RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's biggest tank battle

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 9:31:29 AM

TulliusDetritus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch
Lend Lease made it possible to stop the Germans at Kursk. The men + material they had at Kursk were a direct result of Lend Lease.

And the likes of Guatemala and Peru made D-Day possible too eh

Now do count the convoys that brought the inputs the US industry or agriculture needed to elaborate the finished products: manufactures, clothes, food etc.

You wanna play? We'll play!

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Post #: 91

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 10:05:32 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch
Lend Lease made it possible to stop the Germans at Kursk. The men + material they had at Kursk were a direct result of Lend Lease.

And the likes of Guatemala and Peru made D-Day possible too eh

Now do count the convoys that brought the inputs the US industry or agriculture needed to elaborate the finished products: manufactures, clothes, food etc.

You wanna play? We'll play!

warspite1

Why are you bringing in Guatemala and Peru? Do you not see the difference between the USSR (and the CW) and the USA here? I mean really?

What the US imported from other countries on normal commercial terms as part of its import/export requirements is different to lend/lease and the provision of food and war material to Allies to keep them from losing to Nazi Germany.

Are you suggesting that Guatemala and Peru provided lend-lease type terms to allow the US to be able to afford to pay for the imports from those countries? No, of course not, so I don't know why you keep referencing them.

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Post #: 92

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 10:52:41 AM

TulliusDetritus

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"Commercial"

Churchill was certainly foaming at the mouth when the US ordered them to send a destroyer filled with *gold* to South Africa

An hilarious part of his memoirs...

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Post #: 93

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 10:57:36 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

"Commercial"

Churchill was certainly foaming at the mouth when the US ordered them to send a destroyer filled with *gold* to South Africa

An hilarious part of his memoirs...

warspite1

So rather than answer the point raised you ignore it and bring up some other totally irrelevant 'point' about.... well I've no idea if its relevant because its just cryptic gibberish.

Perhaps before moving onto South African bound gold laden destroyers, you could take the trouble to answer the point about why you brought up Guatemala and Peru in the context of lend-lease?

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Post #: 94

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 11:03:04 AM

RangerJoe

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Not just the war loot but the German High command did not even settle for one type of truck to be made by the German industry unlike the US where many companies made the 2 and a 1/2 ton truck to the same specifications.

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Post #: 95

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 11:17:03 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Not just the war loot but the German High command did not even settle for one type of truck to be made by the German industry unlike the US where many companies made the 2 and a 1/2 ton truck to the same specifications.

warspite1

This was a problem with German industry generally. So much production was wasted on experimental prototypes and different production types instead of churning out volume.

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Post #: 96

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 11:22:02 AM

TulliusDetritus

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It's the well known third reich utter chaos.

Meanwhile, the US and the USSR had understood a standard product was easier to produce en masse: Liberty ships, T-34s...

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Post #: 97

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 12:54:59 PM

TulliusDetritus

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You make me laugh with your coldwaresque ridiculous western propaganda.

For all I care, Soviet "the help was only the 4% of the total, almost irrelevant" or Western "we saved their a**es" are a crock of sh*t. I have no time for this and other sophistries.

I cited an example that should make you think. The truck theory does NOT describe what happened in '41. And the theories that cannot describe the real world tend to be weak... But carry on with your cold war narratives

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 7/21/2019 12:56:17 PM >

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 2:05:50 PM

RangerJoe

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I guess that the Western Allies should have left the Soviets on their own. Secure the Med and then concentrate on Japan. Think of how the Germans would have liked that.

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Post #: 99

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 2:33:22 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

You make me laugh with your coldwaresque ridiculous western propaganda.

For all I care, Soviet "the help was only the 4% of the total, almost irrelevant" or Western "we saved their a**es" are a crock of sh*t. I have no time for this and other sophistries.

I cited an example that should make you think. The truck theory does NOT describe what happened in '41. And the theories that cannot describe the real world tend to be weak... But carry on with your cold war narratives

warspite1

Your latest response is to yourself but you refer to 'your' and so as we've been exchanging posts and no one else has directly been answering your posts this morning (Ranger Joe's post 95 was not in anyway referring to the Soviets), your post is clearly in response to my last response to you. Very annoying debating style (and I know exactly why you've done it) but par for the course I'm afraid.

Firstly you state "You make me laugh with your coldwaresque ridiculous western propaganda".

As usual, if you are going to comment critically upon someone's posts please have the good grace, the common courtesy, to actually read what they've said. Two comments made by me as recently as post 81 - in addition to what I've said in the past in support of the sacrifice of the Soviet people:

So those that limit Allied involvement in the Soviet victory are as misguided as those who downplay the Soviet sacrifice. It's all political nonsense. It's just a shame it's so difficult to get a balanced view.

