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What's next - 7/14/2019 12:22:14 PM

ncc1701e

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I am wondering something since a while. Would it be possible to extend the WITP:AE engine to European theater? I would like a good naval game for the battle of Atlantic and for the Mediterranean sea.

Is the devs still around? Is there no license problem to do this?

Thanks

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RE: What's next - 7/14/2019 12:58:58 PM

btd64

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Dali has a war in the west mod. You will find it in the modding part of this forum, in a sticky thread called scenarios for AE or something like that....GP

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RE: What's next - 7/14/2019 6:26:33 PM

geofflambert

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The modelling for land combat in this game is adequate for much of the island warfare going on, but it would not transfer favorably to the ETO. The naval modelling for this game is way, way, way too good for an ETO game. The air war modelling might translate well, but I haven't thought about it much. In this game I consider attacking land targets to be perilous with little gain to show for it. At times, attacking airfields and ports is well worth it, and some strategic bombing may be called for. But the kind of air interdiction going on in the ETO is not modelled here at all. How many squadrons does it take to shut down n number of miles of railroad track? This game has no answer for that. How many squadrons of P-47s does it take to prevent armor movement during daylight? This game doesn't handle that.

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RE: What's next - 7/14/2019 6:30:44 PM

geofflambert

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If you look at the rail nets in Europe that existed at the time, there is nothing remotely similar to that anywhere in the PTO, not Australia or Japan or anywhere else. So how rail traffic is handled in this game would necessarily be inadequate for an ETO game. You can say the same for major and minor road nets. This game didn't need to handle anything remotely like what was in Europe, so it didn't.

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RE: What's next - 7/14/2019 6:38:03 PM

geofflambert

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A reason land warfare works ok in WitP-AE in part is the Chinese don't have any tanks and not many trucks, and hardly any fuel if they did have any. When you get into warfare in the Burma/Bangladesh area things get a bit dicier, but if only Commonwealth troops are involved on one side, their replacements will be totally inadequate and they never have enough engineers.

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RE: What's next - 7/14/2019 6:49:31 PM

spence

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quote:

The naval modelling for this game is way, way, way too good for an ETO game.

Except for the U-boat arm of the Kriegsmarine the substitution of the Germans for the Japanese is way off-base. Although many German ships (surface) were quite good technically the command structure of the Kriegsmarine was rather hesitant to engage the British and uninspired (except perhaps in Operation Weserubung where they lost many ships anyways). Thus their experience and commanders would not have the advantages afforded the Japanese in the game - they'd start off as the same as the British (or even worse). The same would apply to the Italians and their ships were not as technically good AND they suffered from a severe shortage of fuel which kept much of their fleet tied up to the pier through much of the war.

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RE: What's next - 7/14/2019 6:49:53 PM

Alpha77

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I agree, mostly the land warfare part would be not the best for European theater...also there was not much naval action going on after 43 as the Germans lost most of their ships or hid them in Norwegian fjords. For the Italians it would be the same it seems only their subs and fast torpedo boats did some real action...and they surrendered quite early (or changed sides) and then their navy was not much a factor. SO the naval part would be quite boring with the Allies having total supremacy (even more then in the pacific) only small craft and u-boats warfare would be mainly left for a naval part of the game...

There are also enough games for this theater which modell the land warfare quite good... esp. TOAW as well some more Matrix and Tiller etc. games. FOr more bread and butter even HOI 3 or 4.

For tactical combat in Europe also lots of games, of course I will name the old but golden Steel Panthers firstly cause I played that "quite a bit" (at least 10 long campaigns and ca. 80-90 PBMs)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 7/14/2019 6:53:19 PM >

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RE: What's next - 7/14/2019 6:55:08 PM

geofflambert

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The Germans were better than anyone in airlaunched guided bombs that could sink ships.

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RE: What's next - 7/14/2019 7:52:41 PM

GetAssista

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Naval warfare would be nigh absent in European theatre, dominated by LBA. Naval routes themselves are very restricted, and ASW battle in the Atlantic is not what you would call an interesting game. So what's the point of WITP model, when you can have WITE

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RE: What's next - 7/16/2019 9:26:55 PM

ncc1701e

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I agree that there has been less naval battle, but I am still looking for a good naval game on the Battle of the Atlantic and the Mediterranean Sea. Abstraction has its own limits. I would like a more detailed simulation.

