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Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/16/2019 5:20:22 PM   
crazydave1066


Posts: 34
Joined: 8/7/2017
From: Charlotte, NC
Status: offline 		Hello all! I am planning on starting a full campaign game as the Japanese in the near future, but the production system, while appealing to me, seems insanely complex. Does anyone have any tips on the production system? Specifically how to efficiently keep your factories supplied with resources and oil to keep the war machine going. It seems difficult to remember how and where you need to send these resources. Thanks in advance!
Post #: 1
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/16/2019 5:37:12 PM   
Nowi Ribak

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 10/30/2011
From: Austria, Europe
Status: offline 		I think I saw a guide here in the forum, although I did not save it as I prefer the Allied side.

Try using Google for search within the Matrixforum, much better results ;-)

(in reply to crazydave1066)
Post #: 2
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/16/2019 5:37:56 PM   
Korvar


Posts: 813
Joined: 9/3/2014
Status: offline 		It seems like the Japanese production system will be a topic of ongoing discussion in BillBrown's new AAR vs. AllenK. You could join us there. I linked a 'forum squeeze' document in that thread which should help you get started. Reading Mike Solli's posts might also be a good idea - just look at his signature .

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RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/16/2019 6:27:12 PM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		See this http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605

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Post #: 4
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/16/2019 6:32:15 PM   
Korvar


Posts: 813
Joined: 9/3/2014
Status: offline 		I didn't know there was an updated version of the production primer. Thanks, GetAssista.

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RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/16/2019 6:59:49 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

See this http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605


He had a boner from not understanding the concept of "repair" which applies to factories and refineries and oilfields. "Repair" is what is used to build things from scratch, as well as repair actual damage. "Damage" also means potential size limit of a refinery or factory. He said he'd done research and couldn't find evidence for all the damaged factories in Japan, so he advised going into the editor and repairing all of them. I think we straightened him out on that. Don't do anything like that in the editor unless you're creating a mod. It's called "cheating". Otherwise his guide is quite helpful to the beginner and those with moderate experience as well.

If you do well and capture most of the refineries out there intact or nearly so, you will have more refinery capacity than you'll have oil to refine. The refinery capacities shown in the DEI, though, do not strictly represent actual refineries. In much of the DEI oil fields the oil coming out of the ground was what is called "light sweet crude". This grade of oil could be put directly into ship's tanks and used as fuel, so in a way it didn't really require refining. In reality, however, you wouldn't do that unless you had to because that grade of fuel would in fact cause extra wear on your engines. That goes for ships as well as factories. It's a game representation that's certainly not uncalled for. Anyways, do not repair any refineries that you capture with damage. Do repair any "damage" to oil fields. In the case of Miri I believe that oil field was considered not fully developed so in the game it has considerable "damage" that can be repaired. You'll have to ship a lot of supplies there to repair it, but it's worth it.

It's important to maximize all the ports from which oil or fuel can be shipped. Especially Palembang which has so much to be shipped and such a crappy port to ship from. You can maximize the port at Oosthaven which is connected to Palembang by rail and ship from there too.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 6/16/2019 7:01:19 PM >

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Post #: 6
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/16/2019 7:16:59 PM   
AllenK


Posts: 7259
Joined: 2/17/2014
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

It seems like the Japanese production system will be a topic of ongoing discussion in BillBrown's new AAR vs. AllenK. You could join us there. I linked a 'forum squeeze' document in that thread which should help you get started. Reading Mike Solli's posts might also be a good idea - just look at his signature .


That's just what I need, Japanese production honed to perfection .

(in reply to Korvar)
Post #: 7
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/16/2019 9:08:36 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazydave1066

Hello all! I am planning on starting a full campaign game as the Japanese in the near future, but the production system, while appealing to me, seems insanely complex. Does anyone have any tips on the production system? Specifically how to efficiently keep your factories supplied with resources and oil to keep the war machine going. It seems difficult to remember how and where you need to send these resources. Thanks in advance!


Resources and Oil are the least of your concerns re: production as Japan. "Get 'em all to the home islands" will ensure that you won't run out of them in your production centers. Most novice Japanese players' mistakes involve expanding factories too far too fast. Resources and Oil (actually "fuel" is needed for HI production, not oil) are automatically processed at LI, HI and oil to fuel at refinery centers. Get them there and they'll do the rest.

