RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War in the Pacific: Admirals Edition

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RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 6/29/2019 12:48:34 PM

Aksully

Posts: 97
Joined: 2/16/2016
Status: offline

Thanks for your comments Hans! They're very helpful.

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 601

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 6/30/2019 2:06:40 AM

Schlussel

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Supply Divisions:

The idea for supply divisions started in at a point where I already had CS convoys established to all of my forward hubs and Liberty ships started accumulating in San Fran.

I use SF as my main supply hub and LA as my main fuel hub as each seemed to be the main centers where those commodities accumulated most heavily. This resulted in my sending every new xAK to SF and every new tanker to LA.

As the liberty ship buildup increased and I started needing very large allotments of supply to accompany invasions I decided to form SupDivs to operate with my CarDivs, BatDivs, CruDivs and such as I moved to secure new footholds. 40 Liberty ships equates to an even quarter million supply and 20k fuel and seemed reasonably sized without being gargantuan. At first I added 8 escorts to each, but have since scaled that back as the Japanese navy's operating area has become restricted to the HI in late '45.

Victory ships start arriving long after the Liberty ships start accumulating. You don't get them in as large a volume as the Liberty ships. They have slightly shorter legs than the Liberties, but carry slightly more cargo and fuel and are much faster. I think 2 of my 22 SupDivs are filled with Victory ships.

As my SupDivs accumulated I was able to move allotments of 1-2 million supply at one time in one operation without putting any strain on the infrastructure. When I came to the Marianas in late summer of '44 I brought 2 million supply along in the initial wave followed pretty quickly by another 2 million. Once established in the Marianas my SupDivs started plying back and forth between SF and Guam, arriving but not unloading, so I could have a huge aboard ship stockpile there to support the next moves.

I brought 2 million supply with me to Okinawa and sent another 2 million to China once I was established at Okinawa. The invasion of Kyushu brought another 4 million. The massive size of the American navy in late 45 is staggering.

I've heard that a big challenge to the allied player in the late war is finding a use for the massive amounts of men, ships, and planes they receive. It looks like you have definitely found a great way to use all those cargo ships. I like this idea Hans because, like you said, it allows some flexibility in moving supply without changing your CS convoys. So 40 ships (plus escorts) is larger than I'm accustomed to using in my cargo TFs. Do you have issues with ships colliding?

_____________________________

You say we're surrounded?
Excellent!
That means we can attack in any direction.

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 602

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/13/2019 3:40:42 AM

Schlussel

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aksully

Thanks Schlussel I really appreciate the clarification! I'm storing your comments in my Databank! Hope all is well there in Sacramento. I loved the city when I was stationed at Travis AFB back in the early 80's!
Have a great weekend!

You're welcome sir, and thanks for reading. Things are good here in Sacramento, warm weather and full reservoirs.

_____________________________

You say we're surrounded?
Excellent!
That means we can attack in any direction.

(in reply to Aksully)

Post #: 603

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/13/2019 1:41:26 PM

larryfulkerson

Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

Do you have issues with ships colliding?

I'm curious to know also.

_____________________________

If we're all created in the image of god then why aren't we all invisible?

(in reply to Schlussel)

Post #: 604

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/13/2019 5:04:17 PM

Schlussel

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

Week 119: March 22nd – March 28th 1944

North Pacific:
The gears of war are finally moving (albeit at a glacial pace) in the north. The Allies have been reconning the Kuriles and Onnekotan-Jima has been chosen as the first target. Movement of troops and supplies to Adak (the jump-off point) is in process. APs are in short supply in the north, so the troop movement will be the long pole in the tent. Current estimates indicate the landings will occur in late April.

Central Pacific:
Mop-up operations continue in the Marianas. Pagan is the next target, and the operation gets a battalion of NZ infantry. The troops are en route, so this week the island gets the Attention of the B-24 Liberators stationed in the Southern Marianas. By the end of the week, both port and airfield damage are at 100. The way has been paved for the landings, which should occur early next week.

Luzon invasion is set to begin on the 30th with troops hitting the beaches at Legaspi. Intel reports a light enemy garrison (1 unit, most likely a support type unit), so the real danger here will be from the Japanese air. With the Japanese CV threat diminished, Allied CVs are fighter-heavy with layered CAP

Southern Pacific:
No IJN activity.

South-West Pacific:
In the Celebes, the Allies force at Kendari continues its overland march to Makassar to provide the AV needed to take the base.

Intel indicates only a base force garrison at Balikpapan, so a small force of fully-prepped units (1-RCT, 1-Tank Btn., 1-Arty) begin loading at Morotai. Un-prepped support units are available once the base is captured.

SE Asia/China:
The advance down the Malayan peninsula continues. On the 22nd, Alor Star is captured by the Allies. Now most of the Allied force will continue south, with a small force staying behind to eliminate the surrounded troops.
In Sumatra the 81st and 11th Divisions continue to assault Sabang and reduce the defenders AV from 255 to 178 and forts from 5 to 2. A BB bombardment should arrive on the 30th, and a renewed attack will coincide with this, and it should be enough to take the base.

BB Yamashiro tries to run the sub picket line south of Formosa, and gets two torps put into her. No sinking sounds, so I’m assuming she is still afloat, though she’ll be out of the war for a while.

