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Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/13/2019 11:53:02 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		Not sure if this is the correct section but I fear it goes unnoticed if placed somewhere else.
Originally I had intended to play through the complete series before giving feedback but I now saw that the range of the German 15,0cm sFH 18 is terribly wrong what forces the Germans to always go in contact with the enemy to allow those heavy pieces to support the infantry. And so I decided to give feedback now in the hope that corrections are mad quickly because this series is a fine entry point into TOAWIV and deserves high attention.


For all the scenario of the series:
- Check German air units, some seem to have missions not appropriate for them at the start of the scenario, bombers doing air superiority for example, and some are even set to Entrenched. This has nothing to do with the Air Staff assistant(that I never use) but I see this also with other scenarios, maybe this is an effect of converting TOAWIII scenario to TOAWIV.

- The Sollstärke of the German Air Units has to be checked to, currently some numbers don't make sense like KG2 with 132 although it only had 2 Gruppen in the East, or StG2 which also had only 2 Gruppen in the East but has a TOE of 120.
I would recommend to split them into Gruppen so Geschwader with different plane types in their Gruppen and different deployments can be depicted.

- The German 75mm L/36 le.FK 16na range is to short, instead of 7km it should be 12,3km. And instead a shell weight of 7kg it should have 5,83kg.

- The German 75mm L/26 leFK 18 shell weight should be instead 7kg rather 5,83kg.

- The German 10,5cm Gun sK 18 range is to short, instead of 12km it should be 21km.

- The German 15.0cm Howitzer sFH 18 range is to short, instead of 6km it should be 13kmAnd instead a shell weight of 40kg it should have 43,52kg.

- The German 15cm Gun K 18 range is to short, instead of 16km it should be 24,5km. And instead a shell weight of 40kg it should have 43kg.

- The German 21cm L/31 Morser 18 range is to short, instead of 9km it should be 14,5km. And instead a shell weight of 110kg it should have 113kg.

- The German 30,5cm L/12 H 638(t) range is to short, instead of 10km it should be 12,3km. And instead a shell weight of 380kg it should have 384kg.
The designation should be changed to (j), according to wikipedia:
"In 1939, Germany seized all 17 pieces from Czechoslovakia and repaired the howitzer from the Arsenal Museum, designating them 30.5 cm Mörser (t). In 1941, they obtained five more weapons after the defeat of Yugoslavia and placed them into service as the 30.5 cm Mörser 638(j)."

- The German 35.5cm L22.6 Haubitze M3 is a bit unclear as I only find a 35.5 cm Haubitze M1 with a caliber of L/28,9, but the shell weight in the game fits to the M1 so I suppose it's that one. Range here only minor off and should be 21km.

- The German 8cm Mortar GrW 34 range is to long, instead of 5km it should be 2,5km. And instead a shell weight of 9kg it should have 3,5 kg.

- The German 15cm Nebelwerfer MRL range is only slightly off, instead of 6km it should be 6,9km.

- The German 28cm Nebelwerfer MRL range is only slightly off, instead of 3km it should be 2km.


Scenario I
- Change plane type in StG 77, it never used Ju 88 but only Ju 87.
http://www.ww2.dk/air/attack/stg77.htm
- Change the German corps designations:
XLVII to XXXXVII
XLVI to XXXXVI
XLIII to XXXXIII
XLII to XXXXII
Germany never used an XL designation but only XXXX.
Check here for the designations used:
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Korps/Korps.htm
http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/KorpsPz/PzKprps.htm


Scenario II
- Change plane type in StG 77, it never used Ju 88 but only Ju 87.
http://www.ww2.dk/air/attack/stg77.htm
- Correct the naming of ZG 26, it uses Me110, what is correct, but has Bf109 in its name.


Scenario III
- Change plane type in ZG 26, likely an error carried over from the previous scenario in which the unit was wrongly named with Bf109 it now also uses Me109, but ZG26 used Me110 in the timeframe covered here. Check:
http://www.ww2.dk/air/zerstorer/zg26.htm
- In general all the German bomber units have to be checked if these very few Me110 should really be in them. I know that some Stuka Geschwader had 110 in their Geschwader Staff but that it was so too with bomber units seems strange.