To summarize: Airframe, engine, shipbuilding, factory expansion and so forth use HI (Heavy Industry) points. HI is produced at HI centers. Fuel is required at HI centers to produce Heavy Industry points (and also some supply). Oil is required at refineries to produce Fuel (and also some supply in stock scenarios). Get these ingredients there and they'll produce what they're supposed to.

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RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/16/2019 9:40:39 PM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

It seems like the Japanese production system will be a topic of ongoing discussion in BillBrown's new AAR vs. AllenK. You could join us there. I linked a 'forum squeeze' document in that thread which should help you get started. Reading Mike Solli's posts might also be a good idea - just look at his signature .


That's just what I need, Japanese production honed to perfection .


Don’t worry Allen, he won’t ace all those IJ industry setup mouse clicks in his first game as Japan.
It would take a good few games to “master” it, and those who play as Japan are always just one incorrect mouse click away from wasting 30k+ supply points!


_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

(in reply to AllenK)
Post #: 9
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/16/2019 10:05:28 PM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		Different scenarios have different details of oil, resources etc but the following should hold true.
Send as much oil as possible to Japan.
Send any fuel your fleet doesn’t need to Japan.
Many things in Japan need supply points so be careful how much supply you export.
You may not need to collect all resources. Remember it costs fuel to move it home and fuel has other priorities than bringing back excess resources that may never be processed into supply.

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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Post #: 10
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/16/2019 10:32:24 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		It's almost impossible to not have enough resources. Move all you can as fast as you can from Hokkaido and Sakhalin to Honshu. Same for Formosa to Kyushu. Take some more but go easy from Asia (Rashin, Fusan, Port Arthur and HK). There's HI in China and Manchukuo so don't go overboard. You can add some from the Philippines but don't go farther than that.

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Post #: 11
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/17/2019 1:32:39 AM   
WingCmdr

 

Posts: 150
Joined: 7/25/2017
From: BS, MT
Status: offline 		Has Anybody read this, or is this not useful?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2959613

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Post #: 12
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/17/2019 1:49:13 AM   
Korvar


Posts: 813
Joined: 9/3/2014
Status: offline 		I'm no expert on Japanese production, but that looks to be a thorough index from an authoritative source. Nice find, WingCmdr!

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Post #: 13
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/17/2019 2:38:09 AM   
WingCmdr

 

Posts: 150
Joined: 7/25/2017
From: BS, MT
Status: offline
Now you suck up to me? I am an authoritative source.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

I'm no expert on Japanese production, but that looks to be a thorough index from an authoritative source. Nice find, WingCmdr!



< Message edited by WingCmdr -- 6/17/2019 2:43:15 AM >

(in reply to Korvar)
Post #: 14
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/17/2019 3:10:27 AM   
Korvar


Posts: 813
Joined: 9/3/2014
Status: offline 		Mike Solli is an authoritative source on industry in this game. You found a good post which organizes a lot of Mike's posts. I was simply acknowledging your find, which isn't always easy to do considering a lot of the best content gets buried in the bowels of the forums. I'm not blowing smoke your way - the post you linked appears to be packed with lots of useful information. Thank you for making the post.

Also, I am trying to encourage you to make more posts like that. If you focus on learning the game and helping others where possible, you can have an enjoyable time on the forums and make the experience better for others as well. Constantly attacking others won't get you anywhere here.

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Post #: 15
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/17/2019 6:04:10 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		I just bumped Damien’s Japanese Econ 101 primer to the top of the War Room.
I also read Mike Solli’s AAR. Mike recently started a new game so he can put some lessons learnt into play.
The above two references got me to the point of understanding enough that I could practice and learn a bit more through “on the job” training against the AI.
I’m almost ready for a PBEM, I just need to book in a few weeks of leave to be able to get through the first few turns!

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

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Post #: 16
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/17/2019 11:14:23 AM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
The primer that helped me the most to get started as Japan was one that Damian wrote:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2933397

I recommend you use Tracker. Very useful. It can graph global industry.
The overlay helped me to see the slopes.

