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"Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists, Slavers and Nazis?"

 
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"Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists, Sl... - 8/2/2019 12:40:59 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline 		An interesting article that recently appeared on The New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/01/style/board-games-cancel-culture.html?fbclid=IwAR3WG8ITMjMQBVXmfmuThdLlkAl6qu6gahxm5XFlurPvdLVSHSdJWTwuWdU

It is worth noting how the "Scramble for Africa" is basically the theme of the second expansion for Paradox's "Victoria 2" (titled "Heart of Darkness") - and how at the time no one objected.

Personally, I just hope that we are not entering in a #metoo (*) movement towards boardgames and wargames - both tabletop and digital. It would be retrograde, damaging and, IMHO, futile.

Please, let's keep the discussion civil and apolitical, as mandated by the forum rules.

(*) Just to be clear, I support the #metoo movement for women's rights.



_____________________________

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"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

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Post #: 1
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 12:44:34 PM   
balto

 

Posts: 1123
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Can someone delete the above post. You let one of these BS posts through, you open the door for more of the same. Please leave any form of politics out of this forum. This is the last safe haven for us old-school wargamers.

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 2
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 12:57:37 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

Can someone delete the above post. You let one of these BS posts through, you open the door for more of the same. Please leave any form of politics out of this forum. This is the last safe haven for us old-school wargamers.


It's not the post that is bad. It's the people who go ballistic and refuse to discuss in a civilized manner. That is what would make this topic go sour. Because it is an interesting topic. Much like is killing people in FPS a bad thing? In many, many war games people play the part of a side whose moral foundation is very bad. Any WW2 game has one side that is despicable. Any ancient game has sides, virtually all of the sides, who use slavery. If you were to eliminate any war game that portrayed a side that held slavery as acceptable then there would be very few games.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 8/2/2019 1:04:10 PM >

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Post #: 3
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 1:25:41 PM   
MrsWargamer


Posts: 1655
Joined: 6/18/2014
Status: offline 		While I don't understand the facination with picking avatars of known historical scum, I also don't like revisionism in history. I understand the objection in certain countries for certain symbols and flags. I said I understand. I don't necessarily agree.

But as far as the hysterical objection to my wargames (whatever medium they employ) is concerned, engaging in a simulation is no different than watching a movie where both sides are portrayed or reading a book where both sides are portrayed.

I didn't read the article. I don't NEED to read the article. We all know there are hysterical persons in society out there, and I don't expect them to go away any time soon.

We are only in danger of repeating the horrors of the past, when we adequately forget the past.
Sadly, this has already been accomplished effectively speaking.
As horrifying as the 40s was, it didn't prevent us from doing it again, and again, and again throughout the 50s and the 60s and the 70s in places around the globe, and in the 90s and in this century in places around the globe.

We are indeed a vicious species in way to many instances.

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Post #: 4
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 1:32:32 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: balto

Can someone delete the above post. You let one of these BS posts through, you open the door for more of the same. Please leave any form of politics out of this forum. This is the last safe haven for us old-school wargamers.


The point is that the brohuhaha described in the article actually caused the cancellation of a game. We are not talking about hypotheticals, hot air, politics or flame wars, but about something that already had practical consequences.

As I pointed out, this is not a "political" post. Quite the contrary: I don't want for politics to dictate my entertainment choices. When, and if needed, only the law.

< Message edited by RFalvo69 -- 8/2/2019 1:34:09 PM >

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to MrsWargamer)
Post #: 5
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 2:07:57 PM   
Blond_Knight


Posts: 1031
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Status: offline 		Next they'll be publicly shaming people for playing Axis in 'Flames of War' or 'Bolt Action'.

Is nothing safe from do-gooders?

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Post #: 6
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 2:08:51 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		The problem is that I see it is when people try to censor history, they are setting up the repetition of said history.

quote:

“Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it.”

― George Santayana, The Life of Reason: Five Volumes in One


When someone thinks that certain books and such should be banned because of the content, then they think that they are better than others.

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Post #: 7
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 2:18:56 PM   
Capitaine

 

Posts: 1043
Joined: 1/15/2002
Status: offline 		It just doesn't matter. And I wouldn't take any advice or information from the NYT as being worthy. Of anything.

