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Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/20/2019 6:31:45 AM

surfcandy

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline

Ok I am willing to bend but Matrix just pissed me off moderately. I researched that removing credit card info from my account was in the works (from a 2012 post) no problem maybe I missed something. Then I went to check out and specifically made sure I clicked "not to store my credit card info". I returned to purchase something else and my credit card info was stored.

Now in this day and age this should not occur.It pissed me off and I deleted my $95. order and bought a board game instead.

< Message edited by surfcandy -- 4/20/2019 6:32:43 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/20/2019 7:02:27 AM

zakblood

Posts: 22687
Joined: 10/4/2012
Status: offline

did you log out?

clear cache and cookies and re login before you bought or tried a second time?

tbh that part of the transaction is secure, so no different than anywhere else as far as i know, but could be wrong so don't my word for it, ask in support and not in open chat i'd advice

< Message edited by zakblood -- 4/20/2019 7:04:03 AM >

(in reply to surfcandy)

Post #: 2

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/20/2019 7:52:59 AM

surfcandy

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline

Yes I logged in always before purchases and made sure everything was perfect before clicking away.What they said was not what happened when my card was saved when I specifically requested for it not to be saved in the system.I am very careful checking out because I know it's pretty much permanent.

(in reply to zakblood)

Post #: 3

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/20/2019 9:27:29 AM

VPaulus

Posts: 3630
Joined: 6/23/2011
From: Portugal
Status: offline

We at Slitherine/Matrix do not keep any card details at all, as this is all saved on Bluesnap's system, so unfortunately you'll need to contact them to request this.

(in reply to surfcandy)

Post #: 4

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/20/2019 11:53:06 AM

altipueri

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline

Well I was accidentally too generous to Matrix today because I bought yet another game I probably won't play and the great credit card data retention seemed to process my payment before I could go back and enter the HAPPYEASTER discount code. Grrr.

(in reply to VPaulus)

Post #: 5

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/20/2019 3:36:05 PM

surfcandy

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

We at Slitherine/Matrix do not keep any card details at all, as this is all saved on Bluesnap's system, so unfortunately you'll need to contact them to request this.

Alright could you please give me a link to their email or tel# so I could contact them concerning Matrix/Slitherine games account specific.

(in reply to VPaulus)

Post #: 6

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/20/2019 3:51:45 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: surfcandy

quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

We at Slitherine/Matrix do not keep any card details at all, as this is all saved on Bluesnap's system, so unfortunately you'll need to contact them to request this.

Alright could you please give me a link to their email or tel# so I could contact them concerning Matrix/Slitherine games account specific.

I did a search for Bluesnap. Went to the BBB where they have an A+ rating. From what I saw there they are fairly good about customer service when it is within their realm.

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(in reply to surfcandy)

Post #: 7

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/20/2019 5:38:13 PM

VPaulus

Posts: 3630
Joined: 6/23/2011
From: Portugal
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quote:

ORIGINAL: surfcandy
Alright could you please give me a link to their email or tel# so I could contact them concerning Matrix/Slitherine games account specific.

https://home.bluesnap.com/contact-us/

You can submit a ticket.

(in reply to surfcandy)

Post #: 8

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/21/2019 9:51:24 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: surfcandy
OI researched that removing credit card info from my account was in the works (from a 2012 post) no problem maybe I missed something. Then I went to check out and specifically made sure I clicked "not to store my credit card info". I returned to purchase something else and my credit card info was stored.

This has been going on for years. I have raised it multiple times with both BlueSnap and Matrix. Neither seem to have the slightest concern about the security of customer credit card data.

quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus
We at Slitherine/Matrix do not keep any card details at all, as this is all saved on Bluesnap's system, so unfortunately you'll need to contact them to request this.

I've contacted them 5-6 times over the years, but the problem obviously continues. I've also raised this several times with Matrix--who could easily choose one of the million other credit card service providers--with zero results. Absolutely shameful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
I did a search for Bluesnap. Went to the BBB where they have an A+ rating. From what I saw there they are fairly good about customer service when it is within their realm.

Gotta call bullshit on this one--what's gonna happen when a hacker steals my credit card data from their server? Are they going to step up then? I bloody well doubt it. What is especially shameful is that their site has a checkmark as if it will not save your CC data (just like a real credit card processor!), and yet they save it anyway. And it's been going on for years. And I personally have notified them of this, and complained about it, several times over the last several years.

I really don't get why Bluesnap doesn't seem to care at all, or why Matrix would put up with this abysmal level of service?

< Message edited by 76mm -- 4/21/2019 9:52:22 PM >

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 9

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/21/2019 9:54:03 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus
You can submit a ticket.

