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Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/26/2019 10:16:56 PM   
xhoel


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Panzerwaffe report

The following is a report on the state of the German Panzerwaffe, including TOEs of the field Panzer and Motorized divisions, Morale and Experience of said divisions AFV production, AFV inventory and number of AFVs in the pool. This report only refers to German forces, armored and motorized formations of our Axis Allies are NOT included.

At the start of summer 1942 Germany fields 21 Panzer Divisions and 1 independent Panzer Regiment. The Panzer Divisions have 2 TOEs, the more standard 42a Panzer TOE (used by 15 divisions) and the 42c Panzer TOE (used by 6 divisions). Both TOEs have the same number of elements and almost identical number of AFVs, the difference between them is in the tanks used.
The 42a Panzer TOE has in its core medium tanks, 117 of them and is augmented by 21 light tanks while the 42c Panzer TOE has in its core 86 light tanks, is augmented by 42 medium tanks and is on paper less formidable than its sister TOE.

Both TOE have a reinforced SP Flak component (34 SP Flak) as well as the same number of support AFVs (16 CS tanks , 6 Tank Destroyers, 18 AC and 14 Half Tracks). Both TOEs will receive an update at the start of September. The full breakdown of TOEs at full strength is shown below:

Panzer TOEs:





The quality of the Panzerwaffe:

At the start of the summer campaign, 14 of the Panzer Divisions have a morale of 86 or more, making them perfect for pincer operations and converting enemy territory as they only pay 2 MPs to enter an enemy hex as opposed to 3 for Divisions <86.
The experience of these divisions is high, as many of them have been refitted and underwent training during the past months. All of these formations are under the command of highly experienced and skilled commanders and have very high CV.

Morale and Exp of said formations:



Selected units have a morale <86

The Motorized Divisions are supporting the Panzer Divisions in all their operations and are a vital component of the Panzerwaffe. At the start of the summer of 1942 Germany fields 13 Motorized Divisions (12 once the L.A.H SS Mot. Division withdraws), 1 Elite Motorized Regiment (which will update to division soon) and 2 Motorized Brigades. The standard motorized divisions of the Heer (10 standard motorized divisions) have 3 TOEs (de facto 2). The 42 Motorized Division TOE and the 42a Motorized Division TOEs are the same, the only difference being that the units that are using the 42a TOE (2 divisions, the 36th and 14th Motorized Divisions) will lose their motorized status at the start of June 1943 and will revert to normal infantry divisions.

The rest of the 8 remaining Motorized divisions have an even split, 4 of them utilize the 42 Mot. TOE and 4 of them utilize the tank heavy 42b Mot. TOE. The TOEs are identical save for 1 small detail: the 42b TOE utilizes 55 tanks as an organic part of the division, meaning that it has twice the AFVs that its sister TOE has. Comparison side by side:

42a Motorized Division TOE:



42 and 42b Motorized Division TOEs:




The Morale and Experience of the Motorized units is also quite high: only 2 Motorized Brigades and 2 Motorized Infantry Divisions have a morale <86 as shown below:



Max TOEs:

The Max TOEs of all Panzer divisions that have a morale >85 have been set to 100%. They are to be kept at full strength for as long as possible so that they retain their full combat strength. The Max TOE of Panzer Divisions <86 Morale has been capped at smaller values (85-95%). The independent Panzer Regiment has been capped at 50%. This is a choice that the Germans are forced to do because of the scarcity of tanks that the German industry produces.

Motorized formations have been set to 100% Max TOE.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by xhoel -- 6/26/2019 10:24:20 PM >


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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/26/2019 10:53:13 PM   
xhoel


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German AFV industry:

The tanks that Germany has on the field are a mixture of different models. The most used ones per category are the Pz IIIJ with the short 50 mm gun (Medium Tank), the light Pz38(t)E (light tank), the PzIVF (CS Tank) and the StuGIII F (assault gun).

No light tanks are currently in production and the Germans are using the better armored version of the Pz38(t), the Pz 38(t)E from the stocks (currently at 253). Inventory of light tanks currently in use as well as the inventory of the pools:

Pz38(t) compared to the better armored Pz38(t)E:



The red writing on the gun is not easy to decipher so I have just used arrows to show where it can be read easily.

Light tanks deployed in the field:



Notice the use of captured T-26.

German pools of Light tanks:



German AFV industry has become more streamlined and produces 2 main medium tanks:

The most produced one is the Pz IIIm which is the better armored version of the Pz IIIL featuring the long 50mm KwK39 L/60 gun which is able to penetrate the frontal armor of the T-34 at ranges under 500 meters. Equipped with an APCR shell, it is able to penetrate the heavy armored KV-1 tank. 31 Panzer IIIm are produced and delievered to the East a week.