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RE: What's next - 7/16/2019 10:55:50 PM

Dili

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quote:

The naval modelling for this game is way, way, way too good for an ETO game.

Most of naval combat in AE would be repeated in Mediterranean, so no it is not too good , in fact it is limiting.

We don't have proper surface combat fleet action in AE, with destroyers given torpedo attack orders and moving as a destroyer divisions. Punta Stilo and other naval battles show how things operated at fleet level.
In AE you don't have sea states preventing PT's from waging war. You can also unrealistic bombard every coastal hex and repeat it ad eternum, but battleships gun tube should have only last 2-3 bombardments at most, then back to base to replace the liner... not even talking about Yamato which needed new gun tubes apparently. While midgets can simulate Italian chariots and frogmen , the Italian submarines took 3 or 4 chariots not only one. Alsois impossible with AE to simulate the attack in HMS York with explosive motorboats. Or HMS Eridge attack, you have to send 10000 supply to "produce" a PT.
Magnetic mines are also not reproduced in AE, but they were important in Mediterranean. Italians had to get several aux ships dedicated solely to magnetic mine neutralization. Germans had Ju-52 and the British Wellingtons for the same propose.
And btw aerial naval mining started in 1940 in Mediterranean by Swordfish. Never understood why the game has hardcodedthat - an apparent waste of resources - when device properties can restrict it.

-------

Dali has an Operation Husky too.

< Message edited by Dili -- 7/16/2019 10:56:12 PM >

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RE: What's next - 7/17/2019 2:38:29 AM

Rusty1961

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This system could work for a Med campaign, '40 to '43. If you want other than that you have WitW and WitE2.

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RE: What's next - 7/17/2019 3:23:56 AM

Dili

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The biggest problems for Med are the AI , the Calendar or instead triggers, and implement an allied ship "trade-losses" arrival

Calendar from my unfinished Mod:
25 June 1940 France Armistice (most French units retire)
27 Oct 1940 Most Greek Units arrive
28 Oct 1940 Italian Attack against Greece can start, British can send troops to Greece.
01 April 1941 Pro Axis Iraq coup. Axis can send aircraft/troops via Vichy Levant, to Iraq.
05 April 1941 German, Hungarian, Bulgarian, Yugoslav Units arrive
06 April 1941 German invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece can start
08 June 1941 Allied Invasion of Vichy Levant can start
08 Nov 1942 Allied Invasion of Vichy North Africa (Operation Torch), Axis can occupy Corsica, Tunisia, Argelia.

For Allies just for example CVE Argus arrives to Mediterranean 10 times. If it gets sunk or damaged this need to be taken in account, likewise for several cruisers and major ships.

Besides there are a lot of what if's, reluctant participants that may or not may act, to not talk about technical issues, for example can the player send a horse/mule based Italian Divisions to the desert? or a German mountain one? If there isn't a "physical" barrier Greek forces(Activated October 40) take the supply from Royal Yugoslav forces(activated April 41) since there is a contiguous border.

< Message edited by Dili -- 7/17/2019 3:25:07 AM >

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RE: What's next - 7/17/2019 3:43:55 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I agree that there has been less naval battle, but I am still looking for a good naval game on the Battle of the Atlantic and the Mediterranean Sea. Abstraction has its own limits. I would like a more detailed simulation.

warspite1

This is not true. There was was more naval engagements in the Mediterranean than the Pacific. The only thing the Med lacks that the Pacific had was carrier vs carrier warfare. Everything else is there in abundance. And if you add in the Atlantic theatre, the Baltic, the English Channel, the Arctic Ocean and the North Sea/Norwegian Sea then there's a good deal more.

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RE: What's next - 7/17/2019 4:13:21 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

This system could work for a Med campaign, '40 to '43. If you want other than that you have WitW and WitE2.

The AE engine can not be used to create a commercially viable Mediterranean/North Atlantic game.