(in reply to crazydave1066)
Post #: 17
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/17/2019 1:22:59 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae


quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

It seems like the Japanese production system will be a topic of ongoing discussion in BillBrown's new AAR vs. AllenK. You could join us there. I linked a 'forum squeeze' document in that thread which should help you get started. Reading Mike Solli's posts might also be a good idea - just look at his signature .


That's just what I need, Japanese production honed to perfection .


Don’t worry Allen, he won’t ace all those IJ industry setup mouse clicks in his first game as Japan.
It would take a good few games to “master” it, and those who play as Japan are always just one incorrect mouse click away from wasting 30k+ supply points!



Ain't that the truth!

_____________________________


Created by the amazing Dixie

(in reply to jdsrae)
Post #: 18
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/17/2019 10:28:28 PM   
Falken


Posts: 242
Joined: 8/8/2007
From: ON, Canada
Status: offline 		And another thing, and i've written this in one of my AARs before. Go through any posts by NY59Giants in those AARs, and DO EXACTLY WHAT he says. Don't think about, don't debate it, don't say "nnaaahhh".. .just do it. trust me...

I'm doing that in my new game with Wineguy, and my game is whole lot better than it was before. Keys ones are how to use APDs, what planes to build (there is a thread for that), and especially, where, and how, to use HQs.....

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 19
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/18/2019 1:03:26 AM   
JoV

 

Posts: 99
Joined: 2/27/2016
Status: offline 		As an aside, was there ever any consensus on what to do with the fuel that stockpiles in Manchuria? Since the heavy industry there needs a steady supply of it, I've always been reluctant to ship it out to the Home Islands.

Is it safe to skim some/any of the top? I assume taking Siam et al helps keep this region self-sufficient.

A bit like the opposite of Hokkaido, where you need to make sure you keep topping it up to ensure the industry doesn't run dry....

< Message edited by JoV -- 6/18/2019 1:17:21 AM >

(in reply to crazydave1066)
Post #: 20
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/18/2019 1:17:34 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I don't think the refinery at Port Arthur ever produces a significant surplus of fuel, especially if you capture some HI factories in China, which you better do.

Edit: In my experience, even if you capture all the oil fields in China, that oil is really sluggish making it's way to PA. You likely will be (on occasion) shipping a little oil from the DEI to PA to keep that refinery busy, and all the fuel it produces will go into HI in China and Manchukuo.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 6/18/2019 1:21:47 AM >

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Post #: 21
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/18/2019 8:54:25 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae


quote:

ORIGINAL: AllenK


quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

It seems like the Japanese production system will be a topic of ongoing discussion in BillBrown's new AAR vs. AllenK. You could join us there. I linked a 'forum squeeze' document in that thread which should help you get started. Reading Mike Solli's posts might also be a good idea - just look at his signature .


That's just what I need, Japanese production honed to perfection .


Don’t worry Allen, he won’t ace all those IJ industry setup mouse clicks in his first game as Japan.
It would take a good few games to “master” it, and those who play as Japan are always just one incorrect mouse click away from wasting 30k+ supply points!



Ain't that the truth!


+1



_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

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Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 22
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/18/2019 9:11:07 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Does anyone have any tips on the production system?


Yeah, don't do it.

But if you insist...

You have to read a lot of what others have posted and then make your own decisions. What's said above is all good, but in the end you will have to use your own ideas. As I've always said '100 gamers, 100 ways to play'. There's a tremendous amount to learn and most things are interrelated. You will make many mistakes at first so be ready to start a game, go for a while, and then restart. I did several times in the beginning. Then at some point your mistakes will be tolerable and you can just play through them correcting things on the next go-round.

I find it helps if you take notes about the decisions you make. Then before you restart read them and decide if they still apply or if you'd like to change something. Don't forget this is your game and you should develop your own style of play. I for don't usually 'go with the flow'. That doesn't mean I don't make 'sound choices', it just means I'm different. Believe me I do things that would cause most here to cringe.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 23
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/18/2019 9:44:08 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JoV

As an aside, was there ever any consensus on what to do with the fuel that stockpiles in Manchuria? Since the heavy industry there needs a steady supply of it, I've always been reluctant to ship it out to the Home Islands.

Is it safe to skim some/any of the top? I assume taking Siam et al helps keep this region self-sufficient.