As much as some may not want to admit it (for whatever political or other purpose), the US, the Commonwealth and the Soviets needed each other.

Two posts later I said

Well I for one agree wholeheartedly. To suggest that that without the invasion of Sicily (and the withdrawal of German forces in the east) the Germans would have broken through during Citadel is, from what I've read, fanciful.

So you think what I've written there is simply spouting Cold War bias????

You brought in Guatemala and Peru - and the vacuousness of that comment was called out. You knew that to be the case so simply didn't respond - but posted some nonsense about gold-laden destroyers to try and hide your embarrassment and deflect from your mistake.

That you simply refuse to believe the Western Allied help was crucial simply confirms your status as a poster child for those incapable of wanting to understand what happened in WWII. Stalin himself said they couldn't have won without Allied aid - but of course you will simply say Kruschev made that up. Well the testimony of Kruschev is a lot more believable than your distorted version of events.

So I'm still waiting, no more deflecting.... Explain the Guatemala/Peru/USA situation and how it is the same as USSR/USA.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 7/21/2019 2:40:12 PM >

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 2:55:05 PM

Zorch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

You make me laugh with your coldwaresque ridiculous western propaganda.

For all I care, Soviet "the help was only the 4% of the total, almost irrelevant" or Western "we saved their a**es" are a crock of sh*t. I have no time for this and other sophistries.

I cited an example that should make you think. The truck theory does NOT describe what happened in '41. And the theories that cannot describe the real world tend to be weak... But carry on with your cold war narratives

warspite1

Your latest response is to yourself but you refer to 'your' and so as we've been exchanging posts and no one else has directly been answering your posts this morning (Ranger Joe's post 95 was not in anyway referring to the Soviets), your post is clearly in response to my last response to you. Very annoying debating style (and I know exactly why you've done it) but par for the course I'm afraid.

Firstly you state "You make me laugh with your coldwaresque ridiculous western propaganda".

As usual, if you are going to comment critically upon someone's posts please have the good grace, the common courtesy, to actually read what they've said. Two comments made by me as recently as post 81 - in addition to what I've said in the past in support of the sacrifice of the Soviet people:

So those that limit Allied involvement in the Soviet victory are as misguided as those who downplay the Soviet sacrifice. It's all political nonsense. It's just a shame it's so difficult to get a balanced view.

As much as some may not want to admit it (for whatever political or other purpose), the US, the Commonwealth and the Soviets needed each other.

Two posts later I said

Well I for one agree wholeheartedly. To suggest that that without the invasion of Sicily (and the withdrawal of German forces in the east) the Germans would have broken through during Citadel is, from what I've read, fanciful.

So you think what I've written there is simply spouting Cold War bias????

You brought in Guatemala and Peru - and the vacuousness of that comment was called out. You knew that to be the case so simply didn't respond - but posted some nonsense about gold-laden destroyers to try and hide your embarrassment and deflect from your mistake.

That you simply refuse to believe the Western Allied help was crucial simply confirms your status as a poster child for those incapable of wanting to understand what happened in WWII. Stalin himself said they couldn't have won without Allied aid - but of course you will simply say Kruschev made that up. Well the testimony of Kruschev is a lot more believable than your distorted version of events.

So I'm still waiting, no more deflecting.... Explain the Guatemala/Peru/USA situation and how it is the same as USSR/USA.

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Post #: 101

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 4:30:40 PM

TulliusDetritus

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"On their own", they already did the hardest part: with the big prize, the annihilation of a whole German Army

A trascendental event that the nazis inmediately understood.

That was the supreme effort. And they were on their own. This was true in 1943, in 2019 and in the tenth millenium. Future revisionist historians will need to work harder. I don't think Hollywood will be around to sell its peculiar history.

People have to be utterly blind if they think they would not have made it to Berlin after the 6 armee disaster.

Keep dreaming.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 7/21/2019 4:36:19 PM >

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Post #: 102

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 4:49:51 PM

Zorch

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

"On their own", they already did the hardest part: with the big prize, the annihilation of a whole German Army

A trascendental event that the nazis inmediately understood.

That was the supreme effort. And they were on their own. This was true in 1943, in 2019 and in the tenth millenium. Future revisionist historians will need to work harder. I don't think Hollywood will be around to sell its peculiar history.

People have to be utterly blind if they think they would not have made it to Berlin after the 6 armee disaster.

Keep dreaming.

If you don't want to continue this discussion, you should say so, instead of making non-sequitur replies.

