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Low Countries & Vichy

 
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Low Countries & Vichy - 10/30/2019 1:01:37 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 688
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline 		Just playing a game as Germany against the AI & there are a couple of issues that I have found

1. If you attack the Netherlands without attacking Belgium then Belgium remains neutral, wouldn't it have immediately
joined the Allies IRL?

2. When France Surrenders You don't get a Vichy France (as in SC) is that WAD?

3. Great Game really enjoying playing it, Kudos to you Alvaro

Manstein63

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RE: Low Countries & Vichy - 10/30/2019 1:17:37 PM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline 		On number 2 did you check the war panel for the Vichy choice. I believe it's mentioned in the report after Paris is taken. Otherwise, no idea, I got Vichy.

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RE: Low Countries & Vichy - 10/30/2019 1:23:25 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		#1 IRL no. This was something I researched thoroughly. The Belgium government basically sat there with their hands on their eyes going please don't DOW. They even set up military forces vs the Allies in case they attacked. It was the largest level of stupidity from them. I would love nothing more than to make them both join the Allies but it just wasn't a reality.

#2 WarPanel you can negotiate a surrender

#3 Thanks.



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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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RE: Low Countries & Vichy - 10/30/2019 3:09:01 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 688
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline 		Yes I got France to Surrender (Vichy Option) but there was no border on the map between Vichy & Occupied France. I was always under the immpression that Vichy remained neutral until the Torch Landings & the subsequent occupation


_____________________________

'There is not, nor aught there be, nothing so exalted on the face of god's great earth, as that prince of foods. THE MUFFIN!!!'

Frank Zappa (Muffin Man)

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Post #: 4
RE: Low Countries & Vichy - 10/30/2019 3:19:12 PM   
Manstein63


Posts: 688
Joined: 6/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

#1 IRL no. This was something I researched thoroughly. The Belgium government basically sat there with their hands on their eyes going please don't DOW. They even set up military forces vs the Allies in case they attacked. It was the largest level of stupidity from them. I would love nothing more than to make them both join the Allies but it just wasn't a reality.


What I am saying is that if Germany just attacks Holland without attacking Belgium at the same time, wouldn't that motivate the Belgium Government into allowing the Allies access? You can attack Holland in Late September/ October 1939 (with just a few Infantry Corp), regroup & refit then attack Belgium when ready (Outflanking the defensive river line) and be in front of Lille in time for the good weather April/May 1941. It could be classed as gamey

Manstein63

_____________________________

'There is not, nor aught there be, nothing so exalted on the face of god's great earth, as that prince of foods. THE MUFFIN!!!'

Frank Zappa (Muffin Man)

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 5
RE: Low Countries & Vichy - 10/30/2019 4:33:49 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Nope Belgium wouldn't have surprisingly enough. I forgot the exact story but they didn't want to poke the bear which was Germany.

I did slightly change them in the 1st patch so hopefully it will be enough to stall the Germans in the winter. This is something every WW2 game allows and historically there is really nothing to stop it. I looked up several things on this issue and the answers are all the same. Belgiums covering their eyes and saying "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing"

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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RE: Low Countries & Vichy - 10/31/2019 4:04:11 AM   
ThunderLizard11

 

Posts: 573
Joined: 2/28/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Nope Belgium wouldn't have surprisingly enough. I forgot the exact story but they didn't want to poke the bear which was Germany.

I did slightly change them in the 1st patch so hopefully it will be enough to stall the Germans in the winter. This is something every WW2 game allows and historically there is really nothing to stop it. I looked up several things on this issue and the answers are all the same. Belgiums covering their eyes and saying "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing"


Historically correct that Belgian King refused to discuss with UK/France and vowed to oppose invasion from either direction. Does make for a gamey option though to invade Netherlands in '36. Same issue I have with Hoi4.

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RE: Low Countries & Vichy - 10/31/2019 5:08:59 AM   
bcgames


Posts: 2527
Joined: 6/2/2010
From: Bramble Rose Farm, KS
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

Nope Belgium wouldn't have surprisingly enough. I forgot the exact story but they didn't want to poke the bear which was Germany.

I did slightly change them in the 1st patch so hopefully it will be enough to stall the Germans in the winter. This is something every WW2 game allows and historically there is really nothing to stop it. I looked up several things on this issue and the answers are all the same. Belgiums covering their eyes and saying "I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing"


Historically correct that Belgian King refused to discuss with UK/France and vowed to oppose invasion from either direction.

And the Germans knew this and banked on it? I think a random component is in order in this situation. Nothing is inevitable for actual decision makers experiencing real life as it happens.

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RE: Low Countries & Vichy - 10/31/2019 1:30:01 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

Historically correct that Belgian King refused to discuss with UK/France and vowed to oppose invasion from either direction.


Not really true.

Right, the first consequence of Belgian neutrality was to prevent all official contact between the French and Belgian staffs starting 1936. But, early 1939, General Laurent, a French military attache in Brussels, made secret contacts with General van Overstraeten, the King's special military adviser, with the latter's consent. General Laurent communicates valuable information on the Belgian military plans to the "Second office" of the French intelligence service.

Moreover, in October 1939, after the declaration of war of France and the United Kingdom to Germany, the king agreed to a reinforced consultation with the French General Maurice Gamelin. The king had a secret correspondence with Gamelin as described in "Servir" the book of General Gamelin.

What is also true, given the need to complete the rearmament and the wait-and-see attitude of the Allies, it was necessary for Belgium to avoid any provocation with regard to Germany, as the army was not yet ready to resist a German attack.


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Post #: 9
RE: Low Countries & Vichy - 10/31/2019 1:38:09 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

Does make for a gamey option though to invade Netherlands in '36. Same issue I have with Hoi4.


Yes, this is gamey in every game not only this one. France's "strange defeat" is hard to reproduce in any strategic game.


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ThunderLizard11)
Post #: 10
RE: Low Countries & Vichy - 10/31/2019 4:57:26 PM   
Fintilgin

 

Posts: 196
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline 		Another oddity is the ability to just pick off the Vichy states as the Axis. It seems like the sensible thing to do is accept Vichy and then just immediately invade it with your forces in place and grab undefended, still neutral North Africa at your leisure.

I feel like Axis occupation of Vichy and that immediate betrayal of the new peace treaty should more some powers away from the Axis and maybe speed American entry?

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 11
RE: Low Countries & Vichy - 10/31/2019 11:07:47 PM   
ThunderLizard11

 

Posts: 573
Joined: 2/28/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

Does make for a gamey option though to invade Netherlands in '36. Same issue I have with Hoi4.


Yes, this is gamey in every game not only this one. France's "strange defeat" is hard to reproduce in any strategic game.



SC both WaW and WiE have Belgium go to 99% mobilization of the Netherlands is attached. Hoi3 AFAIK had the UK/France providing some type of guarantees for the low countries.

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Post #: 12
RE: Low Countries & Vichy - 10/31/2019 11:42:22 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

SC both WaW and WiE have Belgium go to 99% mobilization of the Netherlands is attached. Hoi3 AFAIK had the UK/France providing some type of guarantees for the low countries.


Good idea about mobilization. How would this be translated in Warplan? More effectiveness for Belgium army?


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ThunderLizard11)
Post #: 13
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