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Post #: 8
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 3:28:52 PM   
rico21


Posts: 2990
Joined: 3/11/2016
Status: offline 		The question is badly asked!
The good question would have been:
"" Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Whites, Whites and Whites? "

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 9
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 3:47:24 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

The question is badly asked!
The good question would have been:
"" Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Whites, Whites and Whites? "


You can play as the Zulus. https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/218685/last-stand-isandlwana-22-january-1879

You can play as the Japanese. You can play as the Chinese (a very rich history of wars). There are many wars where both sides are not European or European ancestry. The Chinese had some of the bloodiest wars in history. War is the worst plague to visit mankind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_by_death_toll

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

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A: A stick.

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Post #: 10
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 3:57:18 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Not to mention the Civilization series.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 11
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 4:15:15 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

An interesting article that recently appeared on The New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/01/style/board-games-cancel-culture.html?fbclid=IwAR3WG8ITMjMQBVXmfmuThdLlkAl6qu6gahxm5XFlurPvdLVSHSdJWTwuWdU

It is worth noting how the "Scramble for Africa" is basically the theme of the second expansion for Paradox's "Victoria 2" (titled "Heart of Darkness") - and how at the time no one objected.

Personally, I just hope that we are not entering in a #metoo (*) movement towards boardgames and wargames - both tabletop and digital. It would be retrograde, damaging and, IMHO, futile.

Please, let's keep the discussion civil and apolitical, as mandated by the forum rules.

(*) Just to be clear, I support the #metoo movement for women's rights.




RFalvo69, the way you phrased your question is inherently illogical.

Your pleas to keep the discussion apolitical while giving two examples of politics cited makes it difficult to understand what the bounds of the discussion are to be. How can we be apolitical if you avow your support for the (political) #metoo movement and decry the politics inherent in a political (Nazi) party?

Also, are "Nazis, slavers and racists" the only bad people in history that we should not aspire to play in games? Without going through a laundry list of rotten people in history, I can say that that list is very much incomplete.

How do you define racism anyways? Is it the definition of old or is it the newfangled 'definition' whereby anybody can be called a racist for anything at all?

Sorry, I didn't / won't read the NY Times article for further clarification. This subject is too inflammatory to drive through with imprecise language and ground rules.

_____________________________


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Post #: 12
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 4:20:27 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Okay I struggled through most of it but couldn't finish. Definitely has a political lean while trying to sound as if it's some kind of social comment. I really can't make any more truthful or accurate comments without getting into politics.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to RFalvo69)
Post #: 13
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 4:21:36 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

An interesting article that recently appeared on The New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/01/style/board-games-cancel-culture.html?fbclid=IwAR3WG8ITMjMQBVXmfmuThdLlkAl6qu6gahxm5XFlurPvdLVSHSdJWTwuWdU

It is worth noting how the "Scramble for Africa" is basically the theme of the second expansion for Paradox's "Victoria 2" (titled "Heart of Darkness") - and how at the time no one objected.

Personally, I just hope that we are not entering in a #metoo (*) movement towards boardgames and wargames - both tabletop and digital. It would be retrograde, damaging and, IMHO, futile.

Please, let's keep the discussion civil and apolitical, as mandated by the forum rules.

(*) Just to be clear, I support the #metoo movement for women's rights.




RFalvo69, the way you phrased your question is inherently illogical.

Your pleas to keep the discussion apolitical while giving two examples of politics cited makes it difficult to understand what the bounds of the discussion are to be. How can we be apolitical if you avow your support for the (political) #metoo movement and decry the politics inherent in a political (Nazi) party?

Also, are "Nazis, slavers and racists" the only bad people in history that we should not aspire to play in games? Without going through a laundry list of rotten people in history, I can say that that list is very much incomplete.

How do you define racism anyways? Is it the definition of old or is it the newfangled 'definition' whereby anybody can be called a racist for anything at all?

Sorry, I didn't / won't read the NY Times article for further clarification. This subject is too inflammatory to drive through with imprecise language and ground rules.


And here you have it. Someone who has to take a thread and throw it in the fire.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 14
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 4:29:59 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

An interesting article that recently appeared on The New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/01/style/board-games-cancel-culture.html?fbclid=IwAR3WG8ITMjMQBVXmfmuThdLlkAl6qu6gahxm5XFlurPvdLVSHSdJWTwuWdU

It is worth noting how the "Scramble for Africa" is basically the theme of the second expansion for Paradox's "Victoria 2" (titled "Heart of Darkness") - and how at the time no one objected.

Personally, I just hope that we are not entering in a #metoo (*) movement towards boardgames and wargames - both tabletop and digital. It would be retrograde, damaging and, IMHO, futile.

