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RE: How to fix the game. - 10/4/2019 5:08:25 AM

chuckfourth

Posts: 222
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline

Red Lancer
Of course you indulge yourself with a personal slur against me, typical for this low brow forum, But for your part, considering that you are quite the map maker, is it that hard to get the Baltic states boundary correct on the map? or to return your slur, maybe you like it just the way it is because it favors the Soviet player?
Chaos45 you are embarrassing yourself same as Hanny does. Hanny is willing to just make stuff up, but I think in your defense you are just a bit careless and badly informed but don't realize it.
Did you bother to read the link I supplied on German long distance truck transport? answer no. but you seem to know all about the subject.
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=214721&start=15
You have the cheek to tell me I don't understand the German trucks/trucking situation.
You said about German trucks
"these are small often small production run trucks or light trucks in effect"
WRONG
from the link above that you didn't need to read because you already know all there is to know I guess
"Regiment 602 had mainly four-ton trucks with four-ton trailers"
So one of the three GTR regiments consisted of four ton trucks with 4 ton trailers. An 8-10 man infantry unit doesn't weigh 8 tons.
and
In 1939 the Germans had
"LKW: 442,036 plus 82,077 semi-trailers." LKW is the Heavy truck.
The thousands of British trucks captured at Dunkirk were perfectly serviceable in Russia as were the German vehicles. Yes the French vehicles were less robust but worked OK until the winter.
This forum is infested with people that just keep on coughing up "facts" that are made up, irrelevant or don't apply in the first 3 weeks of the campaign. And repeating how I don't know anything about supply over and over and over. I've supplied a set of references that point the way to a better supply system. That experts like you and Hanny don't even bother to read.
I've forgotten more about logistics than the puffed up little Napoleans in this forum ever knew.
Shalkai spare me the character analysis please, Look the game is clearly bias. The Baltic is treated like Russia but had a much better road system and didn't have any partisans. Ignored in the game. And has had its borders adjusted to favor the Soviets. Supply is designed to stop the German panzer corps, ALL of them, dead in their tracks on turn 3. Anybody with half a brain can see that isn't historical. HQ supply buildup is a joke. I bet there are very few German players in the game because like me a lot of potential German players see how bias the game is and don't like it. and I bet the game loses a lot of Russian players because they don't like the taste of getting the odds stacked in their favor, that's cheating. The reason you have a 'consensus' in the forum is because a bias game like this only attracts a certain type of player and you can gauge the quality of those cowardly bullies from their posts.
And please notice that when you ask a direct question about whatever bogus claim they have made they disappear into the ether, And when I make a point that is untouchably correct its just ignored, never acknowledged. Baltic boundary a case in point. I guess they are just waiting for it all to blow over and get back to bias business.

(in reply to Shalkai)

Post #: 121

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/4/2019 6:10:09 AM

RedLancer

Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline

Which map? I don't recall posting a view of the WitE2 map covering the Baltic States. The WitE map and the WitE2 map not only are created differently by the game engine but also use a different map projection. If I remember correctly if you measure from Leningrad to Rostov there is several hexes difference. For the record any hex map is never perfect as you have to distort to round up or down to the hex size. This means rivers can be moved over 5 miles in the WitE2 map.

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 122

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/4/2019 8:46:11 AM

xhoel

Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

The Baltic is treated like Russia but had a much better road system and didn't have any partisans. Ignored in the game. And has had its borders adjusted to favor the Soviets.

It isn't. Rail conversion in the Baltics is much faster. Partisans in the Baltic are also rarer. Read the manual on both those points. The WitE map is distorted but you cannot simply claim that this was done to favor the Soviets. By that same logic the WitE2 map favors the Soviets since the distance to Moscow is larger in comparison to WitE. Don't make claims that you can't back up. It doesn't help your points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

Supply is designed to stop the German panzer corps, ALL of them, dead in their tracks on turn 3. Anybody with half a brain can see that isn't historical.

Nice way to call everyone who doesn't agree with you stupid. Tell me how is it logical for a Panzer Corps that has been on the move/fighting for 2 full weeks and is operating far from depots to have full movement and full fuel?

quote:

I bet there are very few German players in the game because like me a lot of potential German players see how bias the game is and don't like it. and I bet the game loses a lot of Russian players because they don't like the taste of getting the odds stacked in their favor, that's cheating.

Actually the game is doing great and there are plenty of people on both sides who have spent thousands and thousands of hours in the game. You would lose both of those bets. The game isn't biased and is actually quite balanced. Maybe you should try playing it a bit and actually figure stuff out before coming here and making all these generalized statements.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth
The reason you have a 'consensus' in the forum is because a bias game like this only attracts a certain type of player and you can gauge the quality of those cowardly bullies from their posts.

Ah more generalizations and calling everyone a coward and a bully. Lovely. You sure know how to make your case.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth
I guess they are just waiting for it all to blow over and get back to bias business.

Yup, that's what we talked about yesterday at the monthly "Bias meeting". We were all saying how smart your points are and how you have us with our backs against the wall so we are praying for this to blow over so we can continue the good bias business. Revenue has gone down quite a bit since you started posting and enlightning all the players.