In northern China, a Japanese offensive is taking shape. 75K enemy troops advance eastward from Taiyuan while a secondary force advances northeast to threaten Yenan. Both advances are being actively resisted by the Chinese, however the force balance favors the Japanese. To counter this, a minor Chinese advance takes Kweisui. The goal is to threaten Peiping from the north and hopefully draw some of those Japanese troops away.

In southern China, another round of deliberate assaults are attempted by the Allies at Canton, dropping the forts down to 0 . Both sides’ losses are about 6K and the AV ratio is 5,520:423. The Allies will rest up and attack early next week, meanwhile Allied bombers target the airfield to keep the defenders from rebuilding their forts. At Sinyang, the Japanese are surrounded, but continue to fight tooth and nail for this strategic city. The Chinese lack of combat engineers is really showing here, as assaults fail to reduce fort levels.

Japanese pocket at Kuikiang (18 units/120K troops) continues to hold out, while the one west of Pucheng (2 units, 30K troops) finally surrenders. This frees up some units to drive on Wenchow.

IJN Watch:
-1-CV, 1-CVL sighted near Malacca (3/22)
-BB Ise and BB Nagata are sighted near Malacca (3/27)
-BB Yamashiro sighted south of Formosa (3/28)

Notable Base Captures:
- Alor Star [Malaya] captured by the Allies (3/22)
- Luchow [China] captured by the Allies (3/22)
- Kweisui [China] captured by the Allies (3/27)
- Tsinian [China] captured by the Allies (3/28)

Campaign Overview:
Aircraft Losses to date [change]:
Allies: 9,475 [+39]

Japanese: 28,203 [+381]

Ship Losses to date [change]:
Allies: 709 [+8]
Notables: CV Enterprise, CV Victorious, CVE Copahee, CVE Corregidor, CVE Nassau, CVE St.Lo, 5 CA, 14 CL, 29 DD

Japanese: 1,675 [+30]
Notables: CV Akagi, CV Kaga, CV Hiryu, CV Hiyo, CV Junyo, CV Soryu, CV Shokaku, CV Zuikaku, CVL Shoho, CVL Ryuho, CVL Ryujo, CVL Zuiho, CVE Hosho, CVE Taiyo, BB Fuso, BB Haruna, BB Hiei, BB Kongo, BB Mutsu, BB Yamato, BB Musashi, 18 CA, 22 CL, 51 DD

Army Losses to date [change]:
Allies: 11,499 [+57]
Japanese: 16,290 [+504]
A/J Ratio: 0.71 to 1

VP Totals [change]:
Allies: 79,086 [+632]
Japanese: 34,873 [+248]
A/J Ratio: 2.27 to 1

Operation Chimera:
Phase 1A:
-Assault & Capture Cotabato [COMPLETE]
-Secure Mindano [COMPLETE]

Phase 1B:
-Assault & Capture Balikpapan [IN PROGRESS – Forces en route]
-Assault & Capture Jolo [COMPLETE]
-Reinforce Brunei [COMPLETE]

Phase 1C:
-Assault & Capture Watampone [COMPLETE]
-Assault & Capture Kolaka [COMPLETE]
-Assault & Capture Makassar [IN PROGRESS – AV 295:181 Forts unknown]
-Assault & Capture Kendari [COMPLETE]

Operation Harbinger:
Phase 1:
-Assault & Capture Legaspi [IN PROGRESS – Forces en route]
-Assault & Capture Atimonian [IN PROGRESS – Forces en route]
-Assault & Capture Lingayen [IN PROGRESS – Forces en route]
-Assault & Capture Aparri [IN PROGRESS – Forces assembling in Marianas]
-Assault & Capture Manilla

Phase 2a:
-Assault & Capture Ishigaki
-Assault & Capture Miyako-Jima

Phase 2b:
-Assault & Capture Okinawa
-Assault & Capture Amami-Oshima

Other Notes:
-Superforts begin to arrive at Aden. They are promptly loaded on transports, on their way to Karachi. From there most will head to the Philippines/Marianas to strat bomb, with a few possibly being diverted to Malaya to help reduce Singapore.
-Sub picket lines in the South China Sea account for 8 ships this week [1-AK, 1-AO, 1-PB, 2-TK, 3-E]

_____________________________

You say we're surrounded?
Excellent!
That means we can attack in any direction.

(in reply to Schlussel)

Post #: 605

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/13/2019 7:32:23 PM

Korvar

Posts: 813
Joined: 9/3/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

Do you have issues with ships colliding?

I'm curious to know also.

+1

My rule of thumb is to try limiting combat TFs to 15 vessels and cargo TFs to 20. I'm pretty sure I got those habits from what I read on the forums, although I cannot recall a single origin post or thread.

_____________________________

WitP:AE Install & Configuration App - Get SeaBee Here
Allied Ship Insignia Art

(in reply to larryfulkerson)

Post #: 606

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/15/2019 1:19:04 PM

jwolf

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline

quote:

The Chinese lack of combat engineers is really showing here, as assaults fail to reduce fort levels.

I recommend moving a few Commonwealth combat engineer units into China via Paoshan. It takes them a long time to make this trip, unfortunately, but they will help with some of those tough sieges.

I believe you will have too little supply at Yenan or NE of there for any sustained land operations, until you can clear some of the southern or central bases, notably Sinyang.

The fighting at Canton must be hideously brutal.

(in reply to Korvar)

Post #: 607

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/16/2019 4:51:28 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

Do you have issues with ships colliding?

I'm curious to know also.