Sure, you can submit a ticket, just don't expect them to change anything. So they will remove his credit card data this time, only to save it again next time he makes an order. And so on, and so on...

(in reply to VPaulus)

Post #: 10

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/21/2019 11:24:26 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: surfcandy
OI researched that removing credit card info from my account was in the works (from a 2012 post) no problem maybe I missed something. Then I went to check out and specifically made sure I clicked "not to store my credit card info". I returned to purchase something else and my credit card info was stored.

This has been going on for years. I have raised it multiple times with both BlueSnap and Matrix. Neither seem to have the slightest concern about the security of customer credit card data.

quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus
We at Slitherine/Matrix do not keep any card details at all, as this is all saved on Bluesnap's system, so unfortunately you'll need to contact them to request this.

I've contacted them 5-6 times over the years, but the problem obviously continues. I've also raised this several times with Matrix--who could easily choose one of the million other credit card service providers--with zero results. Absolutely shameful.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
I did a search for Bluesnap. Went to the BBB where they have an A+ rating. From what I saw there they are fairly good about customer service when it is within their realm.

Gotta call bullshit on this one--what's gonna happen when a hacker steals my credit card data from their server? Are they going to step up then? I bloody well doubt it. What is especially shameful is that their site has a checkmark as if it will not save your CC data (just like a real credit card processor!), and yet they save it anyway. And it's been going on for years. And I personally have notified them of this, and complained about it, several times over the last several years.

I really don't get why Bluesnap doesn't seem to care at all, or why Matrix would put up with this abysmal level of service?

Bluesnap has no control over what a merchandiser does. Like I said, all they can control is what is within their realm of control. If a merchandiser keeps a CC number is not something they can control.

BTW, if you have ever bought anything on line you can bet your bottom dollar that every CC number you ever used is out there somewhere. Count on it. But since my CC companies will not charge me for stolen CC numbers I don't worry about it. Now, if you are stupid enough to use your bank debit card...

I guess you can go live in a cave.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 4/21/2019 11:30:58 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/21/2019 11:55:43 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

Forgot to mention. There is one thing I strongly object to. The keep credit card info is checked be default. That needs to be changed.

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Post #: 12

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/21/2019 11:58:13 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Bluesnap has no control over what a merchandiser does. Like I said, all they can control is what is within their realm of control. If a merchandiser keeps a CC number is not something they can control.

Huh? Matrix is the merchandiser, and they claim that they don't keep or even have the number, that BlueSnap does that. So how does Bluesnap have no control over that? Accepting credit card payments is exactly what they do, it is their business.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
BTW, if you have ever bought anything on line you can bet your bottom dollar that every CC number you ever used is out there somewhere. Count on it. But since my CC companies will not charge me for stolen CC numbers I don't worry about it.

Sounds like you've surrendered on digital security--I have not. Sure, if someone looks hard enough they could probably find my credit card number, but I see no reason to make it easier for them by leaving my credit card info on file with every online retailer. Sure I use credit cards but it would be a major hassle if I have to change my credit card number. In any event, I don't want vendors and payment processors blithely accepting more risk for me without my consent, as Matrix and Bluesnap are doing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
I guess you can go live in a cave.

Please--I've done virtually all of my banking online for the last 25 years, and most of my shopping online for the last 15 years, living for most of that period in Russia, which is hardly a low-risk environment. But I've never had a bad charge--surely in part due to luck, but also because I am very careful about how go about online banking and shopping.

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 13

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/21/2019 11:59:16 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
There is one thing I strongly object to. The keep credit card info is checked be default. That needs to be changed.

Why does it need to be changed? It doesn't matter if it is checked or not, because they save it in either case. That is exactly what people are complaining about!

< Message edited by 76mm -- 4/22/2019 12:12:06 AM >

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 14

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/23/2019 4:22:43 PM

surfcandy

Posts: 127
Joined: 8/21/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus
You can submit a ticket.

Sure, you can submit a ticket, just don't expect them to change anything. So they will remove his credit card data this time, only to save it again next time he makes an order. And so on, and so on...

Absolutely 100% correct.Sad but true.It's like they are one step back in time.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 15

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/23/2019 4:40:50 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
There is one thing I strongly object to. The keep credit card info is checked be default. That needs to be changed.

Why does it need to be changed? It doesn't matter if it is checked or not, because they save it in either case. That is exactly what people are complaining about!

Then don't shop there and tell 'They' why. Works for me. To blame it on the CC clearing house and do nothing is like kicking the dead dog over to the next guys yard isn't it?

< Message edited by Lobster -- 4/23/2019 4:44:44 PM >

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Post #: 16

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/24/2019 3:42:44 PM

IainMcNeil

Posts: 2804
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline

Hi guys,

we're looking in to this again and will see if there is something we need to change.

Thanks for your patience!

