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Axis air kills T1 - 9/7/2018 2:45:48 PM   
TheLysander


Posts: 56
Joined: 2/27/2017
From: England
Status: offline 		I would really like to know how players rack up soviet air kills above 4,000. For example i followed dinglir's T1 air walkthrough, it is thorough and useful. Yet i dont get the same amount of kills as he seems to get. Especially with regards the romanian airforce. Is there something i am doing wrong. I'd really like to understand why my planes are not wiping the floor like everyone else's .
Post #: 1
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 9/7/2018 2:58:53 PM   
Telemecus


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Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheLysander
Especially with regards the romanian airforce.


The latest version has a very big nerf to Rumanian tac bombers compared to the game version Dinglir played in those AARs so you almost certainly will get far less from that.

(in reply to TheLysander)
Post #: 2
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 9/7/2018 3:22:47 PM   
chaos45

 

Posts: 1889
Joined: 1/22/2001
Status: offline 		ummmm your wrong Telemecus...look at Beenders recent games- scoring over 6-7k+ soviet planes T1 and this is under newest patch.

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RE: Axis air kills T1 - 9/7/2018 3:31:06 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

ummmm your wrong Telemecus...look at Beenders recent games- scoring over 6-7k+ soviet planes T1 and this is under newest patch.


I got 11k under the first patch

I still have no problem getting over 6k on turn 1, but the nerf to the Rumanian tac bombers is very clear to those who play both versions as well as being documented. Just think, beender could have got so much more with the old Rumanian tac bombers

(in reply to chaos45)
Post #: 4
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 9/7/2018 3:32:43 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

Posts: 898
Joined: 10/7/2016
From: England
Status: offline 		Tele is right in the case of the the Rumanians they are not as effective as they used to be on turn 1 but you can still get high numbers regardless

It takes a tonne of time and thought out planning, almost nothing can be bombed before transfering to thought out empty airfields ahead of time and you have to think of the air war and ground war as an intertwined number of actions by creating holes you plan for on the ground and then pushing empty airfields up with enough ammo and fuel to transfers planes onto them

The most I have ever gotten is over 6.1k and as Chaos stated there are much higher numbers to be hit than that!
Jing we are looking at you

(in reply to chaos45)
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RE: Axis air kills T1 - 9/7/2018 3:34:50 PM   
Saulust

 

Posts: 115
Joined: 8/25/2018
Status: offline 		The Roumanian tactical bombers (IAR38/9s) were always pretty crap at racking up airframe kill totals in airbase bombing IME anyway... still use them anyway however not just on their own though. I always augment them or perhaps the other way around make sure to use them with bombers from the Roumanian 2nd Airbase, at least the 2 Potez units against the near 3 Southern Soviet air bases against Roumania. I accept that they don't account for much in themselves, although hopefully just by increasing numbers contributes some factoring into the tally of the airfield bombing mission but all the same if not, then still every bit extra even minuscule addition they do helps!

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RE: Axis air kills T1 - 9/7/2018 3:36:58 PM   
SparkleyTits

 

Posts: 898
Joined: 10/7/2016
From: England
Status: offline 		The Rums being nerfed was a little while ago though I thought not most recent update?

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RE: Axis air kills T1 - 9/7/2018 3:41:12 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Yes the nerf was a few patches ago, and on the original version they were very bad. But there was a period were they were absolute killers on a par with your stukas. In terms of realism this was incorrect and so for role playing what actually could have happened in world war two it is perhaps closer to what it should be. But at least when Dinglir was doing AARs I believe it was when the Rumanian tac bombers were incredibly powerful.

(in reply to Saulust)
Post #: 8
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 9/7/2018 3:57:21 PM   
EwaldvonKleist


Posts: 2038
Joined: 4/14/2016
From: Berlin, Germany
Status: offline 		Nerf was in 1.11.01 IIRC

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RE: Axis air kills T1 - 9/7/2018 10:15:32 PM   
beender


Posts: 184
Joined: 2/23/2017
From: Beijing, China
Status: offline 		A successful air raid campaign (or any airwar operation for that matter) relies exclusively on the use of the so-called Kabuki tactics, which I suppose was invented by Telemecus. So make sure you know that trick is the most important thing.

