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New player strategy help - 7/5/2019 11:39:34 PM   
jagsdomain

 

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Ok new player here.
It seems like the US strategy is pritty much the way the war went.
Japan seems to have alot of other options?
Don't attack pearl and send everything to Philippines. Or send everything to India. Or try to invade Pearl early.
Am I over simplifying or am I missing something?
Post #: 1
RE: New player strategy help - 7/6/2019 12:13:04 AM   
Rusty1961

 

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1. Not sure anyone invades Pearl. No upside to it. You'll get kicked out and it will take most of your small amphibious forces that are well needed to secure the oil fields in Borneo and Sumatra.

2. Good luck invading India; Any decent allied player would punished you terribly for being off-balanced.

3. Attack Japan where he isn't. Run when he shows up with his fleet.

(in reply to jagsdomain)
Post #: 2
RE: New player strategy help - 7/6/2019 12:29:21 AM   
Canoerebel


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There are reasons to attack Pearl under limited, well-thought out circumstances.

Many excellent Japanese players invade India for well-defined reasons.

Japan opens with the initiative, a favorable balance of power, and more knowledge of capabilities, disposition and OOBs, so it does have a lot of options. The Allies do too, though in comparison they may seem more limited in the early war. By mid war that shifts and the Allies can do major fun things too.

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Post #: 3
RE: New player strategy help - 7/6/2019 1:04:45 AM   
jagsdomain

 

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Thanks!

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RE: New player strategy help - 7/6/2019 1:08:13 AM   
jagsdomain

 

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Thanks!
I know if RL Yamamoto had suggested taking India first. They could have had a lot of help form the anti-British forces. IJN did make an attack in Madagascar and sunk the Hermie's.
First I have to figure out how to make a move! lol

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RE: New player strategy help - 7/6/2019 1:24:05 AM   
Canoerebel


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Steep learning curve but awesomely fun and intuitive too. If you know WWII history the game is pretty easy to kick-start. But you'll still be learning 10 years from now (I am a decade in, anyway).

There is always the lure/temptation of doing unusual things for the novelty and thrill of it. Against an experienced opponent, they often turn into disasters. But that's part of the fun. If the game was linear and easy to master, we wouldn't be playing it in endless loops ten years after it was released.

If you're playing the AI, go do something fun. Invade India or Russia or the West Coast. You'll learn a lot, and you can then start over if things go sideways. :)

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 7/6/2019 2:23:05 AM >

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RE: New player strategy help - 7/6/2019 2:24:17 AM   
geofflambert


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I believe Yamato was in the attack the Soviets bunch. Still wouldn't have worked in the end.

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RE: New player strategy help - 7/6/2019 4:33:21 AM   
WingedIncubus


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As a newbie player, I would strongly recommend that you take it slow. The first six months of the war, the Allies are in defensive mode. That's not being pessimistic, but realistic. However, unless you throw your carriers in the jaws of the Japanese Kido Butai and lose them in December 1941 (and even then...), nothing you can do will make you lose the game outright as the Allies. So take this time to take a good stock of your situation, theater by theater separately, and take some long-term decisions. And of course, begin by cleaning the mess the Japs have left in Pearl Harbour.

That said, defensive does not necessarily means playing possum and laying passive. I do not subscribe to "Sir Robin" (refusing any fight, flee all opportunities and hide the all carriers in San Francisco) becauses a) it sucks, b) it surrenders complete control of the game to the Japanese player, without fear of any action to counter his plans; c) this is an operational simulation of a war between two great powers and their allies - No self-respecting commander, conscious of his career, would argue to Franklin D. Roosevelt to flee for the hills and wait two years leaving the Japanese in full operational control of the Pacific until the US have enough CVs to sink the KB; d) Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Congress, and the American public would never politically fathom such a plan.

Military operations are an ensemble of both big, overarching plans and small, local opportunities, driven by human beings. As a commander, your overall objective is to mininize your mistakes (because you will make mistakes. Bull Halsey, MacArthur, and Nimitz all made pretty serious mistakes!) while creating the right conditions to help the other poor, dumb bastard make mistakes or suboptimal decisions to exploit. Being on the defensive does not mean refusing to take risks if your objective is worthwhile. Even with mediocre assets, ways can be found to keep an opponent on its toes and throw small wrenches in his plans. You have six months on the defence, yes, but on the other side the Japanese player has also six months to reach all its objectives, so any small, local victory you may grab is time, resources, and peace of mind lost for your opponent.