Honestly mate just stop embarrassing yourself anymore. Stop with all the name calling and get the hint: Neither morvael (current dev on WitE) nor the devs of WitE2 are going to change the system because you want to.

To everyone else: There is no debate to be had here. chuckfourth is 100% sure that he knows best and everyone else has no clue what they are talking about. And now that he can't have his way, he is resorting to calling everyone ignorant and making generalized statements about the whole player base.

He has done it before as you can see here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4332182&mpage=1&key=%26%2365533%3B
It doesn't matter how good your argument is, or how good your sources are or how knowledgeble you are about the Eastern Front. He will ignore all of those and keep pushing his agenda.

Simply stop posting and keeping this thread alive.

< Message edited by xhoel -- 10/4/2019 8:48:06 AM >

_____________________________

AAR WITW: Gotterdammerung 43-45
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4490035
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WitE 2 Tester and Test Coordinator

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 123

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/4/2019 9:49:52 AM

Hanny

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
Did you bother to read the link I supplied on German long distance truck transport? answer no. but you seem to know all about the subject.
https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=214721&start=15
You have the cheek to tell me I don't understand the German trucks/trucking situation.
You said about German trucks
these are small often small production run trucks or light trucks in effect
WRONG
from the link above that you didn't need to read because you already know all there is to know I guess
Regiment 602 had mainly four-ton trucks with four-ton trailers

Nope he was correct, as is the link you used, which reefers to what he said. He unlike you has a working knowledge of the topic. The other 2 regiments consisted of civilian commercial designs and drew on civilian existing vehicles in wartime to expand their numbers.

Its again clear you are ignorant and incompetent and numerate, and you have no read/understood the link. Or the point he made about 131 differently manufactured trucks, yielding over 1000 different models of trucks in cerise in 41, and that he is correct, he is broadly referring to the schell program which sought to increase motorisation of the military with standardised equipment. Which is also information presented in the link/s you gave but have not read it or not understood it.

https://www.timocom.co.uk/lexicon/The-transport-lexicon/Truck%20(German:%20LKW) LK is not a heavy truck, it is any truck, afterwards it has a t for tonns and its the t that determines if it is heavy/medium/light.

National stock of all truck types in 1939 450,641 ( note this is the entire German military/civilian truck park)

August 1939 to May 41 German truck production under the schell vehicle program: ( Note German trucks all have a Filarm number which is the acepted for mil service model number, there were by 1941 131 different models accepted for service, ie 131 variants from a hugue number of different companies)
3/4 t or less: 41,176
1.5 t: 13,752
2.5-3 t: 53,965
over 3 t: 5,672

Total accepted for service:114565, of which over 3 t made up 5% and was largely concentrated in the GTR, which were designed for good road use and to haul large bulk consumables. Of interest GTR Reg 602, lost 50% of its 2200 MT in the polish campaign,ie 10% a week, when exposed to inferior dirt roads use, as opposed to use of good all weather roads for which they were designed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
So one of the three GTR regiments consisted of four ton trucks with 4 ton trailers. An 8-10 man infantry unit doesn't weigh 8 tons.
and

If you had a functioning knowledge of the subject ( bothered to read you own link that says there were over a 1000 different models in service) you would have noticed that men were transported in light/medium trucks, while the heavy GTR never carried manpower only bulk consumables, and its the 95% of trucks, in over a 000 different makes/models, grouped into 131 classes of military use, he was referring to

In 1939 the Germans had
LKW: 442,036 plus 82,077 semi-trailers. LKW is the Heavy truck.

Nope LKW is any truck, of any tonnage. You link, using USSBS and a book, both make clear thats the total truck park of the nation. You then deliberately lie and hope no one is paying attention.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 10/4/2019 10:03:01 AM >

(in reply to Shalkai)

Post #: 124

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/4/2019 9:58:09 AM

Hanny

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

Nice way to call everyone who doesn't agree with you stupid.

Even the links he uses do not agree with what he posts

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 125

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/4/2019 9:59:47 AM

weinsoldner

Posts: 152
Joined: 5/13/2017
From: Netherlands
Status: offline

WITE is allready a good game but could we please go back to feedback that helps this game even get better and just stop with ALL the name calling etc. That helps nobody!

(in reply to Hanny)

Post #: 126

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/4/2019 11:41:08 AM

morvael

Posts: 11762
Joined: 9/8/2006
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: weinsoldner

WITE is allready a good game but could we please go back to feedback that helps this game even get better and just stop with ALL the name calling etc. That helps nobody!

That's not how WitE forum rolls

< Message edited by morvael -- 10/4/2019 3:04:17 PM >

(in reply to weinsoldner)

Post #: 127

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/4/2019 2:53:49 PM

joelmar

Posts: 1023
Joined: 3/16/2019
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvael

That's now how WitE forum rolls

Pop-corn sellers make a lot of money with us that's for sure!