< Message edited by BigDuke66 -- 3/14/2019 11:12:35 PM >

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RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/14/2019 3:05:46 AM   
Edorf

 

Posts: 121
Joined: 5/14/2013
Status: offline 		Since you`ve seen issues like this in other official scenarios too I wonder how some of these were converted in the first place?
If the convertion process have just been mechanical then no wonder there are errors. I know there`s a risk of errors when playing downloaded scenarios but I hope that the scenarios shipped will have some support. Hopefully these "bugs" can be fixed with a patch?

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 2
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/14/2019 3:33:49 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

Not sure if this is the correct section but I fear it goes unnoticed if placed somewhere else.
Originally I had intended to play through the complete series before giving feedback but I now saw that the range of the German 15,0cm sFH 18 is terribly wrong what forces the Germans to always go in contact with the enemy to allow those heavy pieces to support the infantry. And so I decided to give feedback now in the hope that corrections are made quickly because this series is a fine entry point into TOAWIV and deserves high attention.

BigDuke, thanks for your feedback.
I will review your references and will make corrections to the air units.

The corps nomenclature will be an easy fix. I think I was concerned with fitting the complete corps designation within the allotted space.

I am not certain how to best add updated scenarios to the current game files. It took several tries to get the present versions into the current version of TOAW IV. I have sent updated versions of Larry Fulkerson's file, but the tend not to be noticed. Ideas?

Thanks again!
RAK

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 3
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/14/2019 3:38:05 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

I am not certain how to best add updated scenarios to the current game files. It took several tries to get the present versions into the current version of TOAW IV. I have sent updated versions of Larry Fulkerson's file, but the tend not to be noticed. Ideas?

Thanks again!
RAK

Let me be of service somehow. I'd like to help. If you make updates to a scenario just post it in it's own thread with a title a little bit different from the original and I'll move it's name into the list of all the scenarios and others can start downloading that bad boy. Are you saying that there's been an update that I missed publishing? Which one and I'll fix it.

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RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/14/2019 3:54:23 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
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From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		Thanks, Larry. Good idea.

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Post #: 5
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/14/2019 7:21:24 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		Couple of comments on this.

First, this thread is an impressive display of cooperation by all; very nice to see.

On German artillery. I have some information that may assist as to which guns were used by the corps artillery units, if the battalions subordinated to particular field armies can be identified. On edit: Niehorster's page identifies the units and weapons they had on 22 June 1941.

As a general offer of assistance, I also have copies of the official Soviet wartime OOB, in case anyone wants to check a formation's units. The OOB is oriented on the first day of each month, so it may only be so-so accurate for dates not the first day of the month.

RAK: Looking at the map, I was impressed that you took care to note the regions of Poland occupied by the Germans and the USSR. A minor suggestion to make the title of the Soviet occupied portion match the format of the German occupied region: "WESTERN BELORUSSIA" "Soviet Occupied Poland". Also, I'm not sure what the red border is meant to signify -- it looks like national frontiers, but that part of Soviet occupied Poland included Brest -- following is a good map of the occupied area.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Belorussian_SSR_in_1940_after_annexation_of_eastern_Poland.jpg

It looks a fun scenario to play. I like the divisional scale of the scenario and really enjoy tidbits like "General Government"; good period color always enhances a scenario.

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 3/14/2019 11:50:33 AM >

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Post #: 6
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/14/2019 6:25:02 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: r6kunz
I am not certain how to best add updated scenarios to the current game files. It took several tries to get the present versions into the current version of TOAW IV. I have sent updated versions of Larry Fulkerson's file, but the tend not to be noticed. Ideas?

Hosting the complete series here is likely not possible in a practical way as afaik there is a limit for the size of files attached per post. You would likely need several post to host the complete file set for each scenario and this board with it's silly attitude of renaming attachments would not be helpful for the downloaders.
I suggest to simply post a thread with the name of the series and add a link to an external file hoster in it. I suggest www.zippyshare.com and you should have no problems, that hoster neither forces you or the downloader to login or solve captchas or any other silly tricks to get files up-/downloaded. Only limit here would be that files get deleted after 30 days of no activity.

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RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/14/2019 6:27:40 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244
As a general offer of assistance, I also have copies of the official Soviet wartime OOB, in case anyone wants to check a formation's units. The OOB is oriented on the first day of each month, so it may only be so-so accurate for dates not the first day of the month.


I guess these Soviet wartime OOBs will surely find interest beyond this scenario series.
Could you upload them somewhere?

