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The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniversary... - 8/7/2019 5:12:11 PM   
Macclan5


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Mostly directed to Allied Players.

What are some good names for Allied Carriers ? Suggestions ?

i.e. Replacing Lexington II Yorktown II Hornet II assuming you choose to do so ?

I have used American Revolutionary War Battles as a previous theme

(i) Ticonderoga
(ii) Monmouth
(iii) Waxhaws

Once past Lexington / Saratoga / Cowpens / Bunker Hill - all the good names are kinda gone.

"Germantown" "Harlem Heights" "Quebec" "Moore's Creek Bridge" don't appeal to me.

Was there an actual nomenclature adopted for Enterprise / Hornet / Wasp that I have failed to read about (or forgotten ) ? I do know Enterprise is a storied ship name uncertain of the others.

I recall one thread / AAR where the Allied Commander renamed all incoming Carriers Soryu or some such thing - a little маскировка

But I was trying to come up with easier names based on a USN tradition.





_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.
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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 5:19:34 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

Mostly directed to Allied Players.

What are some good names for Allied Carriers ? Suggestions ?

i.e. Replacing Lexington II Yorktown II Hornet II assuming you choose to do so ?

I have used American Revolutionary War Battles as a previous theme

(i) Ticonderoga
(ii) Monmouth
(iii) Waxhaws

Once past Lexington / Saratoga / Cowpens / Bunker Hill - all the good names are kinda gone.

"Germantown" "Harlem Heights" "Quebec" "Moore's Creek Bridge" don't appeal to me.

Was there an actual nomenclature adopted for Enterprise / Hornet / Wasp that I have failed to read about (or forgotten ) ? I do know Enterprise is a storied ship name uncertain of the others.

I recall one thread / AAR where the Allied Commander renamed all incoming Carriers Soryu or some such thing - a little маскировка

But I was trying to come up with easier names based on a USN tradition.






Princeton (actual CVL), Trenton, Monmouth, Valley Forge, Brandywine; I'd have to do some research to come up with more.

(in reply to Macclan5)
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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 5:24:56 PM   
zuluhour


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I also like Ticonderoga, Concord, Lincoln, Grant, (never thought of Valley Forge, like it!) Green Mountain

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 5:41:50 PM   
pbiggar


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I believe the Ticonderoga arrives in early 1944 and was the first of "long hulled" Essex class CV's so you might create a problem if you reused that name. Personally, I like to reuse the names.
Long live the WaspII!

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 5:49:10 PM   
sstevens06


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In my current game Allies vs. AI the original Hornet and Wasp managed to survive until late Nov. 1943. I renamed their replacements as:

Hornet II = Valley Forge
Wasp II = Constellation

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 5:54:12 PM   
fcooke

 

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The Enterprise, Hornet and Wasp are named after some of the very first ships in the US Navy (Revolutionary war). Very storied ships. The Essex falls into this category as well. I might take a walk to the bookcase and see what other likely candidates might be.

(in reply to sstevens06)
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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 6:15:27 PM   
rustysi


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In actuality all these vessels had previous names, which were then changed for those which were lost. One even had its original name on the keel plate, which is done (or was) for all U.S. ships. I think it was too far along to change the keel plate name.

_____________________________

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 6:17:43 PM   
Macclan5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

The Enterprise, Hornet and Wasp are named after some of the very first ships in the US Navy (Revolutionary war). Very storied ships. The Essex falls into this category as well. I might take a walk to the bookcase and see what other likely candidates might be.


That is the piece I did not fully realize or recall.

Enterprise yes... Hornet Wasp Essex I did not seem to have realized

Now I need to wiki US revolutionary warships and ignore Barbary Coast :)

_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 6:18:37 PM   
Lovejoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

Mostly directed to Allied Players.

What are some good names for Allied Carriers ? Suggestions ?

i.e. Replacing Lexington II Yorktown II Hornet II assuming you choose to do so ?