+1

My rule of thumb is to try limiting combat TFs to 15 vessels and cargo TFs to 20. I'm pretty sure I got those habits from what I read on the forums, although I cannot recall a single origin post or thread.

My game is nearing the end of 1945 and I have routinely been using the 100 ship limit for Amphibious TFs with no issues.

I have also been running Supply Divisions consisting of 40 Liberty or Victory ships and escorts. Have been running 22 of these TFs for over a year with no issues.

Collisions only seem to be a factor if the TF actually gets into combat.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to Korvar)

Post #: 608

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/16/2019 5:26:47 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

Do you have issues with ships colliding?

I'm curious to know also.

+1

My rule of thumb is to try limiting combat TFs to 15 vessels and cargo TFs to 20. I'm pretty sure I got those habits from what I read on the forums, although I cannot recall a single origin post or thread.

My game is nearing the end of 1945 and I have routinely been using the 100 ship limit for Amphibious TFs with no issues.

I have also been running Supply Divisions consisting of 40 Liberty or Victory ships and escorts. Have been running 22 of these TFs for over a year with no issues.

Collisions only seem to be a factor if the TF actually gets into combat.

Or, given the numbers, they are colliding and sinking but the loss is not noticeable!

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 609

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/16/2019 7:20:31 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Korvar

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

Do you have issues with ships colliding?

I'm curious to know also.

+1

My rule of thumb is to try limiting combat TFs to 15 vessels and cargo TFs to 20. I'm pretty sure I got those habits from what I read on the forums, although I cannot recall a single origin post or thread.

My game is nearing the end of 1945 and I have routinely been using the 100 ship limit for Amphibious TFs with no issues.

I have also been running Supply Divisions consisting of 40 Liberty or Victory ships and escorts. Have been running 22 of these TFs for over a year with no issues.

Collisions only seem to be a factor if the TF actually gets into combat.

Or, given the numbers, they are colliding and sinking but the loss is not noticeable!

I have never seen damage levels beyond minimal wear and tear on the 100 ship Amphib TFs, but then they are never assembled for long and typically don't travel very far.

As for the Supply Divisions, they have been plying between SanFran and the Marianas for almost a year. I do occasionally see one or two ships with heavier damage than can be attributed to wear and tear so either they suffered collisions or passed through a bad storm. I keep a stockpile of Liberty and Victory ships at SF to quickly replace damaged ships so there is no real impact to this minor attrition.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 610

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/19/2019 4:09:43 AM

Schlussel

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

Situation Report – April 1st 1944

Central/North Pacific:

Capital Ships:
6-CVE, 1-CVL, 2-BB @Pearl Harbor

Near-Term Plans:
Capture Wake, Okinawa, and Onnekotan-Jima

Long Term Plans:
Advance on Formosa, capture Kuriles. Strategic Bombing.

SW Pacific:

Capital Ships: 9-CV, 14-CVE, 3-CVL, 13-BB

Near-Term Plans:
Capture Luzon, keep home islands isolated from DEI

Long Term Plans:
Capture Java

SE Asia/China:

Capital Ships:
2-CV, 1-CVE, 1-BB

Near-Term Plans:
Advance down Malaya Peninsula to threaten Singapore. Capture Sumatra, advance into Eastern/Northern China

Long Term Plans:
Capture Singapore, Sumatra, and Shanghai.

Base Supply Status:

_____________________________

You say we're surrounded?
Excellent!
That means we can attack in any direction.

(in reply to Schlussel)

Post #: 611

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/22/2019 7:22:22 PM

Schlussel

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

Week 120: March 29th – April 4th 1944

North Pacific:
Movement of troops and supplies continues. 6 CVEs arrive at Adak along with some supply, bringing stocks to 100K, fuel stores are at about 50K. More work still to be done, but we are still on track for an end of April invasion.

Central Pacific:
Pagan is assaulted and finds 8 enemy units present with a total AV of 250. The Japanese here seem to be out of supply, as the usual bombardments are not attempted. The Allied force is composed of only two NZ brigades, but they should be able to hold their own. They can take their time to rest up, as Allied bombing runs inflict a reported 200-250 casualties daily on the Pagan garrison.

So far, phase 1 of Operation Harbinger (Luzon invasion) is going according to plan. Troops hit the Legaspi beaches on the 31st and the base is captured the following day. On the 2nd, the Atimonian invasion goes off without a hitch, and it is occupied on the 3rd. Both bases were thinly defended, now begins the march to Manilla, which intel shows to have 13 units and 30K troops.

Speaking of Manilla…on April 1st, recon spotted a tempting target 10+ ships at Manilla, and reported a few were CVEs. Air assets were moved into position, and on April 4th, 96 Liberators performed a well-coordinated attack. They blasted through a 40 plane CAP that consisted of mostly Oscars and Zeroes, and zeroed in on the defenseless Japanese shipping. 2-CVEs (Unyo and Shinyo along with their 71 aircraft), 9-DDs, a CS, and an E boat were sunk…not a bad haul.

In a “little” side endeavor, 2 Divisions hit Wake. This operation, while not necessary, was green-lighted to remove nuisance air raids on my convoys, and to test the Allies atoll invasion tactics. The troops performed well. The 100AV enemy garrison was gutted on the initial shock attack, and forts were reduced from 6 to 2. The following day another shock attack easily took the base. The coastal guns took out 3 xAKs and 3 LCIs, but I think that is an acceptable price to pay for neutralizing this Japanese outpost.