Please, let's keep the discussion civil and apolitical, as mandated by the forum rules.

(*) Just to be clear, I support the #metoo movement for women's rights.




RFalvo69, the way you phrased your question is inherently illogical.

Your pleas to keep the discussion apolitical while giving two examples of politics cited makes it difficult to understand what the bounds of the discussion are to be. How can we be apolitical if you avow your support for the (political) #metoo movement and decry the politics inherent in a political (Nazi) party?

Also, are "Nazis, slavers and racists" the only bad people in history that we should not aspire to play in games? Without going through a laundry list of rotten people in history, I can say that that list is very much incomplete.

How do you define racism anyways? Is it the definition of old or is it the newfangled 'definition' whereby anybody can be called a racist for anything at all?

Sorry, I didn't / won't read the NY Times article for further clarification. This subject is too inflammatory to drive through with imprecise language and ground rules.


And here you have it. Someone who has to take a thread and throw it in the fire.


Quite the contrary. I merely stated that I couldn't comply with the OPs request to discuss this topic, as I was unclear on the ground rules for said discussion. I pointed out a couple incompatibilities with the OPs request and left it at that.

"Throw it on the fire"? Good grief. If I wanted to do that, I'd have started a laundry list of awful people / political systems throughout history-people / systems that we should never ever discuss in polite company, let alone game. But I didn't. And there you have it.

_____________________________


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Post #: 15
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 4:45:33 PM   
operating


Posts: 3158
Joined: 1/19/2013
Status: offline 		Before commenting opened up the OP's suggested site, only to find a subscription block. I'll be damn*ed to do so (join). Lobster pretty much expresses my sentiments..

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Post #: 16
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 4:49:11 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 973
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: operating

Before commenting opened up the OP's suggested site, only to find a subscription block. I'll be damn*ed to do so (join). Lobster pretty much expresses my sentiments..


Newest Chrome update (I use Firefox, but from what I've read) fixes the incognito mode loophole where websites could tell if you were using incognito mode. Now, you can use incognito mode and get around the "free article" limitations. Only way websites can prevent you is by using hard paywalls that require logins.

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Post #: 17
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 4:50:43 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		I blame it all on Charles S. Roberts and James F. Dunnigan. Two of my favorite boy hood heroes!



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Post #: 18
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 4:53:45 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rico21

" Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Whites, Whites and Whites? "

warspite1

So here is a question that SHOULD be debated by people like us. After all if we aren't allowed to discuss it, as gamers, then who can?

But because of the subject matter it needs delicacy and a sensible approach. What do we get? This comment....

The suggests you are making a joke (I think) but how is that even remotely funny?

You think slavery was only practised by white people? Who helped sell African slaves to the white man? You think only white people can be racist? You think there have never been fascist-style governments in Africa?


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Post #: 19
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 4:56:14 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 973
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline 		"Should Actors Play the Roles of Racists, Slavers and Nazis?"

I've read these articles before, and I vehemently disagree. Won't get into details, but essentially there are good people and bad people. History itself is neutral, but people can warp it and use it for good or bad. This applies to basically every other medium or hobby. Wargaming has helped me learn so much about geography and history and has led to a lifelong love for learning about languages and cultures of other countries which has led to greater empathy and understanding when I deal with people who aren't native to my region.

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Post #: 20
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 5:19:35 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

"Should Actors Play the Roles of Racists, Slavers and Nazis?"

I've read these articles before, and I vehemently disagree. Won't get into details, but essentially there are good people and bad people. History itself is neutral, but people can warp it and use it for good or bad. This applies to basically every other medium or hobby. Wargaming has helped me learn so much about geography and history and has led to a lifelong love for learning about languages and cultures of other countries which has led to greater empathy and understanding when I deal with people who aren't native to my region.


Aye, if I'm playing an East Front game I know the SS is Nazi. How do I know that? Because I read the history. The game didn't make me know the SS was a Nazi organization. It merely pointed me to the books that told me. I also know that not every German was a Nazi or anti Semite. If it were not for a game I may not have known any of this. So, should the books be banned since they were the pregenitor of the game? The written word as history is what made the games possible in the first place. If I read a book about slavery am I guilty of promoting slavery?

_____________________________

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to Bamilus)
Post #: 21
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 5:35:25 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

An interesting article that recently appeared on The New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/01/style/board-games-cancel-culture.html?fbclid=IwAR3WG8ITMjMQBVXmfmuThdLlkAl6qu6gahxm5XFlurPvdLVSHSdJWTwuWdU

It is worth noting how the "Scramble for Africa" is basically the theme of the second expansion for Paradox's "Victoria 2" (titled "Heart of Darkness") - and how at the time no one objected.