_____________________________

"The closer you get to the meaning, the sooner you'll know that you're dreamin'" -Dio

(in reply to morvael)

Post #: 128

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/4/2019 10:38:58 PM

chuckfourth

Posts: 222
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline

Red lancer you have a very clear understanding of what I will think of WITE2 but apparently don't read my posts, here is what I already posted about the Baltic boundary again.
"Narva is incorrectly excluded, the line between Vilnius and Daugavpils is straight not bent into the Baltic, From Vilnius the boundary runs west should be southwest. Vilnius and Daugavpils are about 3 hexes in from the border not on it. All in all the Baltic looses about 100 hexes of its area. "
Clearly not a map projection error, just check the prewar Baltic bounties on any reputable map you will see how wrong your boundaries are.

xhoel I was hoping for better from you but you leave me disappointed, some points for you.
Rail Conversion in the Baltics is one third faster. It remains about half what it was historically, justified with the unlimited capacity argument which isn't a justification because the supply is severely limited once it leaves the rail.
Partisans in the Baltic were nonexistent, not rarer. You show me some evidence of partisan activity in the Baltic please.
My claim about the Baltic map boundary is backed up by looking at any prewar Baltic boundary. The current boundary gives about 100 Baltic hexes to the Soviets. The discrepancy is way too big to be explained by a distorted map. The border can be out by up to 10 hexes, not one.
Alright you make exactly the same mistake as most people here. you don't read my posts. You said
"Panzer Corps that has been on the move/fighting for 2 full weeks"
My point is that the panzer corps has NOT been fighting forward just moving forward.
I break the front with infantry, I then move the panzers forward without fighting any Russians I go around them, I then run them forward again in the second week, Again avoiding contact with any Russians. NO FIGHTING FOR THE PANZER CORPS. But at the start of week 3 the Panzer corps is out of supply. Across the entire front, everywhere, for a whole week, ridiculous. Ammunition is about one third of supply tonnage so in this "no fighting" scenario panzer corps supply requirements are about one third less, probably more like half, than if they were fighting forward.
I never asked for full anything, I am just pointing out that the current situation clearly underestimates German supply capabilities.
That's right I have done it before, I already pointed out this problem one year ago. I gave them a year to fix it and they did nothing.

Hanny you are a liar. You said the Soviets had 4 types of Motor gas. What are the 4 types of Soviet Motor gas and what were they used for?

weinsoldner I am sorry for the deplorable state of affairs in this forum and for that matter the game, I would point out that they started the abuse and like any pack of gutless schoolyard bullies they can deal it out but they sure can't take it. They are certainly not frightened to drag the brand through the mud.

(in reply to joelmar)

Post #: 129

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/4/2019 11:06:02 PM

Shalkai

Posts: 232
Joined: 8/9/2018
Status: offline

�But at the start of week 3 the Panzer corps is out of supply. Across the entire front, everywhere, for a whole week, ridiculous.�

Chuckfourth - Can you please tell us what causes you to make this statement? It is at complete odds with any of my Axis campaign game starts, or any AAR I can remember perusing.

At the start of Turn 3 in my last few games, my panzer units are near key objectives such as Pskov, Vitebsk, the Dnepr river, and poised to strike eastward in the Ukraine. No, they do not have the full 50MP of the overstocked PanzerGruppen on the morning of 6/22 as the campaign commences. They do have 30 to 40 MP available on average for Turn 3. Careful movement of units and placement of HQs allows the combat units to get 2/3 or so of their ideal resupply, even though the front is up to 20 hexes from the nearest railhead - or alternatively up to 25 or even more hexes (250 mi, ~400 km) from the �41 border.

Since your experience is apparently different, where are your panzers sitting at the start of Turn 3, and also their immediate headquarters? This information may shed some light on the root of your complaints.

Thank you,
- Shalkai

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 130

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/5/2019 9:16:40 AM

Hanny

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
Hanny you are a liar.

Fact free. I pointed out you were posting childish drivel in the thread, told you you were wrong and why, told you what and where to look to find out for yourself as you are incapable of learning from anyone else, not anyones else fault that you post about that which you know nothing.

Technical Support of Armoured Forces in the Vistula-Oder Operation, lieutenant general Milovskiy, 6.41 to 5.45, from the soviet QM reports. Funny thing is this report is amongst the links you used from AHF, and the same poster you keep using posted it and refers to the 4 fuels and that the Germans could not use them. So much for your reading ability.
Petrol Mogas:B78,B100,B70,KB70.
Tractors ran on Ligroin another petrol fuel.

SU Army level and German Cops who were far quicker at the process, by 42, had dedicated POL technical staff to test captured fuel, make sure it was not sabotaged,check its octane/water etc content before adding chemical additives/blending for use.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=b4QwDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=B-70,+KB-70+soviet+fuel&source=bl&ots=70v8mIlTN8&sig=ACfU3U1VPU2nZRvrjlZ0DIZNHGyZOpG3ww&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiRhZaOv4TlAhWznVwKHVlsBfwQ6AEwD3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=B-70%2C%20KB-70%20soviet%20fuel&f=false

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
Let me try working from first principles, or from the bottom up rather than the top down.
Opel blitz has a fuel capacity of 92L and internet gives it a fuel consumption of 30L/100km on a highway, lets say it is on part of the 64,375 kms of paved roads in Russia, thank you No Idea.
It is a 3 ton truck so it can carry 3 tons.