Southern Pacific:
No IJN activity.

South-West Pacific:
In the Celebes, the Allies force at Kendari continues its overland march to Makassar to provide the AV needed to take the base.

Troops unload at Balikpapan and find a small garrison (a base force and a support unit), but they are dug in behind level 7 forts. The initial attack reduced these forts from 7 to 6, with low casualties (<300) on both sides. A follow up assault will be on tap for early next week.

SE Asia/China:
The advance down the Malayan peninsula continues. The enemy forces surrounded at Alor Star are finally eliminated. Allied forces are now at Temuloh and are marching on Kuala Lumpur. Clearing off the railroad line has allowed support units to keep up with the advance.

In Sumatra the 81st and 11th Divisions capture Sabang. The 81st rests up in Sabang, while the 11th pursues the fleeing enemy to the southwest. Further south, a small Allied force advances towards Sibolga.

In northern China, the Japanese offensive is in full motion. The enemy has the AV advantage (1,500 to 500 at west Taiyuan and 800 to 400 at Yenan. However, in both locations, the (-) SUPPLY modifier was present for the Japanese. Chinese reinforcements are en-route to hopefully stabilize the situation.

In southern China, Canton falls as the Chinese/British force finally overwhelms the cities defenses. A third of the Allied force pursues the fleeing Japanese eastward, a third continues south to Hong Kong, and the remainder is granted some well-deserved rest. At Sinyang, the Japanese are surrounded, but continue to fight tooth and nail for this strategic city. British combat engineers are inbound from the west, but won’t arrive for three weeks or so.

Japanese pocket at Kuikiang (18 units/120K troops) continues to hold out. All the hex sides belong to the Allies, so units are being siphoned off to help the advances elsewhere while a minimum force remains to maintain the siege. Once the Singapore operation winds down, some airpower may be available to assist in reducing the Kiukiang pocket.

IJN Watch:
- 2-CVE sighted in Manilla harbor (4/1)

Notable Base Captures:
- Canton [China] captured by the Allies (3/30)
- Sabang [Sumatra] captured by the Allies (3/30)
- Zamboanga [Philippines] captured by the Allies (3/31)
- Legaspi [Philippines] captured by the Allies (4/1)
- Mangan [China] captured by the Allies (4/1)
- Atimonian [Philippines] captured by the Allies (4/3)
- Wake [Central Pacific] captured by the Allies (4/3)

Campaign Overview:
Aircraft Losses to date [change]:
Allies: 9,518 [+43]

Japanese: 28,814 [+611]

Ship Losses to date [change]:
Allies: 718 [+9]
Notables: CV Enterprise, CV Victorious, CVE Copahee, CVE Corregidor, CVE Nassau, CVE St.Lo, 5 CA, 14 CL, 29 DD

Japanese: 1,700 [+25]
Notables: CV Akagi, CV Kaga, CV Hiryu, CV Hiyo, CV Junyo, CV Soryu, CV Shokaku, CV Zuikaku, CVL Shoho, CVL Ryuho, CVL Ryujo, CVL Zuiho, CVE Hosho, CVE Taiyo,CVE Unyo, CVE Shinyo, BB Fuso, BB Haruna, BB Hiei, BB Kongo, BB Mutsu, BB Yamato, BB Musashi, 18 CA, 22 CL, 60 DD

Army Losses to date [change]:
Allies: 11,607 [+108]
Japanese: 17,100 [+810]
A/J Ratio: 0.68 to 1

VP Totals [change]:
Allies: 81,347 [+2,261]
Japanese: 35,016 [+143]
A/J Ratio: 2.32 to 1

Operation Chimera:
Phase 1A:
-Assault & Capture Cotabato [COMPLETE]
-Secure Mindano [COMPLETE]

Phase 1B:
-Assault & Capture Balikpapan [IN PROGRESS – AV222:10 Forts at 6]
-Assault & Capture Jolo [COMPLETE]
-Reinforce Brunei [COMPLETE]

Phase 1C:
-Assault & Capture Watampone [COMPLETE]
-Assault & Capture Kolaka [COMPLETE]
-Assault & Capture Makassar [IN PROGRESS – AV 300:173 Forts at 9]
-Assault & Capture Kendari [COMPLETE]

Operation Harbinger:
Phase 1:
-Assault & Capture Legaspi [COMPLETE]
-Assault & Capture Atimonian [COMPLETE]
-Assault & Capture Lingayen [IN PROGRESS – Forces loading in Marianas]
-Assault & Capture Aparri [IN PROGRESS – Forces loading in Marianas]
-Assault & Capture Manilla

Phase 2a:
-Assault & Capture Ishigaki
-Assault & Capture Miyako-Jima

Phase 2b:
-Assault & Capture Okinawa
-Assault & Capture Amami-Oshima

Other Notes:
-Sub picket lines in the South China Sea account for 3 ships this week [2-AK and 1-E]

_____________________________

You say we're surrounded?
Excellent!
That means we can attack in any direction.

(in reply to Schlussel)

Post #: 612

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/22/2019 10:13:14 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

I don't understand that many important ships at Manila after you reconned it. Any base within range of 4Es should not have them there unless there is a lot of CAP and AAA.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child

(in reply to Schlussel)

Post #: 613

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/23/2019 1:34:46 AM

Schlussel

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

Agreed. Sometimes the AI isn't as diligent as a human player would be. Although, in its defense, I've seen even human players make that mistake from time to time.

