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Another question about "Core Forces" - 6/23/2003 10:40:02 PM

Vathailos

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From: In a van, down by the river.
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I�ve been going through old posts here in the training forum, trying to look at advice for starting core forces. I�m most experienced with playing Germany starting in 1939. I�m constantly reevaluating my �ultimate� core force composition, based on the advice I see here. For example, I used to steer clear of smaller recon units because I wasn�t able to use them as effectively, used to rely on very heavy armor to do the scouting unless mines were involved. Now, I�ve adjusted and am finding that recon teams and kubelwagons are effective as well.

Just read a post suggesting that you keep your core force small so that by the end of the campaign, the computer can buy enough units to give you an decent fight.

How big is �too big�. The more I use infantry, and see the value of �elite� units, the more I include them in my core.

Right now, here�s my typical start, please critique:

A0 HQ
B0 Command Vehicle (StuG 42)

C0-C3 Ammo Trucks

D0-D3 88mm AT (88mm AA)

E0-E3 Prime Mover (SdKfz 11) (SP Rockets)

F0-F3 Halftrack 4 Plt (SP Rockets)

G0-G3 SP AA Plt (Wirblewind)

H0-H3 SP AA Plt (Wirblewind)

I0-I2 Armored Car Sec (Brumbars)

J0-J2 Armored Car Sec (Brumbars)

K0-K2 Mot Mortar Sec (1 Pz IIb, 1 FO, 1 50mm mortar)

L0-L2 Mot Mortar Sec (1 Pz IIb, 1 FO, 1 50mm mortar)

M0-M2 Armored Car Sec (1 Kettenfrad, 1 Beob 253, 1 AT Halftrack)

N0-N3 Scout Section (1 28mm AT, 1 4-man scouts, 1 81mm mortar)

O0-O2 Armored Car Sec (1 Kettenfrad, 1 Beob 253, 1 AT Halftrack)

P0-P3 Scout Section (1 28mm AT, 1 4-man scouts, 1 81mm mortar)

Q0-Q3 Cargo Aircract

R0-R5 SS Plt (Airborne Troops)

S0-S3 Calvary (2X120mm mortars/2 AT sec) (dropped)

T0-T2 Special Ops Sqds

U0-U2 Special Ops Sqds

V0-V7 Mech Infantry Plt (4 FT Engineers/4 Panther G�s)

W0-W7 Mech Infantry Plt (4 FT Engineers/4 Panther G�s)

X0-X3 Support Pz Plt (Flammenpanzer II�s)

Y0-Y2 Lt Panzer Sec (1 JagedTiger/2 Jagedpanthers)

Z0-Z2 Lt Panzer Sec (1 JagedTiger/2 Jagedpanthers)

AA0-AA3 Support Pz Plt (Tigers)

AB0-AB3 Support Pz Plt (Tigers)

Too big? What would you change? Distribution of Arty/Armor/Infantry?

Post #: 1

- 6/24/2003 1:16:23 AM

rbrunsman

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That's a pretty strong core force. Is this your starting core for a late war campaign?

I'm no expert on WWII OOBs, but it seems you are mixing and matching units in an ahistoric way which gives you advantages that your AI opponent won't have. (e.g. a StuH42 for an A0 ride and engineers riding Panther Gs)

Ammo trucks and cargo planes seem like a waste to me.

Where's your regular infantry? The regular German soldier is one of the best in the world and you only got engineers, Spec Ops and FJ/SS.

I think you will roll over anything the AI throws at you which doesn't sound like much fun to me.

Also, Brumbars are not Armored Cars.

I don't think you need that many FOs.

I wouldn't use rockets against the AI (again, too easy for you).

That's also about 103 units if I counted correctly. Add in your support units for each scenario and the AI won't be able to compete with you at all.

Just my 2 cents.

_____________________________

Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

(in reply to Vathailos)

Post #: 2

Clarification and Thanks... - 6/24/2003 1:59:28 AM

Vathailos

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RB, first off, I appreciate the critique. I was afraid my core was a little heavy. I'd actually started with much smaller cores in the past, and because of a few posts here, decided to use more of the points available at creation.