Interesting that you pick the late war highest fuel capacity opel production truck, not the 3 times more common, pre/early war lower 82L opel, nope its a 2 ton truck with a 3 t load bearing capacity. Dont try and think, you lack the functioning equipment to perform that task.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown
OK so it has a range of 300kms. So can go 150 km away, drop-off and get back home. No penalties.
Now what about if we put 9 20L jerry cans in the back? Well we can now travel 450 kms forward and get back home.

The penalty is a daily reduction of delivered tonnage of 80% of expected. Also the regulation require fuel to be transported by dedicated lorries marked B or BuG (Betriebstoff und Ger�t), who carried the German principle military grade fuel, in cans red (FS 11302) or green (FS 14066), in addition to that, summer and winter fuels were different.
In a day (5*60) it delivers 5 round trips of 3 t, and has completed by the QM manual its daily function of delivering 15 tons. If it goes on a single trip, it delivers 3 t and has in a day delivered 20% of the QM expected amount.

Every day the formation fails to receive 80% of its logistical requirements. You liked 110 tons a day with no fighting as a requirement for an ID with internal 30 t lift. 7 days of that is a requirement of 770 and 210 t delivered. 27% of expected is delivered a loss of 73% of expected tonnage. The game according to your incorrect figures is already over generous.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 10/5/2019 9:23:21 AM >

(in reply to Shalkai)

Post #: 131

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/5/2019 9:28:03 AM

Hanny

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shalkai

Handy and Chaos45 - thank you for good posts with even more information about historical supply limitations and how the Germans saw things and dealt with them. Good stuff, only some of which I�d read about elsewhere. :)

Your welcome, info not shared becomes lost. Have you met my brother Pandy?

(in reply to Shalkai)

Post #: 132

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/5/2019 9:32:22 AM

Hanny

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

He has done it before as you can see here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4332182&mpage=1&key=%26%2365533%3B
It doesn't matter how good your argument is, or how good your sources are or how knowledgeble you are about the Eastern Front. He will ignore all of those and keep pushing his agenda.

Simply stop posting and keeping this thread alive.

Your absolutely right of course, but where else can one take the piss out of a clown for free?

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 133

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/5/2019 11:37:00 AM

Hanny

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckles the clown

Partisans in the Baltic were nonexistent, not rarer. You show me some evidence of partisan activity in the Baltic please.

Try treading a book.

34 Bttns of rear area security Bttns used in AGN for 41 would argue you are ignorant of the topic.

https://history.army.mil/html/books/104/104-19/CMH_Pub_104-19.pdf
Partisan Forces At the beginning of 1943 the heaviest concentrations of partisans lay in three regions of the Army Group Center Rear Area, the wooded OrelBryansk area, the Pripyat Marshes, and the White Russian forests west of Mogilev-Orsha-Vitebsk.1 In the rear of Army Group North there were several sizeable groups behind the Sixteenth Army west of the Dno-Nevel rail line along the army group boundary and straddling the Velikiye Luki-Rezekne railroad.
THE DECISIVE MONTHS: JANUARY�JUNE 1944

The Northern Sector
Although only 250 of the 1,200 odd miles of railroad in the 60,000 square mile sector 2 had German security units permanently stationed along them, they set off but 439 rail demolitions in 575 attempts during December.' At the beginning of 1944 these bands comprised some 27,000 partisans, in sharp contrast to the 140,000-plus behind Army Group Center. Roughly 14,000 were in the rear of the Sixteenth Army, for the most part concentrated in the area west and northwest of Nevel. The remainder were in the Eighteenth Army rear between Lake Ilmen and Lake Peipus

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 134

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/5/2019 12:06:55 PM

chuckfourth

Posts: 222
Joined: 10/26/2011
Status: offline

Ok so thank you Shalkai, OK for example, at the start of turn 3,
XXXXI panzer corps is east of Tallinn on the gulf of Riga the three divisions have 9, 15 and 14 MPs. They are just within 5 hexes of their HQ. Corps HQ is within 4 hexes of 4th panzer group HQ Rail has been repaired as far as Siauliai so 4th panzer group HQ is 18 hexes from railhead, XXXXI panzer corps is 22 from the railhead.
XXXXVI panzer corps is just west of the Dnepr on the northeastern corner of the Pripet marshes its two divisions and one regiment have 12 12 4 MPs respectively. They are in friendly connected territory and within 5 hexes of their corps HQ. Corps HQ is 24 hexes form Pruzhany where the railhead is.
It is easy for anyone to reproduce what I'm talking about just play both sides open the front with infantry, move the Panzer corps forward then move the Russians out of the way, If the panzer corps use there maximum movement allocation for two turns they will be in the low teens at the start of turn 3. Logistics set to 400. So what the game is telling us is that a panzer division has a built in range of about 350 miles running forward at which point it needs a rest of one week without having to have fired a shot or maneuvered one bit. We aren't even allowed to have a Logistics option setting that actually makes a difference. You wouldn't have any of this this argument, I would gladly shut up, if there was just a game option to give the Germans realistic supply.
For AGC the Germans actually have to move at maximum pace to achieve historical milestones.