_____________________________

You say we're surrounded?
Excellent!
That means we can attack in any direction.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 614

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/23/2019 5:48:55 PM

Macclan5

Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline

Another excellent update once again.

Thank you for the global supply map. This little facet of this AAR is one of the most under commented / under appreciated upon; but for any newbie interested in learning this game I think it is immensely important and not really covered in many other veteran AARs

I bought a game about Naval / Combined tactics war in the Pacific during WW2.

I got a game about logistics and resource management

Debatable Question:

The red and bold are my emphasis of your own words

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schlussel

SE Asia/China:
The advance down the Malayan peninsula continues. The enemy forces surrounded at Alor Star are finally eliminated. Allied forces are now at Temuloh and are marching on Kuala Lumpur. Clearing off the railroad line has allowed support units to keep up with the advance.

...

In southern China, Canton falls as the Chinese/British force finally overwhelms the cities defenses. A third of the Allied force pursues the fleeing Japanese eastward, a third continues south to Hong Kong, and the remainder is granted some well-deserved rest. At Sinyang, the Japanese are surrounded, but continue to fight tooth and nail for this strategic city. British combat engineers are inbound from the west, but won’t arrive for three weeks or so.

Once the Singapore operation winds down, some airpower may be available to assist in reducing the Kiukiang pocket.

Questions:

Do you still agree with your decisions to strategically split your (Mostly British / Indian / some American ) forces and attack both towards Singapore and towards Hong Kong via French IndoChina ?

Do you think it is more economical to "hold the line" at perhaps Bangkok and focus one direction or the other ?

Do you think managing logistics, follow up troops, etc would be easier - harder ?

Or would you opine that attacking both directions is just as economical / effective ?

I do note that you have not yet reached Singapore and what I suspect will be a costly and long siege - your opinion may change ?

Disclaimer : In all honesty I have played it both ways - I am not certain - torn. There are merits to both approaches - but I tend to be a disciple of concentrated strength at one point of attack verses broad advances noting situational differences may need to alter that point of view.

_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

(in reply to Schlussel)

Post #: 615

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/23/2019 8:42:05 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

Because of the potential for very high forts and large LCUs opposing you, the way to handle Singers seems to be:
1. Totally isolate, including resupply/reinforcement by air or sea
2. Bomb heavily to kill supply and reduce LCU recovery (vis-à-vis undamaged base facilities)
3. When supply seems to be running low and the coastal defences damaged (guns destroyed or disabled, and the support squads that man them too), send in minesweepers to clean out most of the mines. Use the least valuable/shortest range ones you have.
4. Send in bombardment TFs with embedded DMSs.
5. When it looks like the resistance is substantially hurting (disablements turning into destroyed squads), send a minimal force that is strong enough to resist a counterattack (after crossing losses) but not necessarily able to take Singapore.
6. Once the first wave is marching toward the crossing, on the following day send a wave that is at least 2X the starting AV of the first wave. The first wave will shock attack and subsequent waves must have less than 3.3X the AV remaining in the first wave to avoid shock attacking.

If the second wave about to cross (it is only one day behind if movement speed is equal to first wave) but has too much AV, units can have their movement adjusted so that they do not cross that turn (either reset movement to 0 miles, or change mode from Move to Combat if that will ensure they do not cross).
Subsequent waves can be organized along the same lines to ensure they can cross without shock attack.

7. Begin land bombardment immediately to gauge enemy strength and use up supply.

IMO, if you already have Saigon and/or Hong Kong, there is no particular urgency to take Singers for the port and shipyard. The only pressing need is to free up the LCUs and ships/aircraft you have reducing Singers.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Macclan5)

Post #: 616

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/24/2019 12:56:06 PM

Macclan5

Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline

BB my friend -

Class A advice and something for me to remember on my next run through.

The important part of your response I "think I note" is

IMO, if you already have Saigon and/or Hong Kong, there is no particular urgency to take Singers for the port and shipyard. The only pressing need is to free up the LCUs and ships/aircraft you have reducing Singers.

So you opine going "all in one direction" with perhaps only containment forces to sweep down to Singers ?

Again honestly I am divided in opinion - hence my ask of other followers of Players vs AI

_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 617

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/24/2019 4:50:52 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

BB my friend -

Class A advice and something for me to remember on my next run through.

The important part of your response I "think I note" is

IMO, if you already have Saigon and/or Hong Kong, there is no particular urgency to take Singers for the port and shipyard. The only pressing need is to free up the LCUs and ships/aircraft you have reducing Singers.

So you opine going "all in one direction" with perhaps only containment forces to sweep down to Singers ?

Again honestly I am divided in opinion - hence my ask of other followers of Players vs AI

I would have to know more about the balance of forces on the route to China. If the opposition appeared to be weak and an opportunity to steal a march getting to Canton and HK were there, I would be tempted to put the main forces in that direction and use just enough in Malaya to push the Japanese down the peninsula and then camp at Johore Bharu while reduction of Singers took place. (Wow, there's a long sentence!)
If it looked like there was not going to be any rapid advance to China, I would be more inclined to clean up Singapore and free up troops for the tough grind into China (or maybe an amphib op or two instead).

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Macclan5)

Post #: 618

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/24/2019 5:44:59 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

Basically, hit him where he ain't!