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RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/14/2019 7:42:25 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathar1244
As a general offer of assistance, I also have copies of the official Soviet wartime OOB, in case anyone wants to check a formation's units. The OOB is oriented on the first day of each month, so it may only be so-so accurate for dates not the first day of the month.


I guess these Soviet wartime OOBs will surely find interest beyond this scenario series.
Could you upload them somewhere?


Looks like they can be had at this URL: http://www.teatrskazka.com/Raznoe/BoevojSostavSA/BoevojSostavSA.html

They are in Russian, as are the documents I have. Takes a bit of work, but after a while, one can work with them without too much issue.

Cheers

(in reply to BigDuke66)
Post #: 9
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/14/2019 11:11:30 PM   
BigDuke66


Posts: 2013
Joined: 2/1/2001
From: Terra
Status: offline 		I looked a bit more into the German artillery and we have some more pieces that have a wrong range and/or shell weight.
As I don't have a clue if the game internally somehow takes partial ranges from a hex into account for combat resolution and how much the shell weight matters(especially for penetration calculation) I have also added those pieces that differ only slightly.
I'll add this info also to my initial post:
- The German 75mm L/36 le.FK 16na range is to short, instead of 7km it should be 12,3km. And instead a shell weight of 7kg it should have 5,83kg.

- The German 75mm L/26 leFK 18 shell weight should be instead 7kg rather 5,83kg.

- The German 10,5cm Gun sK 18 range is to short, instead of 12km it should be 21km.

- The German 15.0cm Howitzer sFH 18 range is to short, instead of 6km it should be 13kmAnd instead a shell weight of 40kg it should have 43,52kg.

- The German 15cm Gun K 18 range is to short, instead of 16km it should be 24,5km. And instead a shell weight of 40kg it should have 43kg.

- The German 21cm L/31 Morser 18 range is to short, instead of 9km it should be 14,5km. And instead a shell weight of 110kg it should have 113kg.

- The German 30,5cm L/12 H 638(t) range is to short, instead of 10km it should be 12,3km. And instead a shell weight of 380kg it should have 384kg.
The designation should be changed to (j), according to wikipedia:
"In 1939, Germany seized all 17 pieces from Czechoslovakia and repaired the howitzer from the Arsenal Museum, designating them 30.5 cm Mörser (t). In 1941, they obtained five more weapons after the defeat of Yugoslavia and placed them into service as the 30.5 cm Mörser 638(j)."

- The German 35.5cm L22.6 Haubitze M3 is a bit unclear as I only find a 35.5 cm Haubitze M1 with a caliber of L/28,9, but the shell weight in the game fits to the M1 so I suppose it's that one. Range here only minor off and should be 21km.

- The German 8cm Mortar GrW 34 range is to long, instead of 5km it should be 2,5km. And instead a shell weight of 9kg it should have 3,5 kg.

- The German 15cm Nebelwerfer MRL range is only slightly off, instead of 6km it should be 6,9km.

- The German 28cm Nebelwerfer MRL range is only slightly off, instead of 3km it should be 2km.


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RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/19/2019 2:29:21 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline 		BigDuke, cathar, larry (who has contributed his playtest experience as well), Steve Sill, Oberst_Klink, et al,

Thank you all for your suggestions and comments to the Road to Moscow series ( and by extension, Ardennes 1944 and Operation Overlord 1944). All are works-in-progress (and probably always will be).
I have reviewed these recommendations and I plan to incorporate them as time permits. So far, no show-stoppers. (A previous version omitted the trucks from a Pz Grenadier Div, and the previous "What if" left out one of the Grenadier Regiments from the 2.Pz Div)

BigDuke Most of the artillery errors were mistranscriptions from the spreadsheets so kindly provided me by the FITE team. I take full responsibility for any errors. (fortunately, no big bloopers that I see).

Air units. Whew! I must admit I am not an expert here and I will review the suggestions. Realize this is a fluid series, and air units are probably being transferred and reorganized over the course of the eight scenarios.

cather, re the map. As listed in the scenario references, I relied heavily on the 1:250,000 topo maps, compiled by the US Army Corps of Engineers from 1:100,000 Red Army maps, 1940-1944. Deciding on the type of TOAW forest was a major challenge. Thanks for the link to the reference to the Polish border.