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Post #: 103

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 5:10:07 PM

TulliusDetritus

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What historian affirms the aid saved them?

A respected professional like Glantz certainly not

And yet, lots of bold people affirm it.

So pay attention.

And more to the point: I never read before Kursk was only possible because of this aid. A wild statement from your part.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 7/21/2019 5:12:58 PM >

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Post #: 104

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 5:26:31 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

"On their own", they already did the hardest part: with the big prize, the annihilation of a whole German Army

How did the Soviets build their industry and industrial technology from 1920s to 1940? How did the Soviets improve the efficiency of the railroads and railroad technology from 1920s to 1940? Where did the Soviets get their military technology from? You seem to have studied all of this. Surely you didn't get it all from the nationalistic drivel seen on the internet today. You have a brain of your own right?

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 6:19:24 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

You have a brain of your own, right?
comma added for clarity . . .

Are you sure of that? Some people just spout what other people tell them without thinking of what they are stating.

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Post #: 106

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 6:26:23 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Indeed, the efficient Middle West farmers were not possible without the mighty Neolithic farmers.

So it's them + Guatemala and Peru

Or Honduras and Chili, to make sure certain personage is happy eh.

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Post #: 107

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 6:46:12 PM

RangerJoe

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quote:

Or Honduras and Chili, to make sure certain personage is happy eh.

Mexican soup/stew with peppers, many times with meat, cheese, beans, tomatoes, onions, other vegetables, and sometimes noodles?

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Post #: 108

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 7:43:21 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Indeed, the efficient Middle West farmers were not possible without the mighty Neolithic farmers.

So it's them + Guatemala and Peru

Or Honduras and Chili, to make sure certain personage is happy eh.

Ah yes. Spoken like a true intellectual.

BTW, chili is one of my favorite winter foods.

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 8:21:11 PM

TulliusDetritus

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Well, you mentioned (I don't know why exactly) the history of capitalism. I can't see why I'm not allowed to mention the greatest revolution of all.

It's actually very simple. To prove your point you just need a) prove the trucks were vital, for both the Blitzkrieg and Soviet Deep Battle things; and b) prove the USSR was uncapable of producing them.

Lemme help you. a) is correct and b) is false.

Have a good day

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 8:39:25 PM

Lobster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

I can't see why I'm not allowed to mention the greatest revolution of all.

Thank you for mentioning the Industrial Revolution.

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 8:47:45 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Indeed, the efficient Middle West farmers were not possible without the mighty Neolithic farmers.

So it's them + Guatemala and Peru

Or Honduras and Chili, to make sure certain personage is happy eh.

warspite1

Adding a

to every post says much, adding Guatemala and Peru says the rest; totally and utterly pointless as usual.

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 9:35:13 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Adding a to every post says much, adding Guatemala and Peru says the rest; totally and utterly pointless as usual.

Guatemala and Peru too.

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 10:03:58 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

"On their own", they already did the hardest part: with the big prize, the annihilation of a whole German Army

Where did the Soviets get their military technology from?

warspite1

Guatemala and Peru

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Post #: 114

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 10:10:16 PM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

It's actually very simple. To prove your point you just need a) prove the trucks were vital, for both the Blitzkrieg and Soviet Deep Battle things; and b) prove the USSR was uncapable of producing them.

Lemme help you. a) is correct and b) is false.

warspite1

It�s actually very simple. To prove your point you just need a) prove that the Soviets could have won without Allied aid and b) if you can, then prove the Soviets would have been in Berlin by April 1945 without it

Lemme help you. a) is false and b) is also false

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/21/2019 11:16:26 PM

RangerJoe

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Actually, the Industrial Revolution may not have been possible without the Agricultural Revolution freeing up many workers while feeding even more people.

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Post #: 116

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 1:55:49 AM

Lobster

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I actually told a lie. The French Revolution is arguably the greatest.

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RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 2:18:06 AM

RangerJoe

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True, the French Revolution led to Napoleon without whom we may not have had canned food so no Spam!

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Post #: 118

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 7:15:22 AM

warspite1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

True, the French Revolution led to Napoleon without whom we may not have had canned food so no Spam!

warspite1

Ah Napoleon. I recently watched an interesting debate about whether Napoleon should be considered 'great'. I hope this is of some interest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxQ4TcTcPbI

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Post #: 119

RE: Kursk WW2: Why Russia is still fighting world's big... - 7/22/2019 1:24:59 PM

Capitaine

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I didn't watch your video, but I did see a rating of military leaders throughout all of history and Napoleon was in first place by quite a wide margin. No contest, really, and I would agree.

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Post #: 120