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Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/7/2019 9:29:05 PM

Judgementday

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Germans can get level four tanks and 800 MPPS by 1942 which will crush USSR regardless of how good you can defend it, China can not hold against Japan with a talented Japanese attack.

Playing Allies is just painful against a good Axis player.

Axis can easily push Mediterranean with just two German Tanks, a HQ and their air, Britain has little chance to stop them.

Ever wonder why almost no one will play the Allies?

Great game, but the balance sucks.

< Message edited by Judgementday -- 7/8/2019 3:02:36 PM >

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/7/2019 9:35:01 PM

Mercutio

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I can see how someone can concentrate on tanks, but 800 MPPs in 42? Early, late, middle? I take that this is MP? Can you give more details please? I am not saying you are wrong, just curious as to what happened.

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/7/2019 10:17:05 PM

Judgementday

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Germany will conquer so much of USSR (most likely the entire south, caucuses and Stalingrad that their MPP will sky rocket with enough tech towards Industry

< Message edited by Judgementday -- 7/7/2019 10:18:57 PM >

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/7/2019 11:15:20 PM

wevilc

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Well, I agree the Japs seem to be able to knock out China. Don�t know about the rest.

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/7/2019 11:46:13 PM

celebrindal

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Well then the AI must be a god. I just gave up on a game where Germany is pretty much dead in Mar 44, I've crushed the Chinese but can't seem to conquer them and now with the USSR after me and massive forces showing up from the rest of the allies, it's pretty much a waste of time to play any farther. To be honest I was trying to hold out to see if could conquer China but I don't see it happening now.

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/8/2019 12:55:34 AM

Judgementday

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This is not against AI, but real life opponents via open challenges

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/8/2019 5:20:22 AM

sveint

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For what it's worth I agree. Germany is too powerful, Soviets are too weak.

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/8/2019 1:26:50 PM

HamburgerMeat

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I think that this latest patch helped balance it out. Id still put the edge on the axis (I take this back, now having found out about the buff to forts), but only slightly. Let me know if want to try a game against my allies

Id also like to add that last patch, the game was clearly in favor of allies assuming you brought the western allies to the eastern front.

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 7/11/2019 1:27:38 AM >

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/8/2019 2:00:01 PM

Hubert Cater

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Hi Judgementday,

This has been debated for a little while and we also did a survey to get a wider feel on perceived balance and so far I would say it is not necessarily conclusive one way or the other, since as HamburgerMeat noted there were some specific strategies that the Allies could employ that were very difficult for the Axis to overcome despite any feelings of Soviet weaknesses.

But that being said, we'd be curious how players would find the new v1.03 patch in terms of balance as we've made quite a few changes that we feel should resolve all concerns. But of course the changes will only apply and truly be known to work, or not, only once you start a fresh campaign under v1.03.

If you have a chance, let us know how it goes,
Hubert

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/8/2019 5:36:10 PM

Judgementday

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Thank you for input

The latest patch will change things up a bit, but both helped and hurt USSR, Shock Armies at 3 turns vs 1, for 2 extra core, impact yet TDB, Core do not hold up but slow down the Germans, HQ supply reductions will probably have the most impact and MAY slow all offensive abilities to some degree. The entrenchment lvl 4 in fortress hexes MAY save Lenagrade and or Moscow, but USSR will be a minimum player at that time.

While China is still toast, USSR crippled and Britain holding on for dear life, and US trickles in making steady gains in both the Pacific and most likely Africa, then on to Italy.

As for reinforcing USSR with Britain or USA, USA is a non player other than Lead Lease, BTW if Validistock is taken by Japan, USA should have an option to reroute aide via Murmansk. Britain MAY be able to send South Africa or Sudan, which MAY save Persia but most likely not the Caucuses. That is a LONG trip and takes months to achieve and the troops are worn out upon arrival due to the poor supply along the way.

If the game is soooo balanced, then why are 90% of the open challenges players wanting to play Axis so they can beat up on the Allies.

I have played MANY (more than I can count) games, and love the game. but when I play a skilled Axis opponent the games are pretty much over by late to mid 43.

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/8/2019 5:52:09 PM

Hubert Cater

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I can add that with the latest patch, the effect on China will be more pronounced as well as the Japanese will generally have less supply in most areas due to the HQ distribution supply rule changes. North Africa will be much more challenging for the Axis side as well.

As mentioned, if you have a chance, please do give the latest patch release a try, perhaps taking up Hamburgermeats offer to play the Allies in a head to head challenge, and let us know how it goes.

Hubert

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/8/2019 5:53:27 PM

HamburgerMeat

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I think it is relatively balanced at higher levels of play. But then again, i havent played that many 1.03 games, so maybe im overestimating the effect supply changes has.

The allied player has to be creative when reacting to german aggression. It's definitely tough vs a skilled axis player. I'll admit the japanese may still have it too easy in China. But i believe the tools are there for the western allies to devestate the germans.