I remember a PBEM game as a newb in which in mid-December 1941, reading my reports and SigInt information, I deducted my opponent was sending a troop landing task force somewhere (Kuching, IIRC) without sufficient surface fleet protection. Being so early in the game, I was sure that KB was somwehere in the North Pacific, back from Pearl Harbor. So I asked myself - what would Nimitz do, had he the information and intelligence I had? I decided to take a gamble: a quick sortie from Indonesia and Singapore with parts of my ABDA task forces and set a coordinated SC attack right where my reports said they were going to land.

My thinking process was that my opponent would not be expecting me to take such an aggressive action, and risk cruisers in the open South China Sea so quickly. Yet, I could also have been totally wrong - and my task forces might have been in deep trouble. But such is the chaos of war, and in the end I was right! To my opponent's shock, my fleet indeed caught him with its pants down - and with inadequate surface fleet cover. I did not seek battle with his cruisers or destroyers, though, but with its transports so it was worth some risk.

While I did suffer some damage in that fight I managed to damage or sink a few of his troop transports - one of them lost with all hands on deck including a complete, several-thousand IJA unit that was still to be landed. I remember reading the report! Might seem tiny in scope, but that I was an incredible victory for me - and threw a huge spanner into my opponent's planning because these troops, so early, were irreplacable. Yet, it was nail-biting stressful for me because if I was spotted, consequences could be dire... and yet, I cannot tell you how good you will feel when your first plans will succeed. And the more complictated they are, the more overwhelmingly awesome you will feel of planning such an operation against a human player and (not all the time, but sometimes) succeed!

So practice weighing the pros and cons of every opportunity you may seize. Any Japanese ship or transport lost is a ship or a transport less it may use in its later operations, but if it is too costly do not feel ashamed to wait and fight another day.

I would also strongly advise that you grab a big notebook - and that you take notes. LOTS of notes. Each day, each turn, make a diary of it: What has happened, what has changed? What decisions do you need to take? What are your schedules?

WITP:AE is a game that is heavily focused on operational and logistical planning, and if you are playing with 1-day turn you have a lot of time to plan and organize yourself. Remember, the strategy you decide determines your operational choices and, from these, logistical decisions.

- So, what is your long-term game plan? What are your battle lines in China, Burma, India, Australia, etc.
- WHERE THE F*** is KIDO BUTAI?
- What assets do you have? What assets will you acquire, and when? What is your timetable, and where will you assemble them?
- Which will be your future staging grounds for supplying Australia and India in raw materials and prepping your future operations? What is needed in terms of supply, material AND convoy shipping to keep it under supply as you upgrade them?
- Dependent of your decisions above, which bases are you willing to sacrifice to the Japs? Which bases are you ready to fight for? Which bases will you absolutely fight tooth and nail to defend?
- Where are you putting your carriers? Which bases will be your hiding base for your carrier operations in the South Pacific? Where will your carrier task forces train?
- Where will you send your submarines and, from there, which bases will serve as sub bases or place your submarine tenders into?
- Mines... what minelayers do you still have? Where would it be best to lay your mines?
- WHERE, AGAIN, IS KIDO BUTAI?
- Which bases produce raw materials and oil, and how many oilers and transport ships are needed to bring them to production for fuel and supply?
- What intelligence do you have? SigInt, sighting reports, etc. Keep in mind that visual sightings can be erroneous or exaggerated, so always take them with a grain of salt
- WHERE, YET AGAIN, IS KIDO BUTAI AND BABY KIDO BUTAI (Zuiho, Ryūjō, etc)?


< Message edited by WingedIncubus -- 7/6/2019 5:58:31 AM >

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 8
RE: New player strategy help - 7/6/2019 10:49:35 AM   
Chickenboy


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Wow! Nice post WingedIncubus. I agree with most everything you've said.