Re unit locations. I relied extensively on privately published volumes by David M. Glantz. These are spiral bound, 11x16" photocopies of German operational maps at the division level, typically on a weekly basis, each volume about covers about 2-3 months, 22 June 1941-20 April 1942. Signed, and about $100 each. Interspersed are Soviet operational maps.

I may not start working on updates until I feel Bob Cross is closer to issuing the next TOAW IV update. I will, however, continue to monitor this thread.

Meanwhile, most of my TOAW time is presently devoted to vetting (mostly playing) Vietnam Combat Operations by Stéphane MOUTIN LUYAT, who has kindly consented to be included in the next update, as well as playing Operation Neva and D21.

RAK



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RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/19/2019 2:41:50 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
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From: Tucson, AZ
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quote:

I may not start working on updates until I feel Bob Cross is closer to issuing the next TOAW IV update.

Do you know something that the rest of us don't know?

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RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/19/2019 2:57:49 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		If you look around you will see ranges for artillery vary widely. About the only thing you can do is find several sources and go with what the majority of the sources say. Even more confusing are shell weights and how they can also vary, especially when considering the very large artillery pieces. You would think that could be pinned down to one number but no, can't have consistency.

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A: A stick.

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Post #: 13
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/19/2019 4:04:47 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

I may not start working on updates until I feel Bob Cross is closer to issuing the next TOAW IV update.

Do you know something that the rest of us don't know?

No, Larry, no direct pipeline. Or even indirect pipeline.

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Post #: 14
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/20/2019 5:56:57 AM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		RAK, I tried the first couple of turns of the initial Road to Moscow scenario last night as Soviets vs German computer.

Well done. Matched what I have read of the initial confusion and overall haplessness of the Soviet forces. Älmer was all over the map!

Cheers

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Post #: 15
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/22/2019 8:29:49 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline 		You guys might get a kick out this image. This is the waterway shown on the first scenario's map as the "Krolevski Canal". Looks challenging to cross. Apparently, the Polish inland navy operated on this canal during the Polish-Soviet War and during the period between the World Wars.



Cheers

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Post #: 16
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 3/23/2019 7:38:43 AM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

...Apparently, the Polish inland navy operated on this canal during the Polish-Soviet War...

And they used both rowboats.

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RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 7/18/2019 10:10:25 PM   
JTFox001

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 10/3/2017
Status: offline 		Looking to play "Road To Moscow I" and was looking at the OOB for the Germans.

Noticed they have two 167.Inf Div units. One as a single Formation and the other as part of XLVII.Mot Korps.

I'm guessing one of these is a mistake and was wondering the best way to correct it.

Cheers JTF

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Post #: 18
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 7/18/2019 10:16:02 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JTFox001

Looking to play "Road To Moscow I" and was looking at the OOB for the Germans.

Noticed they have two 167.Inf Div units. One as a single Formation and the other as part of XLVII.Mot Korps.

I'm guessing one of these is a mistake and was wondering the best way to correct it.

Cheers JTF

If I were in that situation I think I would mod the scenario to remove one of them. Whichever is easier to get rid of.

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Post #: 19
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 7/19/2019 1:23:52 AM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		If both are in play at the same time, I would ask the scenario designer about it.

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Post #: 20
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 7/19/2019 2:44:19 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: JTFox001

Looking to play "Road To Moscow I" and was looking at the OOB for the Germans.

Noticed they have two 167.Inf Div units. One as a single Formation and the other as part of XLVII.Mot Korps.

I'm guessing one of these is a mistake and was wondering the best way to correct it.

Cheers JTF

If I were in that situation I think I would mod the scenario to remove one of them. Whichever is easier to get rid of.


AGC, 2nd Panzer Army, XXXXVII Motorized Corps.

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 21
RE: Road to Moscow series - Feedback - 7/21/2019 4:12:09 AM   
r6kunz


Posts: 1103
Joined: 7/4/2002
From: near Philadelphia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: JTFox001

Looking to play "Road To Moscow I" and was looking at the OOB for the Germans.

Noticed they have two 167.Inf Div units. One as a single Formation and the other as part of XLVII.Mot Korps.

I'm guessing one of these is a mistake and was wondering the best way to correct it.

Cheers JTF

If I were in that situation I think I would mod the scenario to remove one of them. Whichever is easier to get rid of.


AGC, 2nd Panzer Army, XXXXVII Motorized Corps.

Good pickup. Thanks. Let me research and I will delete the superfluous 167.Inf Div

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