I have used American Revolutionary War Battles as a previous theme

(i) Ticonderoga
(ii) Monmouth
(iii) Waxhaws

Once past Lexington / Saratoga / Cowpens / Bunker Hill - all the good names are kinda gone.

"Germantown" "Harlem Heights" "Quebec" "Moore's Creek Bridge" don't appeal to me.

Was there an actual nomenclature adopted for Enterprise / Hornet / Wasp that I have failed to read about (or forgotten ) ? I do know Enterprise is a storied ship name uncertain of the others.

But I was trying to come up with easier names based on a USN tradition.



I recommend:

I. Famous/Prominent US warships in naval history

Enterprise, Hornet, and Wasp were all previously used for warships in the Continental Navy during the Revolution, though I can't say with any certainty if that's why they were picked. Some of the later ships with those names had distinguished careers, which might have helped in name selection. In 1799, USS Enterprise (a ship of 14 guns) fired the first American shots of the Barbary War. The USS Hornet and USS Wasp were both sloops of war in War of 1812. The Wasp captured HMS Frolic (before being promptly captured by British 74 gun ship-of the-line) and the Hornet sank HMS Peacock in a short and bloody action.

Essex and Kearsarge were named after famous American warships from the War of 1812 and the Civil War.

I've always been partial to the First Six Frigates (minus Constitution of course), so United States, President, Chesapeake (to break the curse surrounding her name), Congress, and Constellation. You could also use Macedonian, Java, Gurriere and Insurgent , which were all names of foreign warships defeated by US frigates in single-ship duels.

II. Major Battles from American history

From the Revolution: Stony Point, Guilford Courthouse, King's Mountain, Sullivan's Island, Monmouth Courthouse, and Flamborough Head (might be too long)

From Northwest Indian War and War of 1812: Fallen Timbers, Tippecanoe, Lundy's Lane, Chippewa and Fort McHenry

Mexican-American War: Cerro Gordo, Beuna Vista, and Monterrey

Civil War: Stones River, Shiloh, Missionary Ridge, Malvern Hill, and Appomattox




< Message edited by Lovejoy -- 8/7/2019 6:24:29 PM >

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 6:32:37 PM   
Macclan5


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Looked it up at Wikipedia.. assuming its accurate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ships_of_the_Continental_Navy

New tactic suggested for Allied PBEM players

Rename all potential Carriers "USS Surprise"

That should put some fear of ambiguity in your opponent

Surprise, the first American naval ship of the name, was a sloop that the Continental Navy purchased in 1777


< Message edited by Macclan5 -- 8/7/2019 6:36:18 PM >


_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 6:35:52 PM   
Macclan5


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Thanks Lovejoy...

Very strong suggestions in there... Congress - Constellation - Chesapeake

Simpler and easy to input.

Flamborough Head not so much though I did use plain Flamborough last game.

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A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 6:38:16 PM   
Gridley380


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FWIW, I did an alternate history once (starting pre-war), and took the liberty of giving all the US fleet carriers proper names; they all got named after important battles (something of a narrow squeeze since Lexington and Saratoga were named before they were even carriers... but the names work, so...).

Lexington
Saratoga
Yorktown
Ticonderoga
Bunker Hill
Nassau
Long Island
Princeton
Oriskany
Stanwix
Bennington
Monmouth

Then I switched to the Civil War:

Antietam
Gettysburg
Chickamauga
Chancellorsville
Shiloh
Bull Run
Manassas
Fredericksburg
Vicksburg
Cold Harbor
Mobile Bay
Petersburg
Hampton Roads
Harpers Ferry
Brandy Station
Lynchburg
Appomattox
Sumter

(in reply to Macclan5)
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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 6:40:15 PM   
rustysi


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There were battles on some of the lakes during both the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812. Lake Champlain and Lake Erie come to mind. IIRC there was a U.S. vessel named for Champlain. Don't know about Erie. Could use some of the vessel names from those battles.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Macclan5)
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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 6:45:02 PM   
fcooke