A bit like the opposite of Hokkaido, where you need to make sure you keep topping it up to ensure the industry doesn't run dry....


Very rarely, I ship a bit of oil out of C/M/K (China/Manchuria/Korea). I do ship fuel into C/M/K regularly, usually from the SRA to Hong Kong.

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Created by the amazing Dixie

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Post #: 24
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/18/2019 10:20:14 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

I do ship fuel into C/M/K regularly, usually from the SRA to Hong Kong.


End of May '43 and I've yet to ship fuel into C/M/K, but the stock at PA is getting low so...

quote:

I ship a bit of oil out of C/M/K (China/Manchuria/Korea).


Have done a bit, but that's gonna change with PA running dry on oil. I find I can get some of the northern China oil out through Hankow. Its been going to Nagasaki, but its beginning to look like I'll need it at PA.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 25
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/18/2019 10:55:48 PM   
WingCmdr

 

Posts: 150
Joined: 7/25/2017
From: BS, MT
Status: offline 		Here's a note I Pm'ed to one of our Russian friends:

I just want to help you out a little. Forgive me if you know this.

Everything starts in Shang, Fusan.
Use the radio knob to adjust the supply level at a couple of key cities.
The system does the rest, on main roads, slower elsewhere.

Pull the demand (like a rope) to get resources/oil from HK to Shang, PA, Fusan.

I thinks its that simple?

Cheers


It's kind of an old subject:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2597400


< Message edited by WingCmdr -- 6/18/2019 10:56:35 PM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/18/2019 11:05:50 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Pull the demand (like a rope) to get resources/oil from HK to Shang, PA, Fusan.


OK, but the difficulty I have is getting things to move to Fusan. The game will usually move things to the largest port, and for me that's PA right now. Don't have enough engineers at Fusan to build the port up enough.

Then again as I've said before I don't use the 'magic'highway' (if that's what we're talking about here) as I prefer not to. That's not to say I wouldn't try when my fleet is on the oceans' bottom. But that's just me and others may play how they feel fit.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to WingCmdr)
Post #: 27
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/18/2019 11:27:39 PM   
WingCmdr

 

Posts: 150
Joined: 7/25/2017
From: BS, MT
Status: offline 		That's how you can tell the good from the average.

I build 100 LI in Fusan and Shanghai, a little in PA and Keijo.

The hard decisions are how much Arm and Veh to produce and do you expand in Korea?

Scen 78 had three armored divisions, no way you can predict the usage in the first year, but somewhere there are '43 targets
for these and HI. That's why I don't need Tracker. As long as you know the daily change and the direction of the trend you can feel comfortable in your economic decisions.

< Message edited by WingCmdr -- 6/18/2019 11:28:18 PM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 28
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/19/2019 1:11:54 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

OK, but the difficulty I have is getting things to move to Fusan. The game will usually move things to the largest port, and for me that's PA right now. Don't have enough engineers at Fusan to build the port up enough.



In my current game I moved every engineer unit in Manchukuo to Fusan from day 1.
They had Fusan port maxed at size 8 before the end of Dec 41, but PA is size 9 so will always be the bigger port and therefore magnet for oil/resources.

The size 8 Fusan port supports 2 x big Lima convoys to haul resources Fusan—>Shimonoseki and they draw enough resources to fill them, but if I lost my marbles and stopped those convoys for any reason everything would stockpile back at PA.

Coincidentally, the total haulage capacity of the Lima class is close to the daily resource excess produced in CMK. It’s like the devs planned it or something!
The trick is to avoid any of the Lima that start with troops on them getting sunk in the first few weeks

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 29
RE: Any tips on Japanese Production system? - 6/19/2019 1:30:12 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jdsrae
Coincidentally, the total haulage capacity of the Lima class is close to the daily resource excess produced in CMK. It’s like the devs planned it or something!
The trick is to avoid any of the Lima that start with troops on them getting sunk in the first few weeks

There are so many better uses for your Limas though than shuttling 2 hexes - AKEs, AKVs, sturdy troop transports. Shuttling the short route can be done by anything, fuel expenditure is minimal and hence fuel efficiency does not matter much

(in reply to jdsrae)
Post #: 30
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