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 619

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/25/2019 9:45:50 AM

traskott

Posts: 1546
Joined: 6/23/2008
From: Valladolid, Spain
Status: offline

How can you deal with japanese raider forces? They are typical on Ironman Scenarios and wreak havoc in my supply lines...

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 620

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/25/2019 3:37:15 PM

jwolf

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: traskott

How can you deal with japanese raider forces? They are typical on Ironman Scenarios and wreak havoc in my supply lines...

I haven't played Ironman -- only AI on hard. But I think the same principles apply. Keys are: naval search and some decent air and naval forces behind the lines. I also use a picket line of subs which is not foolproof but has a good chance of getting triggered by passing raiders. The AI also tends to be predictable in using the same routes for its raiders. That is how I nailed the last of the KB (3 carriers) near Adak after a big raid across the North Pacific in mid-43.

Even with the occasional raider success, you can afford to trade supply ships for their surface fleet.

(in reply to traskott)

Post #: 621

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/26/2019 11:56:10 AM

Macclan5

Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

BB my friend -

Class A advice and something for me to remember on my next run through.

The important part of your response I "think I note" is

IMO, if you already have Saigon and/or Hong Kong, there is no particular urgency to take Singers for the port and shipyard. The only pressing need is to free up the LCUs and ships/aircraft you have reducing Singers.

So you opine going "all in one direction" with perhaps only containment forces to sweep down to Singers ?

Again honestly I am divided in opinion - hence my ask of other followers of Players vs AI

I would have to know more about the balance of forces on the route to China. If the opposition appeared to be weak and an opportunity to steal a march getting to Canton and HK were there, I would be tempted to put the main forces in that direction and use just enough in Malaya to push the Japanese down the peninsula and then camp at Johore Bharu while reduction of Singers took place. (Wow, there's a long sentence!)
If it looked like there was not going to be any rapid advance to China, I would be more inclined to clean up Singapore and free up troops for the tough grind into China (or maybe an amphib op or two instead).

In my experience in two full games (difficulty Historical alternating Hard for period to give the AI a boost)

The AI heavily "stacks and forts" (1) Singapore and (2) Canton / Hong Kong.

In the Singapore instance part of the challenge is they seem to have heavy fortifications down the Malayan coast (Georgetown for example) and combat engineers are scarce ( at least in 43 - 44 ) though the Aussie Engineers are invaluable. "Then" you have to shock crossing the river to Singers as you note. Even after extended reduction by air / sea it takes a 'goodly stack' to sweep them out.

In Canton / HK - the same. Sweeping through French Indo-Chine gives the Allied Player "Victory disease" - the road network makes it quick and major victories roll in. However The AI will (in my experience) consistently try a Chinesse "Wuchow / Kukong" advance north from Canton in 42-44 ! A capable AI player can generally beat it back but the remainders of those IJA forces make Caton / HK a touch nut to crack. Fully surrounding to lock out supply is a challenge"

--

I guess my point / recommendation is ... Newish player verses the AI

"Unless you devote and move a large volume of US Assets to the Burma Theater... it is probably more efficient to concentrate 80% + of forces and especially Combat Engineers to advance along the Bangkok / Saigon / to Hong Kong / to Shanghai axis. More victory points .. more devoted airfield to be developed..that threaten the Japanese."

" Only keep a couple divisions / art / arm to manage down Malayan coast. Use Naval forces to reduce blockade positions and spend extended time reducing Singapore before finally tackling it. By mid 44 late 44 - early 45 more divisions and especially Combat Engineers to arrive to help you finish the job."

_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 622

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/27/2019 8:46:46 PM

Schlussel

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

Wow, I go on vacation for a week and the Canadian delegation completely hijacks my AAR.

Kidding of course, I'm happy to have forumites viewing and commenting

So on vacation we saw Mount Rushmore, and I think my friends to the north would be interested in this little known factoid:

Macclan5:

So far the jury is still out on whether my decision to advance in both Malaya and Indochina was a good one. I think I will reserve final judgement until Singapore Hong Kong and Shanghai are all captured. Saying that, I will comment on my progress so far:

-The Malayan advance has went according to schedule (so far). The large Allied AV concentration has been able to overcome large forts at Singora and Georgetown fairly quickly. The one surprise was the large Japanese concentration near Alor Star. Delays were mostly mitigated by bypassing/surrounding this enemy force. A small Allied group was used to isolate this enemy force, while the rest of the Allied LCUs continued marching southward towards Singapore.
-Th progress in Malaya has allowed the safe execution of British landings in Sumatra.
-The Chinese advance has been slower than expected. While Chinese units are more effective in the attack (versus early war), they still get disrupted easily and have a hard time recovering, when compared to British (and especially American) units. Couple this with the need to garrison captured bases, and the advance in China has bogged down a bit.
-I think if I had diverted more British/American units to the advance in China, I would have been able to advance simultaneously towards Hong Kong and Shanghai. As it stands now, I nearly have Hong Kong, but I have a ways to go to get Shanghai.
-Supply has not been an issue in Malaya, or China. Supply from Colombo and India has stockpiled in Rangoon and has steadily increased over the last 6 months.
-I am anxious to see how the crossing into Singapore goes. I will heed BB Fanboy's sage advice and try to cross smartly, although shock attack results are definitely unpredictable.

I agree Macclan, its a tough decision on how to proceed...but it is a good problem to have, as the Allies were never in a position to advance this far in the actual war. Hopefully my experience along with other AARs will provide some worthwhile info to other Allied commanders who face this dilemma.