 

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Couldn't find the book (a bit unorganized after recent move). In any case the 'original six' frigates names have generally been re-used. The six were:

Constitution - can't use her as she was still in commission in WW2
Constellation - fair game as someone else already pointed out
United States - Hasn't been one since the frigate, though the aborted first super carrier was to be so named. Seems to be an aversion to using the countries name on ships due to the morale implications if sunk. Germany renamed one of her pocket battleships for just this reason.
Congress - fair game - there have been a number over the years - one of which was destroyed by the Merrimac in Hampton roads during the civil war.
President - captured during the war of 1812 - the USN does not seem to re-use names of captured ships.
Chesapeake - effectively captured in the pseudo was with the royal navy before the war of 1812, but the Royal Navy let her go. Captured a 2nd time during the war of 1812. No ships named such since.

USS Alliance might be another good name.

(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 6:45:25 PM   
Gridley380


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Another side note: some shipbuilding notes I have list the original names for several ships:

CV-10 (became Yorktown II) was Bon Homme Richard
CV-12 (became Hornet II) was Kearsarge
CV-16 (became Lexington II) was Cabot
CV-18 (became Wasp II) was Oriskany
CV-19 (became Hancock) was Ticonderoga
CV-32 (became Leyte) was Crown Point
CV-37 (became Princeton II) was Valley Forge

As a bonus, CVE-57 was originally named the Coral Sea, but her name was changed to Anzio in order to 'free up' that name for CVB-43.
Likewise CVE-63 (originally Midway) was renamed St. Lo (to free up that name for CVB-41)... and was sunk 40 days later off Samar.

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 6:47:28 PM   
Gridley380


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

There were battles on some of the lakes during both the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812. Lake Champlain and Lake Erie come to mind. IIRC there was a U.S. vessel named for Champlain. Don't know about Erie. Could use some of the vessel names from those battles.


USS Erie (PG-50) was a sister to USS Charleston, a beloved ship of mine for her excellent range and general escort-iness in the game. Erie was sunk in late 1942 in the Caribbean.

USS Lake Champlain was CV-39.

(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 7:05:42 PM   
spence

 

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quote:

The Enterprise, Hornet and Wasp are named after some of the very first ships in the US Navy (Revolutionary war). Very storied ships. The Essex falls into this category as well. I might take a walk to the bookcase and see what other likely candidates might be.


Then there should be a USS Ranger - IIRC it was one of the first frigates of the Continental Navy and it later became the name of a US aircraft carrier. Oops forgot about the one in the Atlantic (CV-4).

< Message edited by spence -- 8/7/2019 7:07:16 PM >

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 7:11:24 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

Looked it up at Wikipedia.. assuming its accurate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Ships_of_the_Continental_Navy

New tactic suggested for Allied PBEM players

Rename all potential Carriers "USS Surprise"

That should put some fear of ambiguity in your opponent

Surprise, the first American naval ship of the name, was a sloop that the Continental Navy purchased in 1777



Along the same line as Shangri La. You'll have to Wiki or Google the back story, if you don't know it.

(in reply to Macclan5)
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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 7:19:45 PM   
Gridley380


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

The Enterprise, Hornet and Wasp are named after some of the very first ships in the US Navy (Revolutionary war). Very storied ships. The Essex falls into this category as well. I might take a walk to the bookcase and see what other likely candidates might be.


Then there should be a USS Ranger - IIRC it was one of the first frigates of the Continental Navy and it later became the name of a US aircraft carrier. Oops forgot about the one in the Atlantic (CV-4).


Sorry, pet peeve: while she isn't modeled in stock, USS Ranger (CV-4) *did* serve in the Pacific. From DANFS:

"On 11 July 1944 she departed Norfolk, transited the Panama Canal 5 days later, and embarked several hundred Army passengers at Balboa for transportation to San Diego, arriving there 25 July.