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Post #: 9
RE: New player strategy help - 7/6/2019 10:59:27 AM   
Yaab


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Kido Butai? That is the problem with the game. Even though the Allied player gets lots of SIGINT, it does not match the level of detail the Allied enjoyed in RL thanks to ULTRA. Heck, the Allied player does not even get Jap ship callsigns. The AI uses this a lot, with Jap carriers popping out of nowhere and sinking your ships at a whim.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 10
RE: New player strategy help - 7/7/2019 2:05:54 PM   
Leandros


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WingedIncubus, it is quite interesting what you write about sitting/not sitting on the fence after a Japanese attack because
that is exactly what the Rainbow 5 plan outlined should be done (sitting on the fence, that is), except for a couple of
symbolic diversionary carrier attack into the Japanese Pacific sphere.

Only in a short period before the war was it considered to use a southern route, via Torres Strait, to relieve the Philippines
and then only to Mindanao. This was also what Eisenhower recommended to Marshall as soon as he arrived in Washington in
December to take up his work in the War Plans Office.

That it developed differently was more or less because Pearl Harbor was such an insult to US pride. If the carriers had been
caught up with in PH, too, they might have been forced to act like Rainbow 5 pre-scribed, anyway. Mind you, War Plan
Orange was mainly a naval thing from its inception in 1906, the Army for the most part tailing along. Which is why Roosevelt's
and Marshall's repeated promises to MacArthur - that help was coming - could not be full-filled. The US Navy stalled it.

If PH had not been attacked at all, the Philippines could have been left even more isolated than it was, simply because its
relief wasn't an item in Rainbow 5 and the US hadn't been insulted the way they were. Even then, MacArthur, in the meantime,
had received the blessing of Washington to try to defend all of the Philippines if needed. This was based on the masses of
equipment and men sent to the Philippines after the inauguration of the fledgling Philippine Army into the US Army in July
1941, with MacArthur as its commander, and an expected (or hoped for) grace period till april '42.

Fred

< Message edited by Leandros -- 7/7/2019 2:32:28 PM >


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River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

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Post #: 11
RE: New player strategy help - 7/8/2019 9:07:12 AM   
Leandros


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WingedIncubus, apart from my posting above I find your analysis of tactics and strategies very useful - and intelligent....

Fred

_____________________________

River Wide, Ocean Deep - a book on Operation Sea Lion - www.fredleander.com
Saving MacArthur - a book series on how The Philippines were saved - in 1942! https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07D34QCWQ/?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&ref=series_rw_dp_labf

(in reply to Leandros)
Post #: 12
RE: New player strategy help - 7/8/2019 1:17:55 PM   
Gridley380


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WingedIncubus

- What assets do you have? What assets will you acquire, and when? What is your timetable, and where will you assemble them?
- Which will be your future staging grounds for supplying Australia and India in raw materials and prepping your future operations? What is needed in terms of supply, material AND convoy shipping to keep it under supply as you upgrade them?



Can't emphasize these points enough. In stock or stock-like scenarios the Allies don't have a shortage of supplies, or fuel, or of shipping... but somehow I (and I believe many other players) still manage to wind up with the fast carrier force or an advance submarine base drained dry of fuel. I even did it in my current game - I took Truk ahead of schedule, moved my submarine force there... and drained all the fuel I'd brought with my assault force. The nearest fuel reserve was at Pearl, and I hadn't cleared all the IJ airpower from the intervening islands, so I needed carrier escort to get my fuel TFs through. Bad planning on my part, and I study historical logistics for fun. :-}

(in reply to WingedIncubus)
Post #: 13
RE: New player strategy help - 7/8/2019 3:42:32 PM   
WingedIncubus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

quote:

ORIGINAL: WingedIncubus

- What assets do you have? What assets will you acquire, and when? What is your timetable, and where will you assemble them?
- Which will be your future staging grounds for supplying Australia and India in raw materials and prepping your future operations? What is needed in terms of supply, material AND convoy shipping to keep it under supply as you upgrade them?