The other tank is the Panzer IVG, using the high velocity 75mm KwK40 L/43 gun which is able to penetrate the T-34 at ranges from 1.000 to 1.600 meters and can also penetrate the KV-1 tank. 16 Panzer IVGs are produced and delivered to the East a week.

Both tanks are formidable, have good armour and with a reliability of 25 not so prone to constant breakdowns.
Since the pools for medium tanks are very low we are only showing the inventory for said tank category:

Comparison between the Panzer IIIM and the Panzer IVG:



Inventory of Medium tanks in the field:



Other AFVs

The Panzer IIIn (the last of the Panzer III line) equipped with the short barreled 75 mm KwK L/24 gun, suitable to destroy fortifications and to provide support to the infantry and panzergrenadiers is also in production. At maximum capacity, 8 of these tanks are produced a week but currently only 4 are produced and delivered as the production is in its initial phase.

The main CS tanks of the Wehrmacht:



The German indsutry also produces 2 types of Light Tank Destroyers:

The first one is the Marder II (Sd. Kfz. 131), build on the Panzer IIF chassis, using the powerful 75mm Pak40 gun.

The second one is the Panzerjager 38, build on the Panzer 38(t) chassis, using captured Soviet 76mm guns which have been rechambered to fire the more powerful German Pak40 cartridge.

Both of these light tank destroyers suffer from poor protection (open top and rear) as well as very thin armor. They do however posses excellent firepower and should be employed in a tank hunting capacity.

The 2 Light Tank Destroyers being compared:



For reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_II
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marder_III
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62_cm_Pak_36(r)

The StuG IIIF/8, the upgunned and better armored version of the StuG IIIF has just entered production. The Assault Gun sports the powerful lengthened 75mm KwK40 L/48 gun, which is effective in engaging all Soviet AVFs and makes this version of the StuG III more of a tank destroyer than an assault gun.

StuG IIIF vs StuG IIIF/8:



Inventory and pools for CS tanks, Light Tank Destroyers and Assault Guns:




NOTE: All of these screenshots were taken at the end of turn 55 therefore there is a high number of damaged AFVs and the ready TOEs are lower than at the start of the week.



Attachment (1)

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/27/2019 8:49:16 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Both tanks are formidable, have good armour and with a reliability of 25 not so prone to constant breakdowns.

Worth reminding all that reliability in WitE is actually a measure of "unreliability" - the higher the numbers the less reliable they are

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/27/2019 10:21:34 AM   
Bear1888

 

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PZKW IV was such a well-balanced design. A tank, designed in the late 30s and still absolutely deadly in 1945 in the "Ausführung" J.

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/27/2019 10:24:38 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bear1888
PZKW IV was such a well-balanced design. A tank, designed in the late 30s and still absolutely deadly in 1945 in the "Ausführung" J.

It was still deadly in 1967!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbgW9C9G0H4

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/27/2019 10:30:24 AM   
Bear1888

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bear1888
PZKW IV was such a well-balanced design. A tank, designed in the late 30s and still absolutely deadly in 1945 in the "Ausführung" J.

It was still deadly in 1967!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbgW9C9G0H4



Ah thanks. In 1967, they faced Israeli super Sherman tanks. Just like their ancestors fought it out in 1943-1945 over 20 years ago.

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/27/2019 11:07:22 AM   
xhoel


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For reference in regards to reliability: The T-34 1941 (main Soviet medium tank at the start of the summer 1942) has a reliability of 20 while the Panther D has a reliability of 40. So at 25 I am quite pleased with the reliability of the AFV.

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/27/2019 12:24:16 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bear1888

PZKW IV was such a well-balanced design. A tank, designed in the late 30s and still absolutely deadly in 1945 in the "Ausführung" J.


Indeed. It was a deadly weapon and exactly what the Germans needed in the East.

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/27/2019 7:28:33 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


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quote:

The Max TOE of Panzer Divisions <86 Morale has been capped at smaller values (85-95%).

I think that is a questionable decision. Essentially, it keeps manpower/artillery out of high morale armoured divisions and sends it to low morale infantry. It is better to use refit to channel AFVs IMO.

I think you have pretty much broken the back of the Soviets, their army seems very weak.



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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 2:59:46 AM   
56ajax


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

For reference in regards to reliability: The T-34 1941 (main Soviet medium tank at the start of the summer 1942) has a reliability of 20 while the Panther D has a reliability of 40. So at 25 I am quite pleased with the reliability of the AFV.