As for clarification, I know a Brumbar is not an armored car ;). What I've done an apparently poor job of illustrating is what I purchase at the beginning (in 1939) as place holders, and what I've converted them to by the end of the WWII campaign (shown in parenthesis). For example, I'll get a Mercedes or Opal Command truck initially as a ride for my A0, then STuG B, then F/8, then finally the H42. I left out all the "middle genesis" information. I wouldn't keep my light tanks as PzIIc's until the JagedTiger was available. I'd convert them to IIIj's along the way, or STuG G's. Hope that clears a bit up.

I've found that the SS troops are indeed powerful, but I like the Airborne. That's why I go with the cargo planes. I can drop 6 sticks of paratroops, and they typically some AT and mortar support. That gives me flexibility when the mission is an assault, with timed VH's, and there's a large mine field to contend with. I'll work some of the VH's and the fields simultaneously with this mix.

Also, I take the Special Forces to support my Airborne drops. Considering only 1-2/3 of them will make the objective typically, that leaves me with 2-4 platoons of them as well. On the offense, I typically transport my Engineers with Halftracks until the Panther's available. But on the defense, I find my combination direct fire artillery compensates for the infantry mis-match (typically the computer sends about 4-to-1 if not more in terms of foot troops).

Are 2 FO's really too many? In my current core force, I have two. Reason being, I like to increase their experience for obvious reasons, and buying them as support units doesn't really give me that option. Next engagement for example, those fellas that were FO's last time are now a platoon of prime movers because of mission dictates. I don't buy FO's with support points. Typically only recon elements or OB artillery.

I only use rockets because of the infantry imbalance. With this new core, I'm only as far as the African campaign against the Brits, but already they're massing 40+ platoons of foot soldiers, many small mortars, 16+ Grants, and double that in Crusaders against me. If I've only got a total of 20 infantry units, four 88's, and 20 AFVs, I've got my work cut out for me.

I took the cargo airplanes and ammo trucks because I play with rarity "on" and if they weren't available for whatever reason (weather, etc.) I would have airborne troops walking into battle, and one-shot wonders for my main artillery support.

All that said, I do appreciate your take in the issue, and was wondering what, in terms of a point total, would you consider a "fair" starting size for a 1939 WWII campaign? What would you consider a fair size in terms of number of units? What is a more typical "historical" composition? I certainly wouldn't want to play PvP with what was considered an "unfair" mix of units.

That is still a gray area for me. For example, why the restriction on artillery purchases? If the other guy spends 90% of his points on artillery, they you should have an overwhelming ground force. Get a few infiltrators into his backfield and unless it's all OB (and therefore limited ammo), you'll "even the odds" somewhat.

I'm prepared to see that last one as a stupid question down the road with the benefit of hindsight ;).

Thanks again for the thoughts!

~Vath

(in reply to Vathailos)

Post #: 3

- 6/24/2003 6:55:03 AM

rbrunsman

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From: Phoenix, AZ
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In no particular order:

All is clear now. You've upgraded since 1939. That makes sense. I've never been able to last as long as you have in the long campaign. Once my core gets so experienced, it's not really much of a fight no matter what the AI throws at me.

A Beob is an Armored FO, IIRC. So, you have 4 FOs. more than 1 is definitely good practice, but 4 is a little much.

Brit and Russian infantry is no match for German infantry, so they need that huge numberical superiority to make it a fair fight. I mean really, if you look at those guys crossly, they are likely to run away don't you agree? ;)

I commend you for playing with rarity on, but you've taken out the "risk" of that haven't you, by having everything you need in your core?

Brit armor has the silly weakness that they made some tanks strictly AP firing and some tanks strictly HE firing. Thus, your infantry can easily assault the AP tanks and your tanks can easily engage the HE tanks. So, you would expect they need at least a 2 to 1 advantage over you just to get even.

Try playing a 30 turn game with massed arty and see how boring it gets. That's the reason for the arty restrictions.