Personally, I just hope that we are not entering in a #metoo (*) movement towards boardgames and wargames - both tabletop and digital. It would be retrograde, damaging and, IMHO, futile.

Please, let's keep the discussion civil and apolitical, as mandated by the forum rules.

(*) Just to be clear, I support the #metoo movement for women's rights.


warspite1

So Victoria 2 was binned because of the subject matter.

I am not a huge fan of censorship – and certainly not in the exploration of history - but I can certainly understand why this game – the way it appears to have been described – could be seen as less than ideal for gaming in the 21st Century.

So what’s the difference between playing the Germans in World In Flames or the Japanese in WITP-AE and the Belgians in Victoria 2? Well in neither WWII game are the Axis players rewarded for atrocities committed or how quickly and efficiently the Final Solution can be implemented. In other words, the games are focused on the military angle.

Yes Victoria 2 apparently had rewards for ending slavery and penalties for atrocities but presumably players can also choose to forego the rewards and take the penalty as there is likely to be other knock-on events.

I think one of – if not the - biggest problem with all these types of thing is the unknown of who decides what is acceptable and what is not?

Is it beyond the realms of imagination that in future some self-important, ignorant career politician would demand the banning of, for example, all US Civil War games – even those that concentrate solely on the military aspect – on the basis that ‘surely no one would want to play the ‘evil’ south’ and if they did then they must obviously be an inherent racist…..’.

There is nothing that politicians and preening self-promoting 'celebrities' love more than a cause. But only if that cause is an easy target. Middle-aged wargamers with a military history fixation are about as easy a target as they can get

And apologies if that moved into the political arena but let's be honest, the motivation for this type of thing is political first and foremost.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 8/2/2019 5:37:28 PM >

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Post #: 22
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 5:40:18 PM   
RFalvo69


Posts: 1380
Joined: 7/11/2013
From: Lamezia Terme (Italy)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy
RFalvo69, the way you phrased your question is inherently illogical.

Your pleas to keep the discussion apolitical while giving two examples of politics cited makes it difficult to understand what the bounds of the discussion are to be. How can we be apolitical if you avow your support for the (political) #metoo movement and decry the politics inherent in a political (Nazi) party?


As I pointed out, I don't feel the need of a #metoo movement *in games*. And I posted my message after a movement of protest *actually caused the cancellation of a game*. We are not talking about hypotheticals: it happened.

No. I want for my freedom of choice *in gaming* to be preserved: if a game offends me it is up to me to vote with my wallet and maybe sink it - not to some "concerned citizens" who probably never even read the rulebook.

I mentioned the #metoo movement for women rights only because I felt the need to underline how we are applying the concept to different fields - one of which I support. End of the story.

_____________________________

"Yes darling, I served in the Navy for eight years. I was a cook..."
"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 23
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 6:07:30 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Yes Victoria 2 apparently had rewards for ending slavery and penalties for atrocities but presumably players can also choose to forego the rewards and take the penalty as there is likely to be other knock-on events.




How can you separate Victoria 2 from the likes of games that are all about murdering people. At least Victoria 2 does not reward people with real world money for playing a game based solely on murder: "Epic makes ‘Fortnite’ biggest esport in the world with $100 million in prize money"

Censorship in this case is based only on popularity.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 24
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 6:22:22 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69
No. I want for my freedom of choice *in gaming* to be preserved: if a game offends me it is up to me to vote with my wallet and maybe sink it - not to some "concerned citizens" who probably never even read the rulebook.


I totally agree and feel the same way. Why not just say this instead of some convoluted allegory expressing why your discussion of a political movement that you support had any relevance to this point?

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Post #: 25
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 6:33:07 PM   
Blond_Knight


Posts: 1031
Joined: 5/15/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


I totally agree and feel the same way. Why not just say this instead of some convoluted allegory expressing why your discussion of a political movement that you support had any relevance to this point?


I think he was trying to be very careful walking in a minefield. At best just avoiding some BS on this forum, and at worst preventing the "Lets get him fired" mentality that these "do-gooder" parasites often have.


(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 26
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 6:36:23 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		So, let me see if I understand the POV of those would-be censors.

We can't play wargames from *anywhere* that are depicting conflicts dated pre-1850. Because those may portray some benefit to the global and pervasive practice of slavery.