Alright let me share some specific ideas on T1 air raid.

-- All Soviet airbases west of X=70 or so can and should be cleared with three airbases filled with appropriate number of Stukas. It takes some pondering to find the right place to deploy them but believe me it's not all that difficult to locate. Just like a center of gravity. Remember to use staging bases which you will need. Also, some Soviet airbases starting at "inconvenient" places can be "herded" to where you want them

-- So this alone will get you like 4,000+ kills. Then it's time to use level bombers. He111 is especially effective at airfield bombing and JU88 is also OK on T1 where interception is few. You will want to deploy them as forward as possible, but also with enough fuels and ammo! This is more tricky than it appears and will require some planning and improvement.

-- There is a choice to be made in selecting level bomber targets, because unlike in the case of divebombers, here you can't wipe out everything. Normally I clear fighters first, so that further air raid need not (and actually cannot) be escorted by BF109s. Also, I find Soviet bombers less a threat in later games than fighters.

-- Romanian airforce nerf is annoying but does not have so much impact IMO. After all, those Soviet airbase are pretty close to border and thus can be dealt with by German bombers at the cost of only one or two later long-range bombing runs.

Having said all these, let me assure you that such air loss number obtained on T1 has little practical significance in terms of deciding the result of the game, once you get over 5000 or 6000. It's still fun though to see how high you can get, like a mini-game in itself

< Message edited by beender -- 9/7/2018 10:34:41 PM >

(in reply to EwaldvonKleist)
Post #: 10
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 9/7/2018 10:37:48 PM   
thedoctorking


Posts: 2297
Joined: 4/29/2017
Status: offline 		Most of the stuff you will blow up on turn 1 will be pretty much useless to the Soviets going forward. There are a bunch of Mig-3 airframes where you can get at them, and you can do a little bit to long-range bombers in some spots. But most of the air power that you will be facing in the future is not where you can get at it.

(in reply to beender)
Post #: 11
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 9/8/2018 9:14:21 PM   
TheLysander


Posts: 56
Joined: 2/27/2017
From: England
Status: offline 		Thanks for replies, all very heLPful and informative. I feel like the air war is a vastly under discussed topic and i believe that in order to better myself as a player i need to understand the true significance of air power in wite.

(in reply to thedoctorking)
Post #: 12
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 9/9/2018 6:48:11 PM   
AlexSF


Posts: 183
Joined: 9/2/2013
From: France
Status: offline 		Aahaha, I see you are not such the pro player I was afraid you were in our game. Thank God ! Stil you destroyed at least 3600 airframes on turn 1 if I remember well...
I just posted a thread ranting about the huge mess of the Soviet Airforce ! :)

< Message edited by AlexSF -- 9/9/2018 6:53:53 PM >

(in reply to TheLysander)
Post #: 13
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 11/1/2019 4:49:47 PM   
Jondalar

 

Posts: 2
Joined: 11/1/2019
Status: offline 		The IAR38 is a recon aircraft but not a bomber (only IAR37 and IAR39 are tactical bombers) though according to its description it should be a light bomber. Possibly a bug.

(in reply to SparkleyTits)
Post #: 14
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 11/1/2019 5:00:51 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		Not a bug - it is the result of data research. Many aircraft were converted to use as recon aircraft including tactical bombers and fighters - even though the designation remained as a light bomber group it was equipped and ran recon missions. If you have better data sources that say otherwise this could be a data correction. But it has been raised before and confirmed as WAD.

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RE: Axis air kills T1 - 11/2/2019 8:37:10 AM   
56ajax


Posts: 1950
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Carnegie, Australia
Status: offline 		Confuses the hell out of me. Historical accuracy gone a step too far.

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Post #: 16
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 11/2/2019 10:59:28 AM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		These IAR aircraft are hard to classify as they did both. The -38 was rather special with their BMW engines so they may have been pulled from light bombing duties and concentrated in recon units.

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Post #: 17
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 11/2/2019 6:56:41 PM   
thedoctorking


Posts: 2297
Joined: 4/29/2017
Status: offline 		True story: my mom was a private in the Women's Army Corps in World War 2. She was in the Ordnance Department of 15th Air Force and was responsible for keeping track of aircraft engines and parts and making sure squadrons got enough engines to do their jobs. She would have cared about the difference between BMW and Rolls Royce engines.