After embarking the men and aircraft of Night Fighting Squadron 102 and nearly a thousand marines, she sailed for Hawaiian waters 28 July, reaching Pearl Harbor 3 August. During the next 3 months she conducted night carrier training operations out of Pearl Harbor.

Ranger departed Pearl Harbor 18 October to train pilots for combat duty. Operating out of San Diego under Commander, Fleet Air, Alameda, she continued training air groups and squadrons along the California coast throughout the remainder of the war."

Navsource lists her decorations as including the Asiatic-Pacific Campaign Medal.

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 8:51:09 PM   
geofflambert


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It's the Brits who come up with the worst names, but even the Star Trek writers come up with doozies. The Reliant? What's that supposed to mean? Looks like a synonym for dependent.

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 8:54:30 PM   
geofflambert


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How's this for a UK ship? The Irreducible.

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 9:03:56 PM   
Lovejoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

Thanks Lovejoy...

Very strong suggestions in there... Congress - Constellation - Chesapeake

Simpler and easy to input.

Flamborough Head not so much though I did use plain Flamborough last game.


Sorry for droning on for as long as I did.

Also a few more suggestions: Santiago Bay, Manila Bay, and San Juan Hill from the Spanish-American War

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 9:22:45 PM   
RangerJoe


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How about Sugar Point or Leech Lake? The 3rd Infantry is the "Old Guard" that is in the Washington DC area but at the time was stationed at Fort Snelling MN.

quote:


Battle of Sugar Point
Date October 5, 1898
Location Leech Lake, Minnesota
Result Chippewa victory

The Battle of Sugar Point, or the Battle of Leech Lake, was fought on October 5, 1898 between the 3rd U.S. Infantry and members of the Pillager Band of Chippewa Indians in a failed attempt to apprehend Pillager Ojibwe Bugonaygeshig ("Old Bug" or "Hole-In-The-Day"), as the result of a dispute with Indian Service officials on the Leech Lake Reservation in Cass County, Minnesota.

Often referred to as "the last Indian Uprising in the United States", the engagement is also the first battle to be fought in the Northwest United States since the Winnebago War in 1827. It is considered to be the last battle fought between Native Americans and the U.S. Army.

The last Medal of Honor issued during the Indian Wars was awarded to Private Oscar Burkard of the 3rd US Infantry Regiment.


https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sugar_Point

quote:

The Battle of Sugar Point in 1898 between U.S. Federal troops and the resident Chippewa (Ojibwe) Indians was the last true Indian battle in the United States. This is largely ignored in history, quite likely because the Indians won the battle.


https://www.chaseonthelake.com/activities/explore/leech-lake/

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 9:33:14 PM   
fcooke

 

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Never understood the 'Ranger is too slow for the Pacific' logic. She and Wasp had the same speed and they were limited to the speed of the fast BBs in any case. End of 42 the USN could use every CV available. Anyone have better insight on this? Less belt armor than Wasp, but at the end of the day belt armor ended up not really mattering. anti-torp protection did, as the Wasp learned. And deck armor as well. Curious. Sort of like why Hellcats were generally not used on CVEs. Avengers were much bigger and heavier yet they operated from the CVEs.

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 9:57:33 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

It's the Brits who come up with the worst names, but even the Star Trek writers come up with doozies. The Reliant? What's that supposed to mean? Looks like a synonym for dependent.


You write Reliant, and I hear Leonard Nimoy's Spock in my head "Reliant?"