Im also of the mind that the USSR should be buffed at the expense of the US. USSR is still too weak for my liking. But the US is definitely a juggernaut

Let me know if youre down for a game

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 7/8/2019 5:56:19 PM >

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/8/2019 6:37:46 PM

Judgementday

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Hamburger Meat, thanks for the input and the challenge, let me finish one or two of my four current games, and then we can start one. Hard to squeeze in a 5th game and have time for it, I will PM you with a password challenge in the future.

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/10/2019 2:23:31 PM

ThunderLizard11

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The scale tips towards Axis with equally skilled players. One suggestion is to not allow double chits for armor - it's not allowed in WiE so not sure why it is for WaW. Also, I get why Russian units spawn near border but maybe have them a little further back so some can survive.

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/10/2019 2:42:07 PM

boudi

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From my point of vue, with 1.03.00 version, against an average or a good axis player ( i think that i'm an average player, not good, but not too bad) and at mid 1942, it's more or less unplayable for the Allies.

Mid 42' i lost Leningrad, japaneses took Vladivostok after DOW Soviet Union, China is out of the game, it was very easily destroyed by the japanese army with the support of its air force, Japanese fight now in Burma. Germans tooks Egypt, then Palestin, Irak, and they are now at Teheran. By Soviet union Germans took Caucasus with all oil fields. i don't know how India will be defended, attacked by rear and front.

The US army is long, long, too long to be ready for saving anything...

Soviet Union and China are far away too weak. I will see what will be the game later, in 1944, but at this time : unplayable.

< Message edited by boudi -- 7/10/2019 2:44:34 PM >

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/10/2019 2:47:00 PM

HamburgerMeat

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If double chits for armor/ground attack are removed, then Id at least revert the fortification change.

I think I prefer the consistency of double chits with smaller breakthroughs. This game is less dependent on RNG than WiE, with the course of the game being able to change with luck from 25% (or was it 40%) to 100% chance breakthrough

Maybe the rate of benefitting from double chit research could be toned down. Not sure. Id like to play 1.03 more first.

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 7/10/2019 2:50:02 PM >

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/10/2019 3:58:12 PM

HamburgerMeat

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Seems like a lot of people are having a tough time playing allies. I'll write up some pointers later this week that have worked for me

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/10/2019 4:14:41 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: boudi

From my point of vue, with 1.03.00 version, against an average or a good axis player ( i think that i'm an average player, not good, but not too bad) and at mid 1942, it's more or less unplayable for the Allies.

Mid 42' i lost Leningrad, japaneses took Vladivostok after DOW Soviet Union, China is out of the game, it was very easily destroyed by the japanese army with the support of its air force, Japanese fight now in Burma. Germans tooks Egypt, then Palestin, Irak, and they are now at Teheran. By Soviet union Germans took Caucasus with all oil fields. i don't know how India will be defended, attacked by rear and front.

The US army is long, long, too long to be ready for saving anything...

Soviet Union and China are far away too weak. I will see what will be the game later, in 1944, but at this time : unplayable.

Hi Boudi,

Thanks and can you confirm that this is from a fresh multiplayer game started under v1.03, and not one that was continued from v1.02?

I just ask as there will be a bit of a difference between a game continued from v1.02 as none of the campaign changes would be in effect.

Hubert

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/10/2019 4:33:09 PM

Hubert Cater

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Also if you continue a game from v1.02, and it is a game that is well into the war prior to switching to v1.03, then none of the supply rule changes will have a dramatic effect either as Japan would have likely already pushed far into China, and Germany would have already pushed well into the USSR and North Africa etc.

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/10/2019 6:08:55 PM

boudi

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Hi Hubert,

Yes the game started under 1.02. Allies difficulties started before the 1.03.

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/10/2019 7:18:57 PM

Hubert Cater

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Thanks for the info, much appreciated, and we suspect that a new game under v1.03 will be a bit different, please let us know

.

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/10/2019 7:40:27 PM

Hubert Cater

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I just wanted to add and to quickly reiterate what I just posted in another thread...

We have made a number of changes to v1.03 that we sincerely do think will help address these imbalance concerns... we now just hope players will try it, as we are listening and making changes to improve things as requested

Hubert

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/10/2019 7:58:22 PM

HamburgerMeat

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I think the problem is partially due to the fact that it is easier to play the axis at a decent level than the allies. Simply double research chit advanced tanks, ground attack weapons, S&I, and go to town. As long as you're basically on schedule for barbaossa, and youve been steadily advancing in China, you're in good shape to win.

As the allies, you really cant afford to make big mistakes for the first three years. You have to balance the use of rivers and terrain vs maintaining a solid line at crucial points. You have to research the "right" techs. And when the US comes up to bat, you have to strike so hard that the germans/japanese have no choice but to turn around.