Iain

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Matrix Games

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 17

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/24/2019 4:14:29 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Then don't shop there and tell 'They' why. Works for me. To blame it on the CC clearing house and do nothing is like kicking the dead dog over to the next guys yard isn't it?

I'm not sure what else you would expect me to do?

Don't shop where? Bluesnap? They are not a vendor. Matrix? Usually I would have stopped using an online vendor that does this long ago, but I don't really much have a choice if I want wargames, do I?

I've raised it several times with Bluesnap. I've raised it several times with Matrix, including with Matrix tech support and *top management*. One of the responses from Matrix said something to the effect of "yeah, we checked with BlueSnap, they don't think it is very important, so they'll get it when they get to it." Given that it has already been going on for several years, I figured they'd never get to it. That's when I contacted Matrix management, who said they'd "look into it". That was several months ago, during which time I haven't bought any games, so wasn't sure if it had been fixed or not. I guess not...

Frankly I don't understand why your position on this issue...

< Message edited by 76mm -- 4/24/2019 4:18:56 PM >

(in reply to Lobster)

Post #: 18

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/24/2019 4:16:36 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IainMcNeil
Thanks for your patience!

This has been going on for several years already...actually I'm long out of patience but given the relative lack of alternatives for quality wargames I have refrained from withdrawing my custom, as I would normally have done long ago.

(in reply to IainMcNeil)

Post #: 19

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/24/2019 7:06:58 PM

Blond_Knight

Posts: 1031
Joined: 5/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

We at Slitherine/Matrix do not keep any card details at all, as this is all saved on Bluesnap's system, so unfortunately you'll need to contact them to request this.

Im sorry but that's bullshit. Our relationship is with you, not bluesnap. I understand that theyre just your payment vendor and Im not super sensitive to this because I always use my credit card but
as you can clearly see other people take it much more seriously and honestly so should you.
None of us are here to beat up Matrix/Slitherine, we want you to be successful. What if there was a data breach at bluesnap, it could ruin you.

< Message edited by Blond_Knight -- 4/24/2019 7:07:39 PM >

(in reply to VPaulus)

Post #: 20

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/24/2019 8:10:25 PM

Rebel Yell

Posts: 470
Joined: 6/21/2003
From: The Woodlands, TX USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blond_Knight

Our relationship is with you, not bluesnap.

This is it in a nutshell. When you tell the customer it's their problem because you're not Bluesnap, that's not only bad business, but fraudulent.

A purchase made from your company makes you completely liable, no matter what indemnification your third party business partner may provide you behind the scenes.

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RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/25/2019 12:26:38 AM

76mm

Posts: 4688
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From: Washington, DC
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I always pay with a credit card but still don't want fraudulent charges... First, why should I be OK with my credit card company picking up the tab for BlueSnap's/Matrix's shoddy credit card security practices? Second, I have zero interest in spending a couple of hours on the phone with my credit card company sorting out false charges...

I also don't understand why Matrix would continue to use a service provide like this... They are saving credit card numbers even when customers check a box saying that they should not. Most credit card payment processors figured out how to do this circa 1999--and yet BlueSnap still hasn't figured it out twenty years later? That's scary--this is not rocket surgery--if they can't figure out how to stop saving credit cards when they say they won't, how can you trust them to do anything right, including securing their own site? I sure wouldn't want the future of my company depending on whether BlueSnap could secure itself from hackers...

Then there is the question of GDPR, Europe's relatively new consumer data privacy law. I'm not an expert on the topic, but I would certainly think that BlueSnap, and perhaps Matrix, could be liable to customers for false statements about which consumer data is saved by the company. Again, I'm no expert, but as far as I know violations of GDPR can lead to huge fines, not to mention the ensuing poor publicity.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 4/25/2019 12:28:08 AM >

(in reply to Rebel Yell)

Post #: 22

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 4/29/2019 12:09:04 PM

IainMcNeil

Posts: 2804
Joined: 10/26/2004
From: London
Status: offline

We're going to make sure this cant happen with our new website design we'll be rolling out soon, but we are going to try and find a way to prevent Bluesnap storing them on the current site as we'll do it in a different way. This is not so easy as there is no setting to toggle off to prevent them doing it so we're checking whats possible. All I can say is it is not us storing it and we don't want the info stored.

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Matrix Games

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 23

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 5/2/2019 7:30:31 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IainMcNeil
All I can say is it is not us storing it and we don't want the info stored.

But it is being stored, by a vendor selected and retained by you. I don't care that you are not storing it, or that you don't want it stored--I want my info to NOT BE STORED by the vendor that you have selected.

It really doesn't trouble you that Bluesnap cannot figure out how, or does not care, to not store sensitive credit card information that that they are telling YOUR customers that they are not storing? Honestly I find that astounding.