My hope is that Shanghai is available to support the Allied assault on the home islands. It seems reasonable, but only time will tell. Thank you all for your advice and questions, it has helped me immensely.

_____________________________

You say we're surrounded?
Excellent!
That means we can attack in any direction.

(in reply to Macclan5)

Post #: 623

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/29/2019 2:06:25 PM

jwolf

Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/3/2013
Status: offline

Miscellaneous advice FWIW:

1. Do everything possible to trap the enemy Malayan army so it does not retreat into the fortress at Singapore. It's well worth taking extra time for this.
2. Chinese units are slow to recover from tough fighting, as you said. But you should have enough good Chinese corps that you can go on the offensive with one group while a second group rests and preps, then switch when the first group is finished with their targets.
3. Be careful of naval operations at or near Shanghai. That is within easy Kamikaze range of Kyushu. They don't seem to attack into a known high concentration of fighters (as with big carrier groups in a hex), but they will sure jump on any perceived easy target.

(in reply to Schlussel)

Post #: 624

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/30/2019 5:48:55 PM

Macclan5

Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schlussel

Wow, I go on vacation for a week and the Canadian delegation completely hijacks my AAR.

So far the jury is still out on whether my decision to advance in both Malaya and Indochina was a good one. I think I will reserve final judgement until Singapore Hong Kong and Shanghai are all captured. Saying that, I will comment on my progress so far:

-The Malayan advance has went according to schedule (so far). The large Allied AV concentration has been able to overcome large forts at Singora and Georgetown fairly quickly. The one surprise was the large Japanese concentration near Alor Star. Delays were mostly mitigated by bypassing/surrounding this enemy force. A small Allied group was used to isolate this enemy force, while the rest of the Allied LCUs continued marching southward towards Singapore.
-Th progress in Malaya has allowed the safe execution of British landings in Sumatra.
-The Chinese advance has been slower than expected. While Chinese units are more effective in the attack (versus early war), they still get disrupted easily and have a hard time recovering, when compared to British (and especially American) units. Couple this with the need to garrison captured bases, and the advance in China has bogged down a bit.
-I think if I had diverted more British/American units to the advance in China, I would have been able to advance simultaneously towards Hong Kong and Shanghai. As it stands now, I nearly have Hong Kong, but I have a ways to go to get Shanghai.
-Supply has not been an issue in Malaya, or China. Supply from Colombo and India has stockpiled in Rangoon and has steadily increased over the last 6 months.
-I am anxious to see how the crossing into Singapore goes. I will heed BB Fanboy's sage advice and try to cross smartly, although shock attack results are definitely unpredictable.

I agree Macclan, its a tough decision on how to proceed...but it is a good problem to have, as the Allies were never in a position to advance this far in the actual war. Hopefully my experience along with other AARs will provide some worthwhile info to other Allied commanders who face this dilemma.

My hope is that Shanghai is available to support the Allied assault on the home islands. It seems reasonable, but only time will tell. Thank you all for your advice and questions, it has helped me immensely.

(1) Let me be a true Canadian ... sorry about that (Hijacking thread)

(2) Yep surprise concentrations around various points. In my experience they still took a lot of AV to beat down and given the date of you game "I think the Combat Engineers" are really only coming on line from the British / American POV. You may have some Aussie CE leading the way and others 'on route"

Still you will need them for Singapore - caution notwithstanding in my opinion.

(3) Yes I am certain you will have Shanghai to support the home island invasion.

In the end you can choose to speed up or slow down given that aim. Yo may have the American Pacific forces invade north east for example - and postpone the south west islands till you have your desired bases in China / Formosa.

However Shanghai will be another AV sapping tough nut to crack in my experience.

See note about the need for combat engineers above :)

And... as you say the 'bog down' speaks the essential question - which way is more efficient.

< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 7/30/2019 5:49:53 PM >

_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

(in reply to Schlussel)

Post #: 625

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/30/2019 5:50:58 PM

Macclan5

Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Miscellaneous advice FWIW:

1. Do everything possible to trap the enemy Malayan army so it does not retreat into the fortress at Singapore. It's well worth taking extra time for this.
2. Chinese units are slow to recover from tough fighting, as you said. But you should have enough good Chinese corps that you can go on the offensive with one group while a second group rests and preps, then switch when the first group is finished with their targets.
3. Be careful of naval operations at or near Shanghai. That is within easy Kamikaze range of Kyushu. They don't seem to attack into a known high concentration of fighters (as with big carrier groups in a hex), but they will sure jump on any perceived easy target.

Very good observations +1

_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

(in reply to jwolf)

Post #: 626

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/30/2019 7:27:51 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

quote:

ORIGINAL: Schlussel

Wow, I go on vacation for a week and the Canadian delegation completely hijacks my AAR.