I'm no expert on OOBs, but it seems to me that you should have alot of infantry (50%). Try starting them a motorized at first (if you must), then upgrade them to mechanized (keep them HTs). Then you should have 25% AFV and the rest support units and onboard arty. I think that mix will keep you honest and make for challenging engagements against the AI.

Aren't you just walking through the AI with what you have at this point given the equipment and experience your units have?

By about mid-1942, those long campaigns just get too easy.

These are just my random thoughts. I'm not particularly wedded to any of my ideas. I just think you've won the arms race already so there isn't really much to do but go through the motions in your campaign.

Thoughts?

_____________________________

Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 4

- 6/24/2003 10:18:29 AM

Irinami

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Want my advice? Too bad, you're getting it anyway.

Battle Points: 1100.

Germany, January 1939.

1 PzG Mot. Company (under Infantry). Buy as cheap as you can.
1 Light Recon Company (under Miscellaneous). Again, cheap as you can.
As many 2-man scout teams as you can afford.

This should put you around 60 units or so, give you a force that's a challenge with at first but not impossible... and one that's eminently upgradeable.

_____________________________

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Post #: 5

- 6/24/2003 7:57:46 PM

Warhorse

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I usually edit my campaigns using the built in editor, and wawedit, to make the AI force more of a challenge!! You can simulate an elite force, and boost the enemy exp, and morale, etc. I always play with a HUGE force, so the AI needs all the help it can get!!

Warhorse

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www.cslegion.com

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Post #: 6

- 6/24/2003 8:32:18 PM

Vathailos

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RB,

I made a mistake on my documentation. I now see where you got your 4 FO�s.

Right now, I have the two 253 Beobs. Yes, they are FO vehicles. What I�m actually doing is looking to find a recon unit (and may go with the Lynx) that carries a four-man recon team. I�d prefer a wheeled scout armored car type. Most of the ones in the encyclopedia seem to have a carrying capacity of 2. :( Any suggestions? This �group� serves the dual role of rear security for my arty and quick reinforcements for any counterattacks. I would love to have a 6-member section with 1 small ATG, one foot and one wheeled Recon asset, transport for the ATG, one mortar team, and one wheeled TD for any mechanized recon units that make it through that are out of range/sight of my little ATG.

I have a personal grudge against halftracks. Not because they�re ineffective, it�s that they�re almost impossible to raise �seasoned� crews with because they�re always dying. Whether it�s 2� mortar fire in the top, an assaulting enemy infantry squad�s RPG, mine field, or a formerly unseen ATG, they pop all too often. I just get frustrated (especially with Germany near the end of the campaign as troop replacement quality gets lower and lower) watching my veterans and elite crews turn into raw recruits again and again. The Panthers carry 8 of the 9-10 men in my Engineer squads, and have a greatly increased capability for survival. I typically only have 14 other AFVs in my core, so the 8 Panthers were a supplement there too.

As far as wiping out the AI goes, on defense missions, yes. I typically rout them. I�m getting better at advances and assaults too. But from what I remember, later in the campaign, the waves of U.S. air strikes and Russian artillery make it very dangerous for my AFVs. That�s why my current �huge� core force carries 2 platoons of SP AA units and one platoon of 88s that are converted over time to AA assets. I�m hoping that by the time I hit the Western front I�ll have elite crews in most of my AA vehicles. I shudder to see any rocket-equipped plane fly in, strafe my Brumbar, only to fly out unscathed (because I know he�ll be back). And those B-25�s? Yikes! :eek:

I�ll let you know how this one concludes, but I sincerely appreciate your input. Thanks for the percentages!

Irinami,

I very much appreciate the suggested point total. I made (oddly enough) a UK force last night up with your recommended point total/number of units and RB�s percentages. I�m fighting my first scenario against the Germans now (could have used a warm up against the Italians :D) and it�s fun and definitely challenging.

I have two questions for you as well.