(in reply to IainMcNeil)

Post #: 24

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 5/2/2019 7:56:40 PM

vonRocko

Posts: 1447
Joined: 11/4/2008
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I agree 76mm. Despite unchecking the save card button on a recent purchase, they saved it anyhow, against my wish. It's possibly criminal on bluesnaps' end.

(in reply to 76mm)

Post #: 25

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 5/2/2019 8:53:23 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

76mm and vonRocko-I agree with your perspective. If you're not getting satisfaction from the vendor or Matrix, have you considered going to your card issuer? Visa, MasterCard or AMEX may have a different viewpoint about this. After all, such flagrant security invites CC abuse / hacking and besmirches their good name when it occurs. On a related note, what do you think would happen to an online vendor's sales if they got cut off at the knees by the card company themselves?

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Post #: 26

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 5/2/2019 9:47:07 PM

76mm

Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
Visa, MasterCard or AMEX may have a different viewpoint about this. After all, such flagrant security invites CC abuse / hacking and besmirches their good name when it occurs.

I would guess that this type of behavior violates any agreements that would exist between BlueSnap and the credit card companies, but dunno. And the credit card companies would be less worried about their good name being besmirched than the fact that at least for US customers, they themselves would be liable for any false charges arising from BlueSnap's pathetic, 1990s-era security lapses. Given BlueSnap's and Matrix's apparent indifference to this issue (this has been going on for YEARS!), however, it might be time to raise it with Visa.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
On a related note, what do you think would happen to an online vendor's sales if they got cut off at the knees by the card company themselves?

Well, frankly I don't have too much interest in shutting down my main source of computer wargames, although I think it more likely that Matrix would be harmed when/if BlueSnap implodes after a hacking attack. Like I've said before, if BlueSnap can't figure out how to not save credit card info, would you really trust them to secure their own site? I certainly would not.

It's not like there aren't literally thousands of other credit card payment processors, so I'm mystified why Matrix would stick with these clowns. The only reason I can think of is that customer security is not very important to them. Sad...

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 27

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 5/2/2019 10:02:45 PM

Yogi the Great

Posts: 1948
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

Disclaimer: No I don't know why my credit card has been hacked multiple times

I have one credit card that has now been hacked three times (each time I have to get new cards with a new number)

Coincidently each time it was hacked, shortly before I had made a purchase from Matrix/BlueSnap for a game.

No, I can't say that they were the hack/leak of my card information but it does make you worry about how the hackers got the number. Gas pump skimmer? Waitress at a restaurant? A different vendor? In the last case I asked for my information to be deleted and after going through the routine was advised that Bluesnap deleted it. Within 2 days the card was apparently hacked and charges made on it not by me.

Have to admit that while I do plan to buy again, (yes I'm addicted) I have already passed on the purchase of two games from Matrix out of concern that my data may not be safe.

< Message edited by Yogi the Great -- 5/2/2019 10:03:20 PM >

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Post #: 28

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 5/2/2019 11:34:56 PM

MadmanRick

Posts: 579
Joined: 4/9/2004
From: New York City, U.S.A.
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quote:

Coincidently each time it was hacked, shortly before I had made a purchase from Matrix/BlueSnap for a game.

And this means exactly nothing. I have been a Matrix customer for over 15 years and I have purchased close to 50 games from their stores, not ONCE have my card details been hacked from Matrix or their processor, that I can pinpoint. I have had my details stolen from a USPS pos reader and many other places, but not once from here. I get it you don't want your details stored, that's your right even if I think it's being a bit over-the-top.

But, if that's the case why haven't you looked into other ways to buy the games you want. You could use Steam? Maybe they don't store your details? You could get a Visa gift card and use it only for this purchase, viola, let them store away and good luck if the details are compromised. You could use Paypal, I have never had a bad transaction through them and I buy stuff ALL the time through eBay (over 5000 transactions). The point is that until they make a secure payment method that is truly unhackable and unable to be compromised, this is a sad fact of life. The other point as I mentioned I have had my cards (yes, plural) hacked many times, I have never suffered a loss in terms of actual $$$. The USPS pos hack I mentioned above, the scum got me for $3700 through my debit card. USAA not only replaced the loss of all $$$, they also overnighted me a card (for free) as I was on business in Washington D.C. at the time. So anyway, just my .02 cents worth.

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Post #: 29

RE: Upset with Matrix Credit Card Policy - 5/2/2019 11:39:13 PM

Yogi the Great

Posts: 1948
Joined: 4/10/2007
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline

Well MadmanRick I guess we are pretty close in our support of Matrix.

I have purchased 46 games from them so far. Thou protest too much.

(in reply to MadmanRick)

Post #: 30

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