Look at the Baltic, Chaos45 supplies the information that when planning before the war the German G4 says that the Germans will be able to supply the advance to Leningrad OK.
Gen. Lt. a.D, Max Bork a Branch Chief in the Transportation Division confirms that was in fact the case, the advance never did run out of supplies.
Yet in the game 150 miles short of Leningrad on turn 3 the leading panzer corps are guaranteed to be out of supplies, i.e. MPs in the low teens.
Morvael refuses to engage on the subject he just relies on his forum bully boys to flood the thread with abuse and in short order everyone forgets what the discussion is actually about, job done.

Very good Hanny now what were the different Mo gas grades used for please

(in reply to Hanny)

Post #: 135

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/5/2019 12:41:54 PM

RedLancer

Posts: 4314
Joined: 11/16/2005
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

"Narva is incorrectly excluded, the line between Vilnius and Daugavpils is straight not bent into the Baltic, From Vilnius the boundary runs west should be southwest. Vilnius and Daugavpils are about 3 hexes in from the border not on it. All in all the Baltic looses about 100 hexes of its area. " Clearly not a map projection error, just check the prewar Baltic bounties on any reputable map you will see how wrong your boundaries are.

The map is correct. The boundary you refer to is the Baltic Rail Zone limit which is a game coded choice like the Axis Allies Limit Line. The reason I didn't see that post is because it was in the thread on the latest patch which I didn't read because I neither play WitE anymore nor have it installed on my computer.

You may well believe that the discrepancy between the Baltic's administrative boundaries and the rail zone is a mistake. However the reason that the stretch of rail between Vilnius and Daugapils was not included is because this stretch was broad gauge in Jun 41. The detail is here: https://www.feldgrau.com/WW2-German-Baltic-States-Military-Railroads

But to save people the bother of linking to it and to avoid any misunderstanding the highlighted section is in the screenshot. Let me be unambiguous - not all the Baltic State railroads were standard gauge on 21 Jun 1941. The level of research we put into the game is significant so we spot things like this.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

John
WitE2 Asst Producer
WitE & WitW Dev

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 136

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/5/2019 2:38:51 PM

Hanny

Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckless the clown
So what the game is telling us is that a panzer division has a built in range of about 350 miles running forward at which point it needs a rest of one week without having to have fired a shot or maneuvered one bit.
Morvael refuses to engage on the subject he just relies on his forum bully boys to flood the thread with abuse and in short order everyone forgets what the discussion is actually about, job done.

There is no discussion, there are the facts and then there is your fantasies, why would he waste any further time on your unicorn hunt.

Because thats the reality of ww2 logistics. Its also almost exactly the same as the pre war wargames predictions, which predicted if logistics failed, then forces could reach Moscow but be without the means to defend themselves.

Pzr Group fuel allocation per Pzr/Mot Division, roughly 430 ton in engines to be consumed, 4-500 ton containerised fuel load for resupply which is replaced in 24 hours from the depot/rail head. 900 tons is 292,250 gallons and a 4/5 day supply. Pzr/Mot has 900 tons on hand, consumes around 200 tons a forward bound of 75klm. It has a 90t internal supply lift.

Day 1 forward bound consumes 200 tons. 90t respply convoy sent back 150klm round trip. 2 trips achived. 180 tons replaced.
Day 2 loss of 20 tons. Repeat process. 90t delivered in single delivery of 300klm.
Day 3 loss of 130 tons. Repeat process. 90t delivered in single delivery of 450klm. Arrived middle of night.
Day 4, loss of 240 tons. Repeat process 90t still on the road net, 300klm into a 600klm journey.
Day 5 loss of 440 tons. Repeat process 90t delivered, complets journey.
Day 6 loss of 550 tons. Repeat process 90t still on the road net, 300klm into a 750klm journey.
Day 7 loss of 750tons. Repeat process 90t still on the road net, 300klm into a 900klm journey. Expected to return in 2 days.

Formation has half fuel tanks and the supply coys have spent all day every day attempting to bring fuel only to the formation. God forbid anyone wants top eat that week, or fire a weapon etc.

In the next week days without further manoeuvre the formation fuel stocks increase by a further 360 tons. As a depot or the rail head advances the supply situation returns to wards day 1 levels.

Game is very generous, ( only way for German AI produce a challenge) to as the rail head moves quicker and further ( than the GTR who created depots away from the rail lines) towards those drawing supplies than existed in reality).

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckless the clown
Very good Hanny now what were the different Mo gas grades used for please

Different engines run on different fuels. Read your own links, its in there.

Another of those concepts you forgot about logistics along with forgetting to read your own links.

< Message edited by Hanny -- 10/5/2019 6:15:05 PM >

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 137

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/5/2019 5:12:20 PM

Shalkai

Posts: 232
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Very good, thank you chuckfourth - your post shows the detail needed to isolate why our experiences are at odds, and why your Turn 3 fuel levels are so much lower than the ones I see in my own games.

Simply put, your corps HQs are over 20 hexes from rail head on Turn 3, which is caused by retreating all Soviet units so that Panzer divisions can be moved the maximum distance eastwards on Turn 2.