Over time the reliability (and quality) of the T34 deteriorated alarmingly. This was due to the need for industry to relocate and increase production. Not sure if the game handles this.

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 8:30:58 AM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 56ajax
This was due to the need for industry to relocate and increase production.


Not only that - Soviet Production engineers over time deliberately reduced the tolerances of the manufactured parts. Once they had worked out that Soviet tanks only lasted months, and hours on average on the battelefield they decided there was no point in high quality engineering to make them last longer. From a strict war optimisation view they were quite right to do this and explains why the Soviet Union was able to outproduce tanks. This was not always appreciated by the tankies though! This is in contrast to German design led engineering which always wanted the best.

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 11:36:33 AM   
xhoel


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@EvK: The manpower/artillery would just sit in the pool really. Everything has been capped to optimize the Army but I understand what you mean. I don't want the panzer divisions to have shortages of men and arty so I will see if there are better ways to go about than to just cap the TOE.

I'm not convinced that I have broken their back yet. Bitburger still hasn't committed his mobile reserve and he is holding a portion of his guard units back. I don't want to repeat the mistakes the Germans did and underestimate my opponent!

@56ajax and Tele: Funny that you are mentioning that. The T-34 M1942 that starts production in July 1942 has a better reliability (15) than the M1941 version (20).

< Message edited by xhoel -- 6/28/2019 12:24:33 PM >


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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 12:50:17 PM   
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Never underestimate the soviets. I play against my respected opponent frogmarc. We are in January 43 now. After taking Moscow, Leningrad and inflicting 7.3 millions casualties to the red army, I thought :"that's it. now i just need to dig behind the Don river, drink beer and eat schnitzel and play the game out until he gives up."

We are far from that. With a relatively small Red Army of 6.2 mio. men, he started a Blizzard offensive and is actually driving me back hex for hex.

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 1:40:16 PM   
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@Bear1888 - that is interesting. I would be curious to see his OOB. Maybe a small Red Army with high ratio of high quality units is not much less potent than a much bigger one that has it's quality diluted in a second rate units.

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 2:16:31 PM   
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I will post something after the next turn.

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 2:41:16 PM   
xhoel


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Indeed. I believe that its not the numbers that determine if the Soviets are successful. A small army of high quality and that is organized properly can get the job done better than a huge army with rag tag formations. I'd also like to see the OOB :)

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 3:49:38 PM   
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maybe a smaller Soviet army is more exposed to counter-attacks in the summer though?

And of course it forces the Soviet player to rely more on finesse.

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 3:56:09 PM   
Telemecus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar

maybe a smaller Soviet army is more exposed to counter-attacks in the summer though?

And of course it forces the Soviet player to rely more on finesse.


The Crackaces analysis was that 6.1 million was just the threshold to start tipping the balance. Above that and the Soviet side can think advance - or at least take the blows in summer, below that and they will have problems.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 6/28/2019 3:57:28 PM >

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 4:04:23 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: joelmar

maybe a smaller Soviet army is more exposed to counter-attacks in the summer though?

And of course it forces the Soviet player to rely more on finesse.


The Crackaces analysis was that 6.1 million was just the threshold to start tipping the balance. Above that and the Soviet side can think advance - or at least take the blows in summer, below that and they will have problems.


6.1 might seem odd ... so why not 6.0 or 6.2M? .. I have made this analyses in multiple AAR's but in short .. the typical number of hexes the Soviets have to cover * 5K to 7K minimum for a ready unit * 3 to 4 deep in a great many places. It is very clear the 6.0M and under (see the 8MP AAR) is not enough and the Germans can find a spot to not only exploit but destroy the Soviet Union in 1942.

Attacking in the first winter is expensive that has been pointed out . but if your opponet is on the ropes from an OOB standpoint this might be the one condition that a directed blizzard offense toward hurting cav units might be worth the trucks and AFV's ...But if the Soviet's are over 6.1M it is one data input that tougher times are ahead .. 7M and the German is going to be on their heels ...

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 4:11:14 PM   
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@Telemecus: yes, that was part of the basis of my precedent comment.

I think the Soviet side always has an advantage in blizzard, even after the first winter. But blizzard operations are still limited, and really summer is when big things can happen in normal circumstances.

What I meant is more about the capacity of the Soviet army to hit hard on a limited scale even without high numbers. Which might still be enough to suprise and unbalance a highly successful Axis opponent.