We can't play the Southern Confederacy in the US Civil War because of their espousal of States' Rights and the ongoing practice of slavery. We can't play the Nazis in games set in WWII. We shouldn't play the Japanese either. Or the US, what with firebombing of German and Japanese cities. The British? Don't make me laugh-see my explanation for the US. Plus, much of the British commonwealth was built upon the practice of slavery-see Jamaica and the West Indies. So no Commonwealth forces.

We probably shouldn't play anything Communist, whether that's Stalin's Soviet Union or more modern China in a Segue to the Korean War. Same with NVA in Vietnam.

We probably shouldn't play any country on Earth because of inherent racism at some point or the other in their history.

And war as a concept and practice is a terrible venture that isn't appropriate to discuss, play games with or practice. We should go into the next war blind, deaf and naive and learn nothing from history other than that which the liberal MSM squeals at us incessantly.

I've heard iterations of this story off and on for 30 years. Always by those that think their political torch du jour is the most important thing ever and that those who think differently should be silenced, banned or cut off.

_____________________________


(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 27
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 6:51:09 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

So, let me see if I understand the POV of those would-be censors.

We can't play wargames from *anywhere* that are depicting conflicts dated pre-1850. Because those may portray some benefit to the global and pervasive practice of slavery.

We can't play the Southern Confederacy in the US Civil War because of their espousal of States' Rights and the ongoing practice of slavery. We can't play the Nazis in games set in WWII. We shouldn't play the Japanese either. Or the US, what with firebombing of German and Japanese cities. The British? Don't make me laugh-see my explanation for the US. Plus, much of the British commonwealth was built upon the practice of slavery-see Jamaica and the West Indies. So no Commonwealth forces.

We probably shouldn't play anything Communist, whether that's Stalin's Soviet Union or more modern China in a Segue to the Korean War. Same with NVA in Vietnam.

We probably shouldn't play any country on Earth because of inherent racism at some point or the other in their history.

And war as a concept and practice is a terrible venture that isn't appropriate to discuss, play games with or practice. We should go into the next war blind, deaf and naive and learn nothing from history other than that which the liberal MSM squeals at us incessantly.

I've heard iterations of this story off and on for 30 years. Always by those that think their political torch du jour is the most important thing ever and that those who think differently should be silenced, banned or cut off.


There's also the point that wargames can be a valuable tool for the exploration of history. Did the Confederacy have no chance, as proponents of the "Lost Cause" have argued, or did they throw away golden opportunities such as the aftermath of Chickamauga? Could the Allies have invaded Japan and obtained a surrender with casualties fewer than the atomic bombs? (Some 40 years ago, the Smithsonian was urged to display an estimate of 50,000 fatalities for a conventional invasion in its display of the a-bomb missions, a preposterously low number.) If we can only play politically correct games, we'll be mostly playing science fiction. (Which isn't bad of itself, but we'll have to give up a lot.)

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 28
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 6:56:32 PM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

How do you define racism anyways?

I refer you to a dictionary


quote:

Is it the definition of old or is it the newfangled 'definition' whereby anybody can be called a racist for anything at all?

Start discussions about definition of words (you did that). Smack newfangled with the dictionary, big and hard one preferred. In forums, Twitter, and the likes, link to Wikipedia like I do here. It may prove to be useless against stubborn forum moderators and administrators who think/claim that mention of spanking is worse than mention of killing and wars, and is something sexual related

I'll show them, as soon as my temporary ban (30 days) is up and can post again

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 29
RE: "Should Board Gamers Play the Roles of Racists... - 8/2/2019 7:15:09 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Yes Victoria 2 apparently had rewards for ending slavery and penalties for atrocities but presumably players can also choose to forego the rewards and take the penalty as there is likely to be other knock-on events.




How can you separate Victoria 2 from the likes of games that are all about murdering people. At least Victoria 2 does not reward people with real world money for playing a game based solely on murder: "Epic makes ‘Fortnite’ biggest esport in the world with $100 million in prize money"

Censorship in this case is based only on popularity.
warspite1

There are a couple of things here:

a) How can I separate them? I didn't make any mention of games like Fortnite. What in my post makes you think I have?

b) Censorship is based on popularity. Yes and that was exactly one of the points I made. You try and get a politician or 'celebrity' to stick his/her head above the parapet and ban GTA or Fortnite. It isn't going to happen - but military wargames? Yeah, easy target, less popular and so no problem.



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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 30
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