Can't emphasize these points enough. In stock or stock-like scenarios the Allies don't have a shortage of supplies, or fuel, or of shipping... but somehow I (and I believe many other players) still manage to wind up with the fast carrier force or an advance submarine base drained dry of fuel. I even did it in my current game - I took Truk ahead of schedule, moved my submarine force there... and drained all the fuel I'd brought with my assault force. The nearest fuel reserve was at Pearl, and I hadn't cleared all the IJ airpower from the intervening islands, so I needed carrier escort to get my fuel TFs through. Bad planning on my part, and I study historical logistics for fun. :-}



Indeed! That is why planning your moves way in advance is so important :

- Despite what usually believed, Allied resources are finite. Yes, the US mainland is auto-sufficient in producing fuel and supply; yes, the US will produce a LOT of ships... eventually. But until then, your fuel and supply must reach your bases somehow and in sufficient amounts (even in Pearl Harbor!) which means allocating a lot of your supply ships (oilers, tankers, supply ships, merchant ships, etc.), and destroyers for ASW duty or convoy escorts. As for shipping tonnage, these are not only finite but at the start of the game, when you actually sit to set your convoy lines, you quickly discover your shipping numbers is not as plentiful as expected. And contrarily to Japan... you can only wait until more are delivered each month (hence, keeping note of these numbers on your timetable).

- While The US mainland is auto-sufficient... Australia, New Zealand, India, Ceylon, and Burma (EDIT and China, China, CHINA!) are not. Being closer to the front, good amounts of your fuel and supply will be delivered from there rather than the West Coast. So you must keep them supplied in raw materials, from bases that produce a net growth of these, and then get resulting fuel and war supply to your bases as well. Which means... more supply lines!

- Which brings me to the most finite resource of all : time and space. The vast geographical area you have to cover, and the resulting time it will take for your supply ships to reach your bases, mean lots of blindspots where they are vulnerable. You cannot be everywhere, every time, and a smart Japan player knows that. Japan has those nifty oxygen-enriched torpedoes that are awesome tonnage-killer. So, you have to think ahead how you will keep these lifelines protected... and destroyers on patrol duty just might not be enough. Remember what I said about Sir Robin and letting the Japanese player full control of the battlefield...?

- If you select a location as a forward base, you need to think about its future role and requirements first, the amount supply it will need to accomplish that role, and all its structural and defensive preparations. You cannot just dump-as-you-go, because your base will dry up very quickly. Plus, the base's port facilities must be able to handle the amount of supply being docked as well! The amount of bases in the Pacific with Port ratings high enough to deal with higher circulations of convoys and bigger Navy ships, even after upgrades, is not as high as one might think - and upgrading these sufficiently can take months, even with enough supplies! Truk is a very good objective because of this but, as you have painfully discovered, the surrounding area must be cleared of any Japanese interference or harassment for it before it becomes viable as a base. Same with Rabaul, btw.

- And, of course, I haven't touched defensive measures : Garrison, air squadrons, etc, which require supply as well.

< Message edited by WingedIncubus -- 7/8/2019 5:28:25 PM >

(in reply to Gridley380)
Post #: 14
RE: New player strategy help - 7/8/2019 4:46:35 PM   
HansBolter


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You forgot China in your list of non-auto-sufficient locales.

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Hans


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RE: New player strategy help - 7/8/2019 5:24:55 PM   
WingedIncubus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

You forgot China in your list of non-auto-sufficient locales.


Absolutely true! And all those Chinese divisions are really hungry for supply.



< Message edited by WingedIncubus -- 7/8/2019 5:25:16 PM >

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Post #: 16
RE: New player strategy help - 7/8/2019 9:48:20 PM   
rustysi


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quote:

I study historical logistics for fun.


Dude, you need to get a life.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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Post #: 17
RE: New player strategy help - 7/10/2019 1:16:05 PM   
Gridley380


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I study historical logistics for fun.


Dude, you need to get a life.


Playing WITP:AE doesn't count?

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Post #: 18
RE: New player strategy help - 7/10/2019 6:52:52 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I study historical logistics for fun.


Dude, you need to get a life.


Playing WITP:AE doesn't count?

Playing the game is an afterlife - it's endless ...

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Gridley380)
Post #: 19
RE: New player strategy help - 7/11/2019 10:30:16 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

I study historical logistics for fun.


Dude, you need to get a life.


Playing WITP:AE doesn't count?


No, you're right. What was I thinking?


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Gridley380)
Post #: 20
RE: New player strategy help - 7/12/2019 2:55:00 AM   
Korvar


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All hail logistics!




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