Tamas
Posts: 985
Joined: 1/7/2001
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Hi Everyone,
We thought some of you might enjoy helping the team, and the community in general, researching equipment and OoB information for the various armies the game has not yet covered. Our hope is that this will help both the development team, as well as modders to add new content more quickly, as finding information in sufficient details is usually the biggest challenge for this period, especially since the best sources are always in the native language of the armed force in question.
To state the obvious: we have opened this subforum for publicly available information only. Make sure you do not post any classified information. If you post any equipment data or information, we would appreciate if you included the source, but ultimately it is your responsibility to not share anything you are not supposed to.
First of all an important disclaimer: a country/region receiving a sub-forum here does not guarantee that it will be included in a future expansion for the game. Quite simply, we have not planned long enough to know when -if at all- a given country would see official treatment. On the other hand, if anybody wants to create a mod using information/opinion contributed here on the forum, they are of course free to do so.
Now for some details on how we envision this forum working.
For each country/region subforum we will link a Google Sheet with two tabs: the Faction Sheet and the Ammunition Sheet. There is also an Armour Penetration Calculator that you should use if you want to get the in-game parameters for given gun/ammo attributes. If you think an equipment/ammo type is missing, or has wrong suggestions, either comment in its own separate thread, or open a new one if none exists. After an initial testing period of the concept, we would be happy to find a forum member for each of the subforums to be given access to update numbers, once he judges the arguments sufficient for them. The development team can update/overrule these of course.
The 3 sheets are as follows:
Faction sheet
This is where vast majority of work is done. It is substantially a unit list of a given faction. In the Armored Brigade official database we don’t use prototypes, trial vehicles or systems or those which saw service in extremely limited numbers (less than 10, for example, unless justified by importance or proven potential availability in wartime). Preferred sources are archival material, books that are based on such data, like trials, after-action reports, statistics, and technical manuals. Latter are preferred. Sometimes such material is not available, so it is necessary to analyse declassified intelligence reports, open-source data, photographs, as to rely on anecdotal evidence etc. In such cases discussion is encouraged as is conservative approach to assumptions that needs to be labeled as such.
Unit name, year of introduction and withdraw from service is quite self explanatory. Names can be localized, but a certain consistency patterns with names used in same and other factions in game should be maintained, as well familiarity of users with such names (e.g. M18 AT Destroyer is better than Yugoslav local designation SO-76 etc.).
Transfer into reserve units and similar variations that may alter availability should be noted in “Formation and other service usage notes” as well other short notes and comments that might be useful or interesting to the database creator (e.g. minor modifications or modernizations, limited numbers issued, intended role or particular units using them exclusively). Major modernizations should be listed as separate units (e.g. T-62 model 1975 etc.). In case of infantry this tab is used to note what weapon system is used by, for example, HMG or Mortar team (e.g. M2 Light Mortar). For aircraft this is where the most common combat loadout is noted, or the intended role.
Ammo notes regard particular ammo load, or round introduced, for example new AP or HEAT shell being distributed in a particular year. In case of aircraft it is usually a note on a new bomb or missile being introduced, or number of hardpoints. You will note that in case of infantry this field is used to designate how many men are in the squad (question of practicity).
Particular equipment notes (including for sprites) regard information that can be used both by the database creator (e.g. no IR lights, stabilization) as by the sprite maker, such is added or removed machine guns, stowage, LRFs, smoke grenade launchers, camouflage etc.
In case of infantry this field is used to sign how many men are used to move the weapon (in order to reduce workload, static sprites are used instead of animations when possible, so no need to make 2-men moving a gun sprite if minimum needed is 3-men).
Miscellaneous notes and commentary regards any useful information that doesn’t fit previous fields (e.g. should a given unit have a gunner, or a turret, or if given unit is based on unit already in game but listed under a different name etc.).
Public discussion on forum is also highly encouraged (actually necessary) particularly so if data presented doesn’t fit the above sheet (for example, presentation of infantry company organizations, specific AFVs development history and etc.).
Ammunition sheet
This is a list of ammunition rounds and missiles used by units of a specific faction. Listed are calibre (should be ordered according to this and category, like shells and missiles), round historical designation, historically accurate gun name that use it, shell type, year of introduction, minimal range (for example most ATGM missiles have a “dead-zone”) , maximum range (maximum range at which shell is effective when visually aimed, in case of direct fire rounds), accuracyBase (accuracy at muzzle, usually 90% but can be lower on some specific weapons), accuracyRange (point where accuracy reaches half of original value, used to adjust accuracy over different distances), softDamageRange (usually 0, but some rounds like cannister lose lethality over range), AP_Damage (penetration at muzzle, and by norm a comment should be left on quoted penetration from a trusted source), AP_DamageRange (refer to Armour Penetration Calculator section), muzzle velocity of the shell or missile speed, and notes (usually vehicle using it, but also anything else of interest).
Armour Penetration Calculator
As the name already implies, this sheet is our algorithm used to calculate armor penetration over range. Only fields to be touched are B1 and D1 (Penetration and Penetration Range respectively). Penetration value is initial penetration at muzzle, at 0°, and playing out with range values with give you various penetration values over different distances. Those ranges are to be compared with historical penetration data (usually given at 500m, 1000m, 2500m etc.) until you get as realistic values as possible. APFSDS tend to keep penetration over range, while older shell types as APC or APDS tend to lose it more. HEAT and HEP ammo maintain penetration over range so PenRange is 0m.
N.B. keep in mind that archival data often give penetration at 30° or 60°. Penetration values and estimates sometimes cannot be directly compared if they don't include some other data as target obliquity or type, penetration criteria, and can be significantly altered even by "minor" parameters as propellant temperature, target hardness, etc.
Also, different criteria for armor perforation are used by different nations. For example, Soviet criteria for calculating the penetration limit of projectiles is V80, meaning that the expected consistency of achieving full armor perforation must be 80%. This means, that at least 80% of all projectiles of a certain type must achieve that standard in order to have a certified penetration. A hit is declared as full penetration only when 80% of the shell mass has passed through the armor (notice the word mass, it means that the penetration is achieved even if the shell splinters to pieces within the armor). Overall, Soviet standards were not only stricter, but the steel they used for targets was sometimes of a greater hardness than NATO targets, hence the given penetration data of Soviet rounds may be an under-representation of the actual achievable penetration of these shells using a different criteria.
In comparison, complete penetration according to the American methodology is acquired, whenever a shell punctures the armor enough for light to shine through, once the shell is removed. In other words, it’s enough for the shell to have just a tip inside the armor and you have achieved a complete penetrating hit. On top of that, only 50% of the projectiles are required to penetrate. Hence, it is clear that values are not directly comparable, and strict care needs to be taken to have consistent and comparable values across all units and factions in the database. Comparative field trials of different rounds are always a welcome addition because they are excellent for side-to-side performance comparison of different rounds.
Therefore, it is recommended to use the calculator and put the accuracyRange and AP_Damage values in Ammunition sheet if possibly you have a certain scientific knowledge on penetration vs. armor dynamics. Public discussion is always welcome and encouraged.
You can download a copy of the Calculator from THIS LINK
To see all of this in practice, have a look at the YUGOSLAVIA SHEET
< Message edited by Tamas -- 6/7/2019 8:47:24 AM >
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