This is a situation where Panzer divisions are a bit further east than historically achieved, but not much. It is also unusual (though certainly possible) for Panzers to advance so far on Turn 2 without meeting any Soviet stragglers that need a hasty attack to free clear terrain hexes of ZOC. In both of our examples, panzer divs are farther east than historical results, so we need to look further to find the cause of the discrepancy.

In real life, supply throughput decreases as an exponential curve the farther supplies have to travel. In WitE, this is approximated through several linear functions, but there is a discontinuity in the decrease when the immediate HQ goes from 20 to 21 hexes away from railhead.

I haven't run an actual test game, but I can state that I do not see these very low supply levels (I see 30-40 MP) for two reasons - first, I keep corps HQ within 20 hexes of railhead, and second, my railheads are farther east.

Examples:
"XXXXI panzer corps is east of Tallinn on the gulf of Riga the three divisions have 9, 15 and 14 MPs. They are just within 5 hexes of their HQ. Corps HQ is within 4 hexes of 4th panzer group HQ Rail has been repaired as far as Siauliai so 4th panzer group HQ is 18 hexes from railhead, XXXXI panzer corps is 22 from the railhead."
This places your corps HQ at about hex 65,20 which is 22 hexes from Siailuai. (Note that 4th PzG HQ being 18 hexes from rail doesn't help the corps or divisions get fuel). In my games, the railhead is a few hexes further NE, near Jelgava. My HQ, if in the same spot, would be within 20 hexes of rail, so both corps and divs would get normal supply, not isolated. Even if my railhead was at Siauliai, I would simply place my HQ at say 64,22. This might require my panzers to be a hex or two behind where yours are - but they'd have 30+ MP to play with on Turn 3.

"XXXXVI panzer corps is just west of the Dnepr on the northeastern corner of the Pripet marshes its two divisions and one regiment have 12 12 4 MPs respectively. They are in friendly connected territory and within 5 hexes of their corps HQ. Corps HQ is 24 hexes form Pruzhany where the railhead is."
Pruzhany is at 55,66. 24 hexes east places your HQ around 77,62.
In my last start, my Turn 3 railhead was at 59,50 just W of Vilnius. Corps HQ was at 76,54 - so 19 hexes from rail. Divisions were five more hexes east, with a bridgehead in normal supply actually east of the Dnepr river.

Bottom line: You have exceeded a threshold coded into WitE, where the game's imperfect model delivers imperfect results. This suggests two questions:
1. Can the supply model in the game be improved? The answer is no in WitE (engine changes not practical), but yes in the forthcoming WitE2.
2. Can the supply model in the game be maximized through better play to avoid exceeding limititation in the code? The answer is yes, through a combination of maximizing railhead advancement and/or ensuring that corps HQ units do not suffer isolation penalties.

(in reply to Hanny)

Post #: 138

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/5/2019 10:32:15 PM

chuckfourth

Posts: 222
Joined: 10/26/2011
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Ok thank you Shalkai for your able assistance, but I remain puzzled, Your Railhead west of Vilnius is what I have. But how have you got the AGN railhead to Jelgava? Is not that FBD limited to 6 repairs a turn and so at the start of turn 3 should be at Siauliai? at the end of turn 3 I have the rail repaired past Jelgave just short of Riga. So are you repairing the AGN rail at better than 6 hexes per turn?
Also I cant see how it is possible to have units over the Dnepr at the start of turn 3? At the end of turn 3, sure. But how is it done by the end of turn 2? ie the start of turn 3?
Thanks in advance for your help
Good plotting, just to confirm my HQs are at 64 21 and 77 62
When I get time I will rerun my test but just for Lenningrad keeping within the 20 hex limit. And I will reread the manual on 20 hexes. Is the manual up to date explaining the supply drop off at 20 hexes.

Hanny you are hiding from me, which of your 4 Motor gas fuels are for what uses, You are happy to write hundreds and hundreds of words about me personally but you wont answer a simple question, either answer it or admit you are a lying fraud.

(in reply to Shalkai)

Post #: 139

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/5/2019 11:45:32 PM

xhoel

Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

Hanny you are hiding from me, which of your 4 Motor gas fuels are for what uses, You are happy to write hundreds and hundreds of words about me personally but you wont answer a simple question, either answer it or admit you are a lying fraud.

He keeps demolishing your arguments and is using your own sources against you not to mention that he has posted far more historically accurate information than you have. And your best counter to that is to ask him about motor gas fuels

? And this is after he has provided info that you requested over and over again. This is becoming pathetic. The more you keep posting the more I come to the conclusion that you either don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about, or you are just a troll with too much time on your hands. Just drop the matter and save some face chuckfourth.

< Message edited by xhoel -- 10/5/2019 11:53:56 PM >

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Post #: 140

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 12:17:01 AM

xhoel

Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

Rail Conversion in the Baltics is one third faster. It remains about half what it was historically, justified with the unlimited capacity argument which isn't a justification because the supply is severely limited once it leaves the rail.

