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Civilians - 9/21/2019 4:13:47 AM

lancer

Posts: 2963
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline

Hi,

One related thought (going off the fake units thread) is that of the high risk of civilian casualties in urban environments. Perhaps you could have an indication that there is a unit present in a building. With further observation it could resolve into a military unit or a neutral one. Is it a threat? Can I afford to wait to find out? Should I order artillery down on that position?

The game portrays high intensity cold war combat in heavily populated environments. The presence of civilians is under represented, especially in buildings where they are most likely to be found. The player can, at present, blast away at will with little fear of causing civilian casualties as they are assumed to have mostly left the area (bit of an ask in a fast moving cold war scenario with clogged roads). Collateral damage issue is becoming a bigger and bigger deal, especially in the west and is now a serious consideration in any modern urban conflict.

Whether that's something you'd want to model in-game is best left to your judgement but it'd certainly make for a more realistic battlefield and give the player another layer to their decisions to take into account.

It'd also allow scope for a political dimension to your campaign structure. Cause too many civilian casualties, as the NATO forces and you may find yourself relieved of command. If the intention is to move the game in the direction of more modern conflicts it may well be a necessity to have something like this in place. If you wanted to get fancy you could have a game option that provides a certain civilian density on the battlefield, anywhere from 'none' to 'lots'.

'Lots' could, perhaps, encompass traffic jams from escaping civilians caught up in the conflict that block a road or a bridge. Or a steady stream of mobile neutral units spawning from an urban centre and heading down the main roads to safey.

Implementation would be, I'm guessing, straightforward as you've already got the ingredients baked in. All that you'd need is some feedback on civilian casualties, both at the time (a simple message) and in the end game summary. If you moved a unit into a building with neutral units present they could automatically disappear down into the basement.

It'd also be a human player only issue as everybody knows that The Terminator didn't care.

Cheers,
Plugger

< Message edited by lancer -- 9/21/2019 4:15:06 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Civilians - 9/21/2019 10:05:32 PM

exsonic01

Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/26/2016
From: Somewhere deep in appalachian valley in PA
Status: offline

I greatly support this post. Penalty to victory point (or political aspect) will force players (and AI) to consider another strategic layer for any fire support mission. Chemical and tactical nuke should also bring some negative modifier to victory point.

Back in beta forum, I also suggested something like new game victory decision objective using civilians, such as finish civilian evacuation within limited time, or capture 3 VPs in the city with civilian casualty less than specific point number. Those will make more interesting eventually.

Thing like this would require good civilian AI so I'm not sure if we could see this in near future, but might be considerable for further future plan.

(in reply to lancer)

Post #: 2

RE: Civilians - 9/22/2019 12:51:23 PM

nikolas93TS

Posts: 619
Joined: 2/24/2017
Status: offline

Well, since this is not a priority feature, maybe it can be implemented in future with scripted AI, so no need for particularly advanced civilian AI. Although I don't think they would require a lot of specific behaviors other than what is already in game.

Also, I doubt someone would care that much about civilians in classic "World War III gone hot" scenario, but it could be an interesting and rarely modelled feature for some historical conflicts.

(in reply to exsonic01)

Post #: 3

RE: Civilians - 9/22/2019 5:52:09 PM

exsonic01

Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/26/2016
From: Somewhere deep in appalachian valley in PA
Status: offline

quote:

Although I don't think they would require a lot of specific behaviors other than what is already in game.

That sounds great, if civilian AI can be abstracted with current AI, then it would be easier to implement!

quote:

Also, I doubt someone would care that much about civilians in classic "World War III gone hot" scenario, but it could be an interesting and rarely modelled feature for some historical conflicts.

Hmm as far as I know all sides wanted to reduce collateral damage as much as they can. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Things are different between 60~70s and 80s+. When nuke was regarded as essential part of WW3 like 60s and 70s, your comment might be correct. But from 80s, western nations get some confidence of conventional forces and from that point their OP is changed to suppress the usage of NBC weapons, and their attitude towards "collateral damage" is changed. I think that causes NATO commanders to consider civilian damage more seriously and I think this was kinda similar with PACT, wasn't it?

Anyway, amount of civilian can be varied even in current version, so introducing such civilian AI and "run for your life" civilian unit movement in game would be no problem. If anyone don't want to play with civilian, he or she can set 0 civilian condition in setting menu. But I'm advocate of civilian options, as this can become new victory condition and game mode, which will make game more interesting. Adding additional strategic layer of political consideration would make AB more realistic as well.

< Message edited by exsonic01 -- 9/22/2019 5:54:18 PM >

(in reply to nikolas93TS)

Post #: 4

RE: Civilians - 2/9/2020 8:52:28 PM

CSO_Talorgan