First: Aren�t your unit�s attributes (scores in INF/ARM/ART) based on the initial type of unit purchased for that slot? I find when I upgrade a unit that was Infantry (for example) to an artillery unit, that it still has low ART scores and high INF scores (ex. 42 vs. 72). I�ve tried to make my core up of the �right number� of whatever type of unit I�ll eventually convert that slot holder to in the end.

Clear as mud? Sorry. What I meant to say is that if I want to eventually have some organic 75mm PAKs, I�ll buy some 37mm ATGs at the beginning as �placeholders� just because they�ll have a better ART rating. Does that make sense? Or more importantly, does that theory hold water?

Second: When the computer/AI buys its forces, does it get the same number of points to do it with that you have in both your �core� and support? Assuming you have the battle toggled to �Medium� of course.

Thanks in advance folks, and for your information you�ve already provided.

EDIT

and because he's quicker to post than I am, a reply to Warhorse as well...

I don't think I'm computer/SP-saavy enough to tackle that task just yet (the editing that is), but on occasion I do choose the setting ("harder"?) where the enemy gets more points than you do (by a multiple of 1.5 or 2.0 I think).

One thing I was concerned about was that I read here that there can be a maximum of 400 units tracked by the computer in any battle. If we buy a large core force (ex. 160 units) and buy big on the support side too (another 60 units), then our total of 220 units means the computer can only purchase 180 units regardless of the number of points it has to spend.

That's why I'm re-thinking my recent decision to make a larger "core".

Might I reserve the right to PM you later (when I know more) about just how to upgrade/edit the AI's experience level?

Thanks to you too!

~Vath

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Post #: 7

- 6/24/2003 8:55:22 PM

Irinami

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Vathailos
[B]Irinami,

I very much appreciate the suggested point total.[/B][/QUOTE]

Thank you. :)

[QUOTE][B]I have two questions for you as well.

First: Aren�t your unit�s attributes (scores in INF/ARM/ART) based on the initial type of unit purchased for that slot? I find when I upgrade a unit that was Infantry (for example) to an artillery unit, that it still has low ART scores and high INF scores (ex. 42 vs. 72). I�ve tried to make my core up of the �right number� of whatever type of unit I�ll eventually convert that slot holder to in the end.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, that's exactly the case.

Here's an example. Using the formation I suggested, I upgraded one of my Inf Platoons to have SdKfzw 251/1 halftracks instead of Opel Blitz trucks. The problem is, that last halftrack only carried an MG34... cost 4.

So I changed the last Blitz truck to an SdKfzw 251/10 (halftrack armed with a 3.7cm PaK 35/36), which has a carry capacity of 5--just enough for that MG. Since the truck is considered "Armor," and so is the 251/10, it's a "good trade." He started with a decent Armor command, and he can still use that. Even if I made him a Koenigstiger, he'd still be a good one (despite his Company being an Infantry one--it depends on what the unit started as). Now, if I made him a towed PaK gun, I'd have problems. His Artillery rating is crap.

Likewise, those 2 75mm Infantry Guns? I switched one to an 88, and the other to a 75mm Artillery piece (indirect-fireable, unlike the Infantry Gun). Both do just as well in the new roles as they did at first, because they started with high Arty ratings and I changed them to pieces which use the Arty rating.

[QUOTE][B]Second: When the computer/AI buys its forces, does it get the same number of points to do it with that you have in both your �core� and support? Assuming you have the battle toggled to �Medium� of course.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I believe so, yes.

_____________________________

Newbies!!
Wild Bill's Tanks at Munda Mini-Campaign. The training campaign for comb

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Post #: 8

- 6/24/2003 11:07:47 PM

Warhorse

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Vathailos,

The editing isn't really too hard, and sometimes, you can just send the new scenario to someone, and they can buy the AI forces for you, and add surprises too!! What I do is not buy too much support, sometimes none at all, to help the AI numbers out a little, I just like huge battles, at least if editing, you can have huge maps, and a greater array of enemy equipment than if the AI buys it, especially if you have rarity on...