Knowing how to use the allied toolkit is much harder. But they do have the tools

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 7/10/2019 8:05:18 PM >

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/10/2019 11:29:15 PM

Judgementday

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Update on 1.3 and it's impacts on balance:

Hamburger and I started the a 1.3, Hamburger is Axis and I Allies, as I enjoy the Allies in all WWII games and the challenges they offer.

However, although we are still early in the war and I have to give Hamburger credit for possibly (most likely) being the best Axis player I have had the opportunity to play against.

� Poland falls in turn one (amazing, he is the first Axis I have seen pull off this feat, well done), 09/1940,
� Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg and Denmark all out by 12/1940
� Italy joins Axis 01/1940
� Germany installs Vichy 03/01/1940
� China is down two armies & two core, their air crippled and too expensive to repair, several core are damaged. The entire south is taken and there is a big push on Sian. Japan is one hex from Kweichow, Sian, Yanku, Paotow. But I do hold Inchang (for now). Communist China just joined.

Although, to his credit, HamburgerMeat is about a month ahead of most Axis players I have encountered, a good Axis player (and I have played many) will repeat these same results time and time again. A moderate Axis players wont be far behind, and USSR cant not hold against the level 3/4 tanks/halftracks and +2/3 ground strike air that they have to look forward to. They will lose 3/4 units a turn, which is a loss rate they can not survive. The only other option would be to defend at Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad from the start and give up HUGH early gains, in a hope of holding till the US and Britain can apply enough pressure to relieve them in possibly 43.

As the playing community becomes more skilled, it becomes more and more apparent that the Allies are doomed, unless the Axis make several serious mistakes or are to timid, as they do need to be bold, just not reckless.

I'm sure HamburgerMeat can put up a good Allied game, but enough to overcome the imbalance the game currently offers against a skilled Axis, would be difficult to do.

I would rate myself a fair player, and as such, the game is unplayable as Allies as it is currently offered.

Again, I LOVE the game, I have played probably 20+, with 1/2 games ongoing since its' launch.

But it is in desperate need of adjustments. In my humble opinion.

1.3 was a step in the right direction, but all aspects of the Axis progression are easily 1-2 months ahead of historical.

And the scary part of this whole conversation is that thread is a great training instruction for the other Axis players on how to beat the Allies. So I only have to look forward to even better Axis opponents in the future.

< Message edited by Judgementday -- 7/10/2019 11:35:11 PM >

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/11/2019 12:53:35 AM

ThunderLizard11

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HamburgerMeat

I think the problem is partially due to the fact that it is easier to play the axis at a decent level than the allies. Simply double research chit advanced tanks, ground attack weapons, S&I, and go to town. As long as you're basically on schedule for barbaossa, and youve been steadily advancing in China, you're in good shape to win.

As the allies, you really cant afford to make big mistakes for the first three years. You have to balance the use of rivers and terrain vs maintaining a solid line at crucial points. You have to research the "right" techs. And when the US comes up to bat, you have to strike so hard that the germans/japanese have no choice but to turn around.

Knowing how to use the allied toolkit is much harder. But they do have the tools

What's your strategy for Allies?

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/11/2019 12:55:14 AM

pjg100

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I do not agree with the critique that the game is drastically unbalanced in favor of the Axis. I think we should give it some time under 1.03.

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/11/2019 1:18:24 AM

HamburgerMeat

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I'll post something in a few days or so. I'm primarily an axis player, so I'm sure there are better Allied players than me out there who have better ideas.

I'm also not sure about how effective the new anti-tank will be. I suspect that, even with the buffs, it's better to use your money on advanced tanks (since anti tank can only attack one), but if you're not one for counter-punching, then it might be worth going down that route.

< Message edited by HamburgerMeat -- 7/11/2019 1:20:34 AM >

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/11/2019 12:30:28 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

I'm sure HamburgerMeat can put up a good Allied game, but enough to overcome the imbalance the game currently offers against a skilled Axis, would be difficult to do.

Thanks for the feedback Judgementday, much appreciated. It sounds like Hamburgermeat is a very good player, regardless of side, and it would indeed be interesting to see a mirrored game, where you play Axis to his Allies to see how that went. I suspect it will help us quite a bit in further painting a picture on game balance.

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/11/2019 1:51:06 PM

boudi

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Can we say that the soft building limits option favors Axis or not ?

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RE: Game favors Axis and is unbalanced - 7/11/2019 2:01:09 PM

Judgementday

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I do not play games with soft build limits, it would lend itself to crazy strategies built around production pared with tech for 2/3 key units, Armor and Air, most likely, which are already probably too strong. The ability for Germany to get level 4 tanks by 42, with 5s on the way, is already a death sentence for USSR.

But, it is clearly the Axis that have the initial Technical advantage, soft building limits would probably amplify this, as they would almost certainly build even more armor and halftracks probably abandoning infantry all together.

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