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Post #: 18
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 11/3/2019 9:52:28 AM   
Hanny


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline 		https://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?article=23

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Post #: 19
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 11/3/2019 10:45:29 AM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
https://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?article=23


Clearly says the IAR38 were designated as "Observation Flotilla" so perhaps the groups should be renamed from light bomber to that. So that would be a data correction?


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Post #: 20
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 11/3/2019 12:09:21 PM   
Hanny


Posts: 422
Joined: 7/5/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny
https://www.worldwar2.ro/organizare/?article=23


Clearly says the IAR38 were designated as "Observation Flotilla" so perhaps the groups should be renamed from light bomber to that. So that would be a data correction?



https://www.sas1946.com/main/index.php?topic=45512.0

A quick look, RU Air assets is not something im well read on.

* The IAR-38 and 39 squadrons were attached to every corps or army command and were used to observe/photograph the front line and enemy troops movements. In total 11 squadrons (11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 19th, 20th, 21st and 22nd) and one light bomber squadron (18th) were operational

Its not clear to me when the lt bomber becomes operational, looks like it could be 42 or 41 certainly by July August as i see a mention of it,, i see no reason why they did not have 1 in 41 since they in theory could all have been.

Nice read of where the allied air assets mentioned came from.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/26274547?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3Ae3ffc95ec58b69e3833237cd26753969&seq=10#page_scan_tab_contents

< Message edited by Hanny -- 11/3/2019 12:31:19 PM >

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Post #: 21
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 11/10/2019 2:30:05 PM   
juv95hrn

 

Posts: 242
Joined: 6/28/2005
Status: offline 		Could someone expand on this?

1. You empty a few air bases from the back, to the most forward air bases with space?
2. You then push these now empty air bases up to the border, still empty and use them as staging bases for ground support (if any) to break the border garrisons?
3. The empty staging bases advances along with ground forces into USSR itself, while you ground support (if needed) with some level bombers (which ones are best so "sacrifice" for land combat?
4. Only when German ground forces are about to overrun an air base, do you air strike it with (which ones?) bombers from the air bases at starting positions? Or should you have transfered these bombers even closer before this stage?
5. Late in the turn, when encirclements are performed and ground movement is almost already done, you transfer some fighters and Stukas (or?) up far into USSR along with panzer spearheads, and strike air bases that were out of range from the start of the turn? (Around Smolensk, Kiev etc)? Wont this leave huge supply demands on air bases "stranded" far into Russia (say around Minsk T1)?

For a beginner its hard to decide where air bases should be positioned at what stage of the Kabuki dance. I kind of wish this excaggerated game feature was smoothened out in WITE2 or in a patch, because it feels needlessly complicated to learn, and execute.

Maybe a post turn 1 move scenario would be the solution to all gamey and complicated T1 manouvers?

Any basic and fundamental advice is appreciated, to decrease the research effort around this...

(in reply to Hanny)
Post #: 22
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 11/10/2019 3:19:11 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		This post here might help just with the Kabuki dance as "business as usual" http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4612292

Here is the main picture in that post



quote:

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn
1. You empty a few air bases from the back, to the most forward air bases with space?

In the example above you only bring airbases forward which are surplus to requirements for the airgroups you leave further back - this should happen after you send some airgroups to elsewhere like the National Reserve so that you need fewer airbases for them than you did before.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn
which ones are best so "sacrifice" for land combat?


It depends what you mean by sacrifice for land combat? if you mean instead of using for other missions my advice would be
i) If you can bomb enemy airfields to destroy key enemy aircraft (i.e. with accetpable losses on your part) do that first as you can only use the first 33% of your air miles to do that anyway.
ii) If there is a choice between leaving the airgroups to ground support or manually bombing units first then always go with the former as it is three times more effective. Only manually pre bomb units before a battle if it is a particularly important hex (e.g. to capture Moscow, cross the Neva, storm Sevastopol etc.)
iii) Leave other missions like say city bombing to last

quote:

ORIGINAL: juv95hrn
air bases at starting positions? Or should you have transfered these bombers even closer before this stage?
5. Late in the turn, when encirclements are performed and ground movement is almost already done, you transfer some fighters and Stukas (or?) up far into USSR along with panzer spearheads, and strike air bases that were out of range from the start of the turn? (Around Smolensk, Kiev etc)? Wont this leave huge supply demands on air bases "stranded" far into Russia (say around Minsk T1)?