Yes, you may PM, or e-mail me for specifics when you are comfortable with it, I don't mind at all!!

Warhorse

_____________________________

Mike Amos

Meine Ehre hei�t Treue
www.cslegion.com

(in reply to Vathailos)

Post #: 9

Semi-Historical Core forces for Germany 39 - 6/24/2003 11:43:57 PM

dlazov

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From: Chicago IL
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Vathailos,

I have SP WaW 7.1 campaign going on now as the Germans. I generally only play semi-historical selections and most people that I play against do the same.

IMHO your core force is not historical. A more realistic (in my view) approach is something like this at 3k.

1 x A0 HQ
1 x Med Mtr Bty (6 x 81mm mtrs)
1 x PzG Mech Co
1 x Rifle Co
1 x Armored Car Co
1 x Med Panzer Co
1 x Sniper

This in my view is a mini-kampfgrupen which a typical German Col or Major may have at his disposal. In this type of setup you get onboard arty (both 81's and 50's) you have infantry, ATR's, AC, and AFV's. In my view your A0 should not be roaming around the battlefield (this is only based on PBEM, if I see your A0 I am going to kill him at all costs) and should have the sniper hiding around him somewhere. In general and in my view this gives the best flexibility and some fairness to the AI, plus its pretty historical.

To make this even more historical as a Mot Inf detachment you would have to up the points a bit:

1 x A0 HQ
1 x Med Mtr Bty (6 x 81mm mtrs)
1 x PzG Mech Co
2 x Mot Rifle Co
1 x Armored Car Co
1 x Med Panzer Co
1 x Sniper

This would represent a reinforced German Mot Inf battalion.

You can do the same for U.K., U.S., and Russia. Just need to do a little reading and some research on TO&E's. The most widely available are on U.S. Army and the German Army during WW2.

This is just all my own opinion and based on my research from ASL, SPWW2, SPWaW, TOAW-CW, EF and others.

Regards~
Don

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DGL

An army of rabbits led by a lion, will beat an army of lions, led by a Rabbit. Napoleon

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Post #: 10

- 6/25/2003 12:15:35 AM

rbrunsman

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Vath:
I agree with what the others have said.

I'll will also add that I love the plethora of German HTs available! There is so much variety there that you can get an HT to do whatever duty you need. I like the /9 HT with the short barrelled 75mm gun. It packs HEAT rounds to put a scare into any armor and its HE rounds just tear up infantry and other soft targets. You should get to know them better. You'll learn to love them too.:) The Lynx and other ACs are fun too, but just not as useful as the HTs IMHO.

_____________________________

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Post #: 11

- 6/25/2003 1:12:27 AM

Jim1954

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Vathailos,

Most of the Mega Campaigns use a company sized formation with a few odd support units as the "core force". This is a very manageable sized under taking that allows you to become rather attached to the units involved. If it's too big, to me at least, then you feel like you're commanding General Motors where everyone is like a faceless number (no disrespect to GM, or any of it's employees, btw).

IMHO it's a much more enjoyable experience when you are not swamped with excesses in numbers. There are other very astute gamers who prefer larger forces to command, so it is a matter of choice.

I think the largest core is in Lost Victories,(motorized inf co. with support units) and it's around 55 or so units, including all of the transport units.

Just spouting off.

;)

_____________________________

Jim1954
KMC/T

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Post #: 12

- 6/25/2003 1:49:07 AM

dlazov

Posts: 185
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From: Chicago IL
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Jim wrote:

[QUOTE]so it is a matter of choice[/QUOTE]

Vath, Jim is correct. I prefer battalion size for campaigns and 1-2 coys for PBEM. For me just laying around doing campaigns a battalion is easy to manage and control solo. But in PBEM I like 1-2 coys (1000-2k) for managablitly.

Just my thoughts.

_____________________________

DGL

An army of rabbits led by a lion, will beat an army of lions, led by a Rabbit. Napoleon

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Post #: 13

Gentlemen - 6/25/2003 2:28:20 AM

Vathailos

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Thanks so much for the responses. This constitutes more information than I�d hoped I�d be able to gather.