Alfred

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RE: What's next - 7/17/2019 5:40:42 AM

Dili

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I don't know the inner guts of the engine and what expense to modify it, but a lot of countries = a lot of potential market can appear in a Med game. From Spain to Turkey as options, from Hungary to Greece, Yugoslavia to Bulgaria and the usual suspects plus troops from South Africa, India, NZ, Australia, Poland, even Dutch, Polish and Canadians appear.

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RE: What's next - 7/17/2019 5:45:09 AM

Dili

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I agree that there has been less naval battle, but I am still looking for a good naval game on the Battle of the Atlantic and the Mediterranean Sea. Abstraction has its own limits. I would like a more detailed simulation.

warspite1

This is not true. There was was more naval engagements in the Mediterranean than the Pacific. The only thing the Med lacks that the Pacific had was carrier vs carrier warfare. Everything else is there in abundance. And if you add in the Atlantic theatre, the Baltic, the English Channel, the Arctic Ocean and the North Sea/Norwegian Sea then there's a good deal more.

You can give the option to build Sparviero and Aquila faster and drop Roma and whatever they have done in Impero...

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RE: What's next - 7/17/2019 8:05:53 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

I don't know the inner guts of the engine and what expense to modify it, but a lot of countries = a lot of potential market can appear in a Med game. From Spain to Turkey as options, from Hungary to Greece, Yugoslavia to Bulgaria and the usual suspects plus troops from South Africa, India, NZ, Australia, Poland, even Dutch, Polish and Canadians appear.

The potential size of the market is not the problem, although you do underestimate the commercial importance of a product appealing to the US market. Sales to the American market are much harder to make if historically American forces did not play a dominant role. As to a 1940-43 product, the major markets would be the UK, Germany and Italy. You would need several hypothetical scenarios to excite much interest in most of the other countries you nominated.

The real problem lies in the unsuitability of the AE engine itself. The current:

combat algorithms (for sea, air and land combat)
logistics
intel
economic production

to name only the four most affected areas, would need to be completely rewritten from scratch. Failure to do so would bring to market a product which would be severely criticised by potential buyers for not producing realistic outcomes. That would kill sales.

Alfred

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RE: What's next - 7/17/2019 6:04:44 PM

Dili

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Thanks Alfred.

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RE: What's next - 7/18/2019 1:33:40 AM

geofflambert

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The core naval portion of the game would have to be about sub interactions with surface ASW and with CVE ASW and with land based ASW. I wouldn't say WitP-AE is particularly good in that area, but adequate. CVEs will be interacting with U-boats and nothing else. You might have some air battles in the Med between Axis land based aircraft on Sicily and UK CVs, but I don't think it's enough reason to use WitP-AE as a model game engine. Either the game engine can simulate what happens on a European battlefield (between land forces) or it isn't worth spit.

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RE: What's next - 7/18/2019 3:15:49 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

The core naval portion of the game would have to be about sub interactions with surface ASW and with CVE ASW and with land based ASW. I wouldn't say WitP-AE is particularly good in that area, but adequate. CVEs will be interacting with U-boats and nothing else. You might have some air battles in the Med between Axis land based aircraft on Sicily and UK CVs, but I don't think it's enough reason to use WitP-AE as a model game engine.

warspite1

Why only this? What about the naval engagements? Just curious.

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RE: What's next - 7/18/2019 3:31:40 PM

geofflambert

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You're right, but I think the carrier portion didn't interact that much with surface vessels, if I'm remembering right. It's almost like surface actions should be a separate game or module that feeds results into the main game.

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RE: What's next - 7/18/2019 4:26:28 PM

Moltrey

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What's next?

Nothing.

Nada, zip, zilch... based on this thread and the last to broach the subject and the attitude of the two people left that are close enough to Matrix and the (defunct) Henderson Field Design devs, Alfred and the Moderator(s).
This is just my "reading of the room" if you will. But the door appears to be permanently closed on such initiatives. Alfred seems rather put out that he had to (once again) deny any outside inquiry through channels would change matters and then the thread was promptly locked by a Moderator. That should tell all of us who would believe otherwise that hope is misguided at best, perhaps foolish.

Sad, yes; but not altogether surprising. The game obviously still has "legs", which in my opinion is part of the problem. Regardless of the 30500+ threads on the forums that dwarf the next most popular game, they have apparently made the final determination that due to whatever reasons, War in the Pacific: Admirals Edition will not see the development que.