So far the jury is still out on whether my decision to advance in both Malaya and Indochina was a good one. I think I will reserve final judgement until Singapore Hong Kong and Shanghai are all captured. Saying that, I will comment on my progress so far:

-The Malayan advance has went according to schedule (so far). The large Allied AV concentration has been able to overcome large forts at Singora and Georgetown fairly quickly. The one surprise was the large Japanese concentration near Alor Star. Delays were mostly mitigated by bypassing/surrounding this enemy force. A small Allied group was used to isolate this enemy force, while the rest of the Allied LCUs continued marching southward towards Singapore.
-Th progress in Malaya has allowed the safe execution of British landings in Sumatra.
-The Chinese advance has been slower than expected. While Chinese units are more effective in the attack (versus early war), they still get disrupted easily and have a hard time recovering, when compared to British (and especially American) units. Couple this with the need to garrison captured bases, and the advance in China has bogged down a bit.
-I think if I had diverted more British/American units to the advance in China, I would have been able to advance simultaneously towards Hong Kong and Shanghai. As it stands now, I nearly have Hong Kong, but I have a ways to go to get Shanghai.
-Supply has not been an issue in Malaya, or China. Supply from Colombo and India has stockpiled in Rangoon and has steadily increased over the last 6 months.
-I am anxious to see how the crossing into Singapore goes. I will heed BB Fanboy's sage advice and try to cross smartly, although shock attack results are definitely unpredictable.

I agree Macclan, its a tough decision on how to proceed...but it is a good problem to have, as the Allies were never in a position to advance this far in the actual war. Hopefully my experience along with other AARs will provide some worthwhile info to other Allied commanders who face this dilemma.

My hope is that Shanghai is available to support the Allied assault on the home islands. It seems reasonable, but only time will tell. Thank you all for your advice and questions, it has helped me immensely.

(1) Let me be a true Canadian ... sorry about that (Hijacking thread)

(2) Yep surprise concentrations around various points. In my experience they still took a lot of AV to beat down and given the date of you game "I think the Combat Engineers" are really only coming on line from the British / American POV. You may have some Aussie CE leading the way and others 'on route"

Still you will need them for Singapore - caution notwithstanding in my opinion.

(3) Yes I am certain you will have Shanghai to support the home island invasion.

In the end you can choose to speed up or slow down given that aim. Yo may have the American Pacific forces invade north east for example - and postpone the south west islands till you have your desired bases in China / Formosa.

However Shanghai will be another AV sapping tough nut to crack in my experience.

See note about the need for combat engineers above :)

And... as you say the 'bog down' speaks the essential question - which way is more efficient.

Even though you get some big Combat Eng. units later in the game, there are never enough Combat Engineer squads for sustained combat with them. Use them strategically where they will make a difference, and don't waste them by having them in the first river crossing wave, shock attacking into high forts. Get them across with later waves where no shock attack is triggered, and have them attack with lots of infantry and tanks beside them. I almost never have the Cmbt Engs shock attack, their demolition work requires using cover to get close to the fortifications and attacking only when there is lots of covering fire. Charging across an open area in a shock attack could be bad for the guy carrying HE and detonators ...

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Macclan5)

Post #: 627

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/30/2019 7:37:44 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

I discovered in late '45 that I am using up my combat engineers faster than they are getting produced.

In January '46 I have a plethora of burned out CE units that will never be refilled with replacements.

The production rate is very minimal.

I'm now scrounging to find enough of them to deal with the remaining major siege locales.

Using them wisely is what I have learned from this experience.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 628

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 7/30/2019 7:46:47 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I discovered in late '45 that I am using up my combat engineers faster than they are getting produced.

In January '46 I have a plethora of burned out CE units that will never be refilled with replacements.

The production rate is very minimal.

I'm now scrounging to find enough of them to deal with the remaining major siege locales.

Using them wisely is what I have learned from this experience.

Are you in a position to withdraw some units and have their squads go to the pools?

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 629

RE: Back for the First Time – Allied AAR vs. AI - War i... - 8/4/2019 1:21:05 AM

Schlussel

Posts: 384
Joined: 5/21/2007
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

Appreciate all the comments and suggestions from the forumites, all great stuff.

quote:

(1) Let me be a true Canadian ... sorry about that (Hijacking thread)

(2) Yep surprise concentrations around various points. In my experience they still took a lot of AV to beat down and given the date of you game "I think the Combat Engineers" are really only coming on line from the British / American POV. You may have some Aussie CE leading the way and others 'on route"

Still you will need them for Singapore - caution notwithstanding in my opinion.

(3) Yes I am certain you will have Shanghai to support the home island invasion.

In the end you can choose to speed up or slow down given that aim. Yo may have the American Pacific forces invade north east for example - and postpone the south west islands till you have your desired bases in China / Formosa.

However Shanghai will be another AV sapping tough nut to crack in my experience.

See note about the need for combat engineers above :)

And... as you say the 'bog down' speaks the essential question - which way is more efficient.

(1) Appreciate that Maccaln5, I wouldn't expect anything less from a bona fide Canadian.

(2) Yes those surprise concentrations can be quite a hindrance, however (as jwolf stated) if they can be cut off from Singapore, it should be worth the effort. I will find out when I reach Singapore

(3) I will definitely heed your advice in Shanghai. Right now it is cut off from land supply, and the silent service is doing its best to prevent any sea-going reinforcement. Lack of supply was the key in taking down Canton, and I hope to repeat the strategy in Shanghai.

Time will determine the answer to your efficiency question. The more Hans, jwolf, BBFanboy, and you (all people whos advice I hold in high regard) talk about Singapore, the more I feel you may be right, and the risks of making the assault across the channel may outweigh the rewards. Hans and BB Fanboy have warned me multiple times of the weakness of the British pools, and I would hate to gut them taking Singapore (even with its large VP value). If the garrison there is too large, I may halt before making said assault, but for now the Allies are heading toward Singapore "full steam ahead".