I swear, when I recently did my �grande� core WWII Campaign force, it did feel as though I�m managing more than I can adequately keep in my frontal lobe. I laughed out loud at the �commanding General Motors� portion Jim. [I]Fear the metallic, robotic knock on your door should you offend�[/I] You�ll disappear only to reemerge hours later as a minivan. ;) Thanks for the elaboration on the Mega-campaign/PBEM difference. I do like the cozier, more familiar core. The level of detail in this game is astounding. What a product!

Warhorse, when I am sufficiently trounced to the point where I�m looking for a retreat from PBEM, I will most assuredly request editing advice to tweak the AI to the point where he�s fearsome. Love a challenge :).

RB, I had NO idea that the short-barreled ones had HEAT! *drools at work* Do they have a carrying capacity? I think the one mounting the 75mm can hold 4 or 5 IIRC. Speaking of �riding shotgun�, I�ve toyed with the Russians, they have a flame T-34 that can carry infantry. Talk about gruesome, an elite flame tank section with Engineers or Guards as �reactive� armor�

Don, good ness! Hell, I�m a commander currently IRL and have enough trouble keeping my own Company�s MTOE and UMR straight. Sounds as though you�re spun up on several historical models. Kudos. I�m going to re-make a German motor/mechanized BN (-) and try it from the beginning one more time.

Again, all, I genuinely appreciate the information. Outstanding knowledge base here. I suspected as much. Just didn�t know how much I had yet to learn. Look forward to �hitting the books.� :D

(in reply to Vathailos)

Post #: 14

- 6/25/2003 2:32:36 AM

Jim1954

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I would recommend that you pick up the new MC when it comes out, and if they just happen to re-release the old ones, I'd get them too.
They are quite an experience.

:cool:

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Post #: 15

- 6/25/2003 2:36:51 AM

Vathailos

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*prepares to ask 10th silly question* :rolleyes:

Sorry so thick here Jim. What's an MC (I mean other than "Master of Ceremonies" or perhaps "motorcycle" ;) )? I DO plan on getting my little download hands on the OOB to be released soon (less than 30 days according to gmanfan *checks watch again*).

Thanks in advance.

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Post #: 16

- 6/25/2003 2:59:58 AM

Jim1954

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Sorry guy, An MC is a mega campaign. It's like a history lesson and a novel all rolled into one. Plays very similar to the long campaigns except they focus on generally about a 6 month period in a specific theater. Very intense , super detailed in depth coverage with maps, drawings, diagrams, pictures and text files. They also have multi-branch capability where the next scenario you fight will depend on what force choices and the level of victory (or loss) that you sustained in the preceeding battle. In Lost Victories there over 250 possible scenarios that you may have to battle from beginning to end.

They are not included in the base free download of SPWaW but must have been purchased separately. They will go into the spot in the main menu that says megacampaigns that doesn't do squat if you click it and you don't have them installed.

Desert Fox is North Africa.. Feb 1941 to about Dec 1941 i think i haven't finished it yet.

Lost Victories is Southern Russia from June- Roughly Dec 1941.

Operation Watch tower is Guadalcanal and the mud Marines in 1942.

The new one is.............

?

?

?

Drum Roll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

?

?

well, you're just gonna have to wait for a while on that one but you won't be disappointed!

:D , it's gonna be :cool:

_____________________________

Jim1954
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Post #: 17

- 6/25/2003 3:58:37 AM

rbrunsman

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Talk about getting attached to your company!

In MC-Lost Victories, I positively cringe every time I put my Mech recon teams, J0 to J7, are at risk. They're all elite, so they can do more, but, oh, the pain when my Sdkfzs get knocked out by an unanticipated ATG or my scout teams bump into a Russian infantry squad that I didn't expect.:mad:

When the rookie support PzIVs that OKW sends me can't get the job done, I just call on my elite StuGs (P0 to P2) to go punch a hole in the Russians (damned low ammo payload though!)

