clay or hanged John C. Calhoun."--1837

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Post #: 4135

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/19/2019 6:11:21 PM

Canoerebel

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6/9/45 to 6/22/45

The complexity of Allied operations is beyond comprehension right now. Handling Death Star and the air force in NoPac kept me tediously, fully, onerously busy for the past year. Now, added to that, is the handling of massive fleet operations in the Bay of Bengal, the movement of great armies in Indochina and Malaya, and a second huge air force, this one now dividing between Malaya and China. It's gotten so complex that sometime I don't even look forward to an incoming turn (that's a state of affairs I've never experienced!). But all these complexities are coming together in such a way that finally the Allies can bring total war to Japan. That sounds fun, but the complicating factor is that Japan remains very strong and is handled by a crafty player just waiting to jump all over a mistake or opening, should I allow such.

SEAC: Here's the situation centered on Singapore.

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Post #: 4136

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/19/2019 6:15:38 PM

Canoerebel

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6/9/45 to 6/22/45

Indochina and China: A massive, well-supplied army is on the China border and moving forward. Two things were essential to getting ops underway - a secure supply line with lots of supply, and the moving of several dozen AA units from Burma/Malaya to this point. The timing here was critical - I'll need the AA and I'll need RN Death Star in order to work efficiently in China. With those now available, or soon to be, the time is ripe.

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Post #: 4137

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/19/2019 6:30:11 PM

Canoerebel

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6/9/45 to 6/22/45

China and Japan: Tough fighting here but the Allied end-of-game plan is coming together as I had envisioned. Tough fighting ahead for many months to come but the Allies have put forces and supplies where they need to be with very little interference from Erik. The only fly in the ointment is the air war, where it's a real slog.

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Post #: 4138

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/28/2019 9:33:50 PM

Canoerebel

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Placeholder for update later (maybe). :)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 4/28/2019 9:40:18 PM >

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Post #: 4139

RE: Notes from a Small Island - 4/28/2019 11:32:58 PM

BillBrown

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Just a quick note. I do not know what types of ships you are using for bombardments, but I have found that CAs and CLs tend to have better results. I think it is because they have more ammo to shoot.

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Post #: 4140