Ah you shifted the goalposts again I see. In the original post you said the Baltics are treated like Russia. I said that is not the case and proved it. Now you are saying that it isn't fast enough. This argument has been had over and over again and mulitple posters have explained that because the rails have unlimited capacity the advance of the FBDs needs to be slowed down. It seems to me that the problem you have is that you do not know how to manage your HQs in order to get the best out of the supply system and are blaming that on the game design.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth
Partisans in the Baltic were nonexistent, not rarer. You show me some evidence of partisan activity in the Baltic please.

See Hannys post above. It seems like you have been proven wrong yet again.

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth
Alright you make exactly the same mistake as most people here. you don't read my posts. You said"Panzer Corps that has been on the move/fighting for 2 full weeks". My point is that the panzer corps has NOT been fighting forward just moving forward.
I break the front with infantry, I then move the panzers forward without fighting any Russians I go around them, I then run them forward again in the second week, Again avoiding contact with any Russians. NO FIGHTING FOR THE PANZER CORPS. But at the start of week 3 the Panzer corps is out of supply. Across the entire front, everywhere, for a whole week, ridiculous. Ammunition is about one third of supply tonnage so in this "no fighting" scenario panzer corps supply requirements are about one third less, probably more like half, than if they were fighting forward.

I never asked for full anything, I am just pointing out that the current situation clearly underestimates German supply capabilities.

And you didn't read my post either then since I clearly said moving / (meaning and, or) fighting for 2 full weeks. Can you post some pics of what it is exactly that you are doing? Maybe that would help your case. Just post screenshots so we can see the positions of the FBD, Corps HQs, your units and Soviet units for all 3 turns, optimized as best as you can. Also seems quite hard to believe that none of your spearheads has had any contact with the enemy. How are you going forward? Do the Soviets lack rear units?

Out of supply would be if they were sitting at 1% fuel. Having 15-20 MPs is not out of supply, it is low on fuel. And just out of morbid curiosity why do you insist so much on this scenario? It will never happen neither while playing against a human player (even a Soviet runner) nor when playing the AI. There will always be units to block the path of your panzers and you won't be able to move without taking contact. So why do you keep insisting on it?

quote:

ORIGINAL: chuckfourth

That's right I have done it before, I already pointed out this problem one year ago. I gave them a year to fix it and they did nothing.

I think you are overestimating your position and importance here. You didn't "give them a year to fix it". None of the devs works for you. You made a complaint and were shut down by multiple people proving you wrong. Which is the same thing that keeps happening here.

Now there is a small chance that everyone in here is wrong and that all the research that was done for the game is wrong but judging by the way you argue and the fact that your arguments don't stand up to scrutiny and fall like a house of cards I doubt that.

Post the screenshots and show us what you are doing. Maybe we can help you optimize your gameplay.

< Message edited by xhoel -- 10/6/2019 12:19:02 AM >

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Post #: 141

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 12:35:52 AM

Shalkai

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I thought Hanny answered you pretty well in post 130 above: "...soviet QM reports. Funny thing is this report is amongst the links you used from AHF, and the same poster you keep using posted it and refers to the 4 fuels and that the Germans could not use them. So much for your reading ability.
Petrol Mogas:B78,B100,B70,KB70.
Tractors ran on Ligroin another petrol fuel."

No, it doesn't spell out exact uses for each fuel type. However, I can clarify with likely uses. You can research further if desired. B100 - 100 octane, hi-test aviation grade. B78 - 78 octane, hi-test motor grade (well, sorta middle grade) usable in high compression engines - cars and high-power trucks/AFVs. B70 - 70 octane, low-test suitable for low compression engines like gas tractors and most trucks. KB70 - not sure on this; at a guess it might be gas/oil mix suitable for 2-cycle engines (motorcycle, generator, etc.). Or KB70 might be diesel, which Soviets used more than most other nations.

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 142

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 12:41:25 AM

xhoel

Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shalkai

No, it doesn't spell out exact uses for each fuel type. However, I can clarify with likely uses. You can research further if desired. B100 - 100 octane, hi-test aviation grade. B78 - 78 octane, hi-test motor grade (well, sorta middle grade) usable in high compression engines - cars and high-power trucks/AFVs. B70 - 70 octane, low-test suitable for low compression engines like gas tractors and most trucks. KB70 - not sure on this; at a guess it might be gas/oil mix suitable for 2-cycle engines (motorcycle, generator, etc.). Or KB70 might be diesel, which Soviets used more than most other nations.

Nice of you to provide the info Shalkai but I doubt chuckfourth cares about the uses of fuel types. He is simply nitpicking other peoples answer in a pitiful attempt to discredit them since he cannot counter the arguments that are being provided. Sad to see really.

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Post #: 143

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 12:54:36 AM

Shalkai

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Joined: 8/9/2018
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Further information on supply and advice on how best to use FBDs is available here in the forums - and even nicely collated by EvaldvonKliest - thanks EvK!!! I've learned tons!

In the War Room, please look at 'The Library of WitE resources' post. Items 1.3 and 1.5 - these delve deep into supply. 2.3 shows a totally optimized way to push forward a single line using three FBDs.

I don't use that optimized 3-FBD plan - the line is a bit north of the land bridge and main AGC push, it leaves two entire AG dependent on a single rail path (one lucky partisan bomb = AGC and AGN both crippled for an entire turn), and finally it is a little too gamey for my personal taste.