And of course elite Infantry Platoons C, D and E can really tear up those russian infantry units even when they are far outnumbered.

Every unit has a personality. Small is good.:D

_____________________________

Everyone is a potential [PBEM] enemy, every place a potential [PBEM] battlefield. --Zensunni Wisdom

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Post #: 18

- 6/25/2003 7:45:42 AM

fullmetaljacko

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From: Louisiana, USA
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Not on topic, and thanks for the info about historical "core forces" I have a book about the US Army from '39-'45, So I should be able to find out for them.

I was just thinking about the getting attached to your units. I'm playing WB's From Utah to the Rhine, only on the 2nd battle but my Ranger squad with 11 kills is like my baby now, and my "sherms" with 7 and 8 kills are my pets also. Makes you really careful when you "know" the guys. =)

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Post #: 19

- 6/25/2003 10:30:05 PM

Capt Chris

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If you are looking for some good army lists, here is what I use.

They are from a game called Command Decision that I used to play back in my tabletop wargaming days. It has army lists from all of the major nations from 1939 to 1945. They are well organized and broken down into their appropriate command structures (down to platoon level) so you won't have to research it all yourself.

These organizational charts (along with the history nut I used to play with) are what showed me that Tigers aren't the only equipment in the German Army. :D

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- 6/26/2003 5:39:14 AM

bchapman

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Capt. Chris,
Were you going to post the charts? They sound very useful.:)

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- 6/26/2003 8:27:59 AM

Capt Chris

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If I had an electronic copy I would. All I have is the paper ones and I don't have a scanner. :( I have been searching the web but have come up empty so far...

Just an FYI, CD only covers Europe. No Japanese or US Marines.

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Post #: 22

- 6/26/2003 9:02:14 AM

Irinami

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Dude. PM me, I'll see what I can do to hook you up with a manual.

Or you could download the big distribution from Matrix.

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Post #: 23

1939 core - 6/27/2003 9:15:16 PM

robot

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About 2800 for start point core force 1939 germans. This is how i start out. I start with green troops as i am a new commander. The fuerer likes me but not enough to command an elite force.
Four sections recon teams
Two sections 221s
Two sections Light tanks
Two compannys of panzer grenadiers (3 pla. inf. 1 pla engineers)
2 sec. atr (1 attatched to ea pla inf)
8 sig 150s (4 to ea co.)

2 pak 37mm TD (1 Pak to ea co)
8 81mm mortors (4 to ea co)
1 sec 221 attatched to ea co (converted to stugs when available)
4 pzv (2 ea co)
4 sp aaa (2 ea co)
Left and right flank is as follows.
1sec motorcycles
1 sec light tanks
1 pla. of special forces
1 pla of pzIII
HQ command consists of following
Command truck supported by following.
4 sec 221 ( 2 secs conveted to sp td later on)
All or part are ther to be changed to better units as war goes on. All transport is purchased with support points. Some are all of core force is downgraded at start if need be. Such as pzIII to PZ 35s if have to. I limit myself to 2 pla of off board arttillery and 3 if on an attack. Almost forgot in my core is also 2 fos. If on an attack will buy more engineers sometime. Always set AI to hard by the way.

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- 6/28/2003 12:35:13 AM

fullmetaljacko

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I did one someone suggested for a 1939 Core Force of 1 PzG Mot Co. and 1 Light Recon Co. and although tough without true armor those recon vehicles actually ate up the Polish "armored" vehicles. Then next battle I switched 2 of the um forget which recon vehicle to some Pz 38(T)'s and they are pretty snazzy vs infantry.

1939 is a big difference from 1944. I had never killed anyone with the smaller mortars but those 50mm's more than make up for it, if you keep them close.

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- 6/28/2003 10:45:15 AM

Irinami

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by fullmetaljacko
[B]I did one someone suggested for a 1939 Core Force of 1 PzG Mot Co. and 1 Light Recon Co. and although tough without true armor those recon vehicles actually ate up the Polish "armored" vehicles. Then next battle I switched 2 of the um forget which recon vehicle to some Pz 38(T)'s and they are pretty snazzy vs infantry. [/B][/QUOTE]

My suggestion--glad you liked it!! I literally stumbled on the Light Recon Co.; it was just what I wanted in my first core force.