@crackaces: yes, and it makes a lot of sense. Those are simple maths really. Of course, that number might also depend on the state of the Axis army. But it is understood that number is a rule of thumb

< Message edited by joelmar -- 6/28/2019 4:14:54 PM >


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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 6:24:29 PM   
Bear1888

 

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Sorry for hijacking the thread but you asked for the information. Here is the actual OOB in early 43 and the strongest soviet stack according to Intel:






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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 6:45:46 PM   
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Thanks, really interesting.

but I really meant the full OOB that could be extracted and sorted from the Commander Report exports, in order to see the quality ratio of his troops, that is of course not something that is available to you.

But from your map screenshot he seems to have quite a few powerful stacks.

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 6:53:42 PM   
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Actually Bear has a very interesting report. The Soviets have enough now to slow the Germans down. That is stack 4 deep and not leave huge holes to get munched .. the next milestone is 7M where the Soviets can pick a front and start pushing ..

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/28/2019 7:07:00 PM   
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Yes, of course, that is a calculation that has logic to it and makes sense in the context of usual Soviet use of mass as I already stated.

But my initial comment was more a questionning about whether a Soviet player that has been badly mauled and so with a relatively small army but with high quality units would be able to do as well as a Soviet player with a bigger OOB containing many units of lesser quality that are usually used as cannon fodder.

When on the attack in 1941 and 1942, the Axis player doesn't need to cover all his front multi hexes deep since the Soviet player will have to create deep fronts to stop him where he hits, in great part because his units are weak. So can a depleted Soviet player do the same and play a strategy more based on finess than mass if he concentrates on farming high quality units?

< Message edited by joelmar -- 6/28/2019 7:08:03 PM >


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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/29/2019 5:19:12 PM   
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@Crackaces: I think that is a good rule of thumb, but ofc there are many more variables that come into play when determining the shift of the initiative.

@joelmar: I don't see why the Soviets cannot hit hard on a certain sector and be successful. That does not mean that they will win the war. The advantage of numbers would give the Soviets the ability to hit in multiple parts of the front and tie up German reserves which would make break out operations impossible to achieve. That is why the OOB numbers serve as a good indicator of where the initiative is.

@Bear1888: That is very interesting, thanks for posting. The Soviets seem to have a lot of Rifle Corps concentrated there. How many Guard Tank Corps? A few other questions if you don't mind: I see you didn't get the split of Army Group South, did you not take the Caucasus in your game? I see you have your best commanders assigned to the Army Groups, is this yielding good results?

Cheers!

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/29/2019 10:19:58 PM   
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I am happy to answer the questions.

-The main attacks are carried by rifle corps. So far no tank corps participation. He lost only 2 tank corps during the summer along with 10 rifle corps.

-I went for Moscow and captured it. I tried a surprise attack on Rostov but was not able to capture the city. Now he has 3 divisions there with level 3 forts.

-The commanders did a good job with the Moscow offensive. And i guess they are not completely useless in the defense. The loss ratio in the last turn was 20k vs. 70k. I could need some more reserve activation with the high initiative rating of the Army/AG leaders.

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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/29/2019 11:05:44 PM   
xhoel


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-Seems like you did well during the summer. Do you have the losses screen?

-Congrats on taking Moscow. Too bad about Rostov and the surrounding area. It would have granted you the AGS split.

-Hmmm ok thanks for answering. I asked because as far as I know higher commands only affect CVs and everything else by very little. Check the reserve rules, you will learn fast how to optimize your unit positioning so that you get the max reserve activation.




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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/30/2019 6:57:30 PM   
Bear1888

 

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Sure things. Here is comes:


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RE: Panzerwaffe Report. - 6/30/2019 9:27:49 PM   
xhoel


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Seems like you are doing quite well for yourself! Thanks for the screenshots and for answering the questions. Good luck with the campaign :D

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T56 - 7/1/2019 11:12:11 AM   
xhoel


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T56, 9th of July-16th of July 1942
AGN


Army Group North continues the offensive towards the Volga. Very heavy fighting as the Soviets put up fierce resistance. However even multiple Soviet holds have been unable to stop the German advance. The 3rd Panzer Army has pushed hard and encircled 4 Soviet Rifle Divisions and 2 Rifle Brigades. Forward units are now 20 miles away from the Volga. The 3rd Panzer Army is in dire need for a rest and should be granted one next week.

AGN sector at the start of the week:



AGN sector after German moves:





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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4490035
AAR WITE: A Clash of Titans 41-45
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4488465
WitE 2 Tester and Test Coordinator

(in reply to xhoel)
Post #: 510
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