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 10:27:37 PM   
RangerJoe


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The shorter flight deck and the lower speeds of the CVEs made the Hellcar marginal.

quote:

Grumman's TBF Avenger and F4F-4 Wildcat were to equip the escort carriers, as their flight decks were considered marginal for the heavier F6F Hellcat. But increased demands on Grumman for the Hellcat and newer designs led to an agreement with auto maker General Motors to take over production of the Avenger and Wildcat.


http://www.rwebs.net/dispatch/output.asp?ArticleID=22

also:

quote:



The FM-2 vs. the Zero

On board the Gambier Bay, Ensign Joe McGraw of Composite Squadron 10 (VC-10) raced for his FM-2 Wildcat as the battleships Yamato, Nagato, Kongo and Haruna and heavy cruisers Kumano, Suzuya, Chikuma, Tone, Haguro and Chokai opened fire with 8-inch to 18-inch guns. His story is excerpted from Barret Tillman's Wildcat Aces of World War 2, which is reviewed later in this issue:

"I got off as the last fighter, I think, as I had to dodge a big hole on the forward port corner of the deck just as Capt. Viewig was throwing the ship into a turn."

Armed with small bombs, 0.50 caliber machine guns and 5-inch rockets, the Wildcats and Avengers attacked the Japanese ships, many FM-2 pilots making strafing runs on the bridges of the battleships. Planes from Taffy 1 and 2 plus those from land bases joined the attack, the carriers of Taffy 1 and 2 landing and rearming the planes as quickly as possible. On McGraw's third launch, his flight was vectored to attack a number of Val dive bombers and Zero fighters. He describes his FM-2's combat with a well-flown A6M5 Zero:

"The leader of the Zeros was good and he hit our division leader in the engine, putting him in the water (he was later picked up). As I had pulled up so hard and steep, I lost my wingman, but avoided the Zeros as they dove by." McGraw described how he got in position to shot down the Zero leader's wingman, and described what happened next:

"That either surprised or made the Zero lead really mad, because he did the tightest turn I've ever seen to try to get on me. Bit I also pulled up into a tight climbing left turn into him, and he missed his shot behind me. The FM-2's tight turn must have surprised him because I got around quickly on him into a head-on, and put a fast burst into his engine. That really made him mad, because he quickly pulled into me in what I thought was an attempt to ram. I had also pulled up hard to avoid him; it was a close thing."

McGraw last saw the Zero smoking heavily and diving for the clouds. He continued:

"I had the feeling he was an old hand and had expected the old Wildcats to be easy prey, so he was surprised and let his temper get the better of him – he probably didn't know about the much-improved FM-2 version. I don't know what happened to him, but with his engine shot up I don't suppose he made it back to base." By dark, McGraw had flown 11 hours in three missions and had to land aboard Manila Bay, his own ship, Gambier Bay, having been sunk by gun fire.


The FM-2 was lighter and faster than the F4F-4 with more ammo for the 4 guns. It also had a more powerful engine.

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 10:32:50 PM   
geofflambert


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If you could name a ship the Sand Creek, what ship would that be?

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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 10:41:55 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

If you could name a ship the Sand Creek, what ship would that be?


A Q ship!

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― Julia Child


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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 11:46:47 PM   
dcpollay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

It's the Brits who come up with the worst names, but even the Star Trek writers come up with doozies. The Reliant? What's that supposed to mean? Looks like a synonym for dependent.


Ahh, the British have fine names:

Incompetent
Incontinent
Incredulous
Inconsolable
Impertinent
Impetuous

If you want to go Star Trek, how about:
Excelsior
Excalibur


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RE: The 1001 Carrier Deployment Question / 10th anniver... - 8/7/2019 11:54:32 PM   
jdsrae


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I picked mine from some of the original names that didn’t make it to the commissioning day and some other USN carriers that arrive just after the war.
Coral Sea, Reprisal, Valley Forge, Oriskany.

Off on a tangent, I did similar for cruiser IIs:
CAs Albany, Rochester, Kansas City
CLs New Haven, Huntington, Wilmington, Buffalo

For DDs, I named them after friends and family.
I just did a filter for “II” in my excel spreadsheet and there are 23 x DD to possibly rename.
There are also 4 x SS, about 10 xAK and one TK “II”

_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 30
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