So, to wrap, that tells me that no one capable is interested in revisiting the game, not even Michael.
We will have to rely on what can be accomplished with mods.

Never say never- a future game of some type might appear, but I doubt it would be a Grigsby-style game, which would disappoint loads of grognards here due to the lack of detail, mostly b/c they aren't Grigsby.

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RE: What's next - 7/18/2019 5:22:26 PM

Gridley380

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

So, to wrap, that tells me that no one capable is interested in revisiting the game, not even Michael.
We will have to rely on what can be accomplished with mods.

Never say never- a future game of some type might appear, but I doubt it would be a Grigsby-style game, which would disappoint loads of grognards here due to the lack of detail, mostly b/c they aren't Grigsby.

Look at the silver lining - if Matrix isn't going to do it, then there's no competition for another group that wants to develop something from scratch. Said theoretical group has the advantage of knowing there is a market and where to find potential playtesters, database developers, etc.. Remember that while the game engine is copyrighted, the historical data in the game can't be.

While I agree that WITP:AE is the best in its class, it is also based on an engine over a decade old. Software continues to evolve, as does the readily available data on the war. Sometimes it is easier to start from scratch than it is to update.

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RE: What's next - 7/18/2019 7:09:55 PM

Dili

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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

You're right, but I think the carrier portion didn't interact that much with surface vessels, if I'm remembering right. It's almost like surface actions should be a separate game or module that feeds results into the main game.

That is silly, from aircraft carrier to land attacks, to Matapan, to some other battles. It is true there wasn't much carrier successes in open sea but that doesn't mean it could not have happen, and what if's like Italians starting building their carrier just at war beginning.

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RE: What's next - 7/18/2019 10:09:06 PM

Moltrey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380
Look at the silver lining - if Matrix isn't going to do it, then there's no competition for another group that wants to develop something from scratch. Said theoretical group has the advantage of knowing there is a market and where to find potential playtesters, database developers, etc.. Remember that while the game engine is copyrighted, the historical data in the game can't be.

While I agree that WITP:AE is the best in its class, it is also based on an engine over a decade old. Software continues to evolve, as does the readily available data on the war. Sometimes it is easier to start from scratch than it is to update.

Well, part of me would welcome any such development. But the cynical side would bet that the group would not choose to be as detail-oriented as Grigsby has been known for through the years. It's a fundamental problem in our niche community. Gary won't be around forever as an active developer and we are all spoiled with the high bar he set. It would be a small chance I'd wager that we end up with a group as dedicated and crazy about WW2, etc.

Nice to dream about though...

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RE: What's next - 7/18/2019 10:54:55 PM

USSAmerica

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gridley380

While I agree that WITP:AE is the best in its class, it is also based on an engine over a decade old. Software continues to evolve, as does the readily available data on the war. Sometimes it is easier to start from scratch than it is to update.

More than a decade old for the engine. 11 days from now will be the 10 year anniversary of AE's release. I bought it that day. WitP was 2004, and was based on the engine developed for Uncommon Valor around 2002. She's a solid antique in the realm of computer games.

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RE: What's next - 7/19/2019 12:06:34 AM

rustysi

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quote:

She's a solid antique in the realm of computer games.

More like an archaeological find.

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RE: What's next - 7/19/2019 1:28:51 AM

geofflambert

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

You're right, but I think the carrier portion didn't interact that much with surface vessels, if I'm remembering right. It's almost like surface actions should be a separate game or module that feeds results into the main game.

That is silly, from aircraft carrier to land attacks, to Matapan, to some other battles. It is true there wasn't much carrier successes in open sea but that doesn't mean it could not have happen, and what if's like Italians starting building their carrier just at war beginning.

The ETO will never be a carrier game. Comma. Or semicolon. Or something, I can't remember.

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Post #: 29

RE: What's next - 7/19/2019 1:56:41 AM

Dili

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2 carriers were sunk in Med, 3 heavily damaged... 5 carriers in that photo for operation Pedestal https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205016068

Partial account of Pedestal convoy with many photos and some videos.

http://www.armouredcarriers.com/operation-pedestal-august-10-12-1942

< Message edited by Dili -- 7/19/2019 1:58:52 AM >

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Post #: 30