What I do instead is ignore pushing FBD3 east through Brest. That line starts several hexes farther west than other possible main rail lines. Instead, I rail FBD3 north to 47,46 then it combines with FBD4 to push rail farther on Turn 1. Turn 2 and later, FBD4 pushes towards Leningrad, FBD3 splits east and converts toward Daugavpils (mostly Baltic Rail zone, yay!) and FBD2 heads Vilnius/Minsk. This provides three railheads that are fairly well spaced to support all operations north of the Pripyat Marshes.

I can make some screenshots if the above descriptions aren't clear enough.

Think I just got a skill gain +1 "Forum skill increased! 100xp reward for using link in post." :D

(in reply to Shalkai)

Post #: 144

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 12:59:24 AM

xhoel

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From: Germany
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I just ran a test with AGN chuck. Using FBD moving forward and both Panzer Corps moving without contact. Turn 1, Panzers crossed the Daugava. FBDs repaired 40 miles of tracks.

My spearheads reached Pskov at the end of turn 2. At this time the Panzer Corps HQs were located a staggering 46 MPs away from railheads. FBDs repaired 70 miles of tracks.

Turn 3, FBDs repaired 60 miles worth of track. The rail lines reached Riga. At the start of turn 3, most units had 12-20 MPs. Did a HQ Build Up for one of the Corps (3 divisions costing 32 Admin points) and on turn 4 they had full mobility, eg 48-50 MPs. Driving forward from Pskov without contact I reached Leningrad. One of my divisions even captured Pushkin. 60 miles of track repaired on turn 4. Railheads reach Valmera.

There you have it. From the 22nd of June till the 10th of July my Panzer Corps reached Leningrad. This was done without taking enemy contact but keep in mind that the terrain also plays a role in fuel expenditure as units spend more MPs for difficult hexes, not to mention multiple river crossings which carry high costs as the bridges over them are presumed to have been detonated beforehand by the Soviets.

Also keep in mind that there won't be a case in which Panzers won't be fighting in the first few weeks. Infantry is lagging behind so Panzers have to pick up that burden.

Tell me now, what is the problem with the system?

< Message edited by xhoel -- 10/6/2019 1:06:06 AM >

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Post #: 145

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 1:39:53 AM

Shalkai

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Screenshot of AGC Turn 2 showing railhead and Dnepr bridgehead at Shklov

Attachment (1)

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 146

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 4:21:14 AM

chuckfourth

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Ok good thanks for the tips, I need a little time to digest, But In the meantime, Shalkai do you think the Germans can use any of these fuels in their vehicles?

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Post #: 147

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 4:36:06 AM

Bitburger

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Try playing the Russians first before bitching, and deal with the standard ahistorical lvov pocket or the super lvov.
Just surviving as the Russians is hard enough in current versions.
Shut the **** up chuck!
Banned?-ya well it was worth it.

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Post #: 148

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 5:03:17 AM

Shalkai

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For the vast majority of captured fuel, no they would not be able to immediately (within 72 hours) use it. The exception would be the 100 octane aviation gasoline (the rarest), which is generally specially marked and jealously guarded. Avgas is like O- blood type - universal donor. All the additives and the extra purity of avgas means it looks and smells different, so a quick check would probably be enough for a quartermaster to start carefully doling it out, especially if he knew it had actually been found at an airfield. They would still be cautious and reserve even that for emergencies though. A cup of sugar or a dollop of kerosene in a jerry can of gasoline can cause problems or even clog a carburetor or fuel pump. Sabotaging fuel supplies is very easy - as is simply burning them.

Putting in fuel of too low a grade is even worse. Power drops, you get engine knock (pinging) which can damage the motor, and again risk clogged carburetors and fouled spark plug problems. No handy tune-up shops open seven days a week in a war zone.

Previous posts have already referred to the need for testing and carefully checking fuel supplies after capture - by either side. Dumping in a can of captured, untested fuel would be a last resort. Troops would be gambling that enemy can of gas would get them another 50km down the road - but they might end up with a disabled vehicle only five minutes later if their dice roll comes up snake eyes.

Please note that all of the above is what I think, not detailed research I can cite. It is based on military experience, engineering education, personal amateur car-repair experience, and remembered historical references.

Interesting side-note - WitE actually models this. It tracks and uses captured fuel (mostly aviation gasoline I'm guessing, as you usually see the pop-up notification after overrunning an air base) Next time that happens in a game, take note of the pop-up saying 'XYZ Corps HQ has captured 0 tons of supplies and 3 tons of fuel' or something like that. :)

(in reply to chuckfourth)

Post #: 149

RE: How to fix the game. - 10/6/2019 5:10:46 AM

Shalkai

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Sheesh! Can we all tone down the venom a bit, please? As I posted a couple of days ago, even an acrimonious exchange can lead to useful knowledge being disseminated.

It may have taken 150 posts and a lot of name-calling, but I think chuckfourth might now be willing to admit that WitE models and formulas, although they are not perfect, are not quite as bad as he originally accused them of being.

(in reply to Shalkai)

Post #: 150