Your SdKfz 231 8-Rad's (and to a lesser extent your 6-Rad) are about an equal match with the Polish armor. They're roughly equally armored, are weaker-gunned than the Polska A/T car, but due to their higher speed they are usually a little harder to hit. Makes it a real challenge.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fullmetaljacko
[B]
1939 is a big difference from 1944. I had never killed anyone with the smaller mortars but those 50mm's more than make up for it, if you keep them close. [/B][/QUOTE]

There are amazing lessons to be learned by working your way from the bottom. ^_^

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Post #: 26

- 6/29/2003 2:21:26 AM

rbrunsman

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Irinami
[B]
There are amazing lessons to be learned by working your way from the bottom. ^_^ [/B][/QUOTE]

Absolutely! Too many newbies just jump right into the big Katz and such and fail to learn all the valuable lessons learned by having to play with the inferior equipment found early in the war.

The Germans sure didn't win in 1939 and 1940 because they had the best equipment. They had the best tactics and best trained men.

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Post #: 27

- 6/29/2003 4:56:30 AM

Irinami

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by rbrunsman
[B]The Germans sure didn't win in 1939 and 1949...[/B][/QUOTE]

Umm? '49? I must be a little fuzzy on my early Cold-War history.

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Post #: 28

Good discussion here - 6/29/2003 7:38:28 AM

KG Erwin

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I've spent quite a bit of time on the various core force combos for the Germans in Sept 1939 and the USMC in August 1942. I use the default point totals given in the long campaigns (3100 for the Germans and 4280 for the USMC). The specifics will change with the soon -to-be-released 7.2 OOBs, but generally speaking, I try to stay within historical parameters. The USMC is pretty straightforward: three "D" rifle companies, a "D" Weapons Company, three platoons of M2A4s, three Engineer sections, three recon squads, three Raider platoons (including a "Carlson" 2nd Raiders), a section of Boys ATRs (one attached to each Raider platoon as was done historically), four GMC 75mm armed halftracks, and jeep sections to transport your HQ and your two 37mm ATGs in the Weapons Company. After selecting this core, which is equivalent to a Battalion Landing Team, I pick my assets for the mission (almost always artillery in 1942), and then save it. This is where I really immerse myself in the upcoming campaign: I open up the saved mission using the Chlanda Editor, and then change unit names and commanders to match real-life Marine designations. Now, BLT 17 HQ or 1st Marines HQ or whatever is my A0, with the Companies being designated Able, Baker, Charlie and Dog (weapons) per WWII phonetic alphabet usage, and the platoons/squads are 1A, 2A, 3A or 1B, 2B, 3B and so on. I then insert the names of real commanders from the 1st Marine Div at Guadalcanal (Cates, Hunt, Webb, et al.), and then save this over the previous file. Admittedly, this is a lot of preparation, but if you're going to fight two dozen or more battles with a large core force, it helps if you can identify with the names and designations of the men you're commanding. I picked this up from playing Close Combat, and I'll admit I do get involved in the careers of certain subordinates as they gain experience and choose which are the ones most deserving to get equipment upgrades first. Of course, it's also more painful when a valued unit gets destroyed, and I have to make sure a greenhorn gets blooded not too "bloodied" too quickly. All of these quirks of mine just illustrate that administration of your core between battles is as important as leading them through the carnage to come.

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Post #: 29

- 6/29/2003 8:22:02 AM

fullmetaljacko

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Wow, that's odd yet very cool. If i had the time to do that i might, also the knowledge heh. Recently I've just named a squad leader after me and taken special care of that squad or tank. ;)

Right now i'm just playing as Germans so I mean I wish i had the patience to rename everything like that, would be sweet. Take a company from Das Reich or something, maybe even just a regular infantry but **** that'd take way to much typing. :)

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Post #: 30

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