That of course is the fundamental trade off - logistics versus number of missions. There are other ways to keep adequate supply for your airgroups but the key problem is losing lorries that you will need in the blizzard. The closer air groups are when they start their missions the fewer air miles they will need per mission, the more they can do. T1 is usually not much of a supply problem at all - it is really T8 onwards for the Axis when it starts to become critical. My suggestions is
i) Never move heavy aircraft (level bombers, transports, Ju88D1) off hexes which are not on rail lines
ii) Keep stukas, fighters and tac aircraft on hexes with repaired rail lines if possible, but if not keep them as close to a rail line as possible. Remember with a staging base you can extend their range by 50% over their radius - so a Ju87B can strike up to 15 hexes away. First of all decide which hexes you will need your stukas to operate in and choose a hex 15 hexes away that is the closest to a repaired rail line.
iii) very light aircraft such as the Fi156c keep as close as possible to the front lines - their fuel requirements are minimal so you will prefer many more missions from them

Here I am putting reducing the logistics cost first as I want to preserve as many lorries as possible for the winter. I can usually get very good air performance from this set up anyway, but maximise lorries for the blizzard. If you are prepared to sacrifice more lorries for the blizzard, then move your airbases further from rails and closer to the action.

< Message edited by Telemecus -- 11/10/2019 3:25:51 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Axis air kills T1 - 11/12/2019 2:16:08 AM   
Shalkai

 

Posts: 232
Joined: 8/9/2018
Status: offline 		@juv95hrn - Here's some pictures and the action list from my first turn German air attacks. I'm intermediate, not an expert, but my plan uses most of the things discussed. Air bases move up very near the border, and lots of air units transfer around to save air miles. (see top third of .jpg). Later in turn, airbases move forward past the border so they can reach more Soviet air bases (see middle third of .jpg for where 1st Fl.Korps and 8th Fl.Korps ended up). Results are in bottom of .jpg; just over 4600 planes destroyed.


Air reorg, starting with AGN. Luftflotte 1, 1st Fliegerkorps , 1st-5th Luftwaffe Air Bases.
1st LW Airbase - send one Ju52, one Ju88D, and Do17 to National Reserve. Choose units that got the worst of morale/readiness checks.
3rd LW AB - send Ju88D to 1LW AB. 3rd LW move to 49,48.
1 LW AB - assign to 1st Fliegerkorps. Send Ju88A to 3rd LW AB. Move 1LW AB to 49,49.
2 LW AB - move to 49,48.
15 LW AB - send all three Ju87 to 1 LW AB at 49,49.
4 LW AB - move to 49,49.
5 LW AB - send all four Ju88A to 4 LW AB at 49,49. Move 5 LW AB (for now) to 48,48. This will later be advanced AB.
1st FK and Luftflotte1 HQ units move to 48,49. AGN air now staged. First ground attacks will clear Soviet units east - AB will move up more.

AGC N of Bialystok - 8th Fliegerkorps, 12th-16th LW AB.
15 LW AB (just emptied) move to 50,52.
13 LW AB - send all three Bf110 to 15 LW AB. Move 13 LW AB to 49,53.
16 LW AB - send all (three Stuka, two Tac) to 13 LW AB. Move 16 LW AB to 50,52.
14 LW AB - send all (four Do17Z, two Ju88D) to 16 LW AB. Move 14 LW AB to 49,53.
12 LW AB - send all (four Bf109) to 14 LW AB. Move 12 LW AB to 49,52; 12th will later be advanced AB.
8th FK HQ move to 49,52.

AGC S of Bialystok - 2nd Fliegerkorps, 6,7,8,10,11 LW AB. Group up around 49,68, just W of Brest.
(first in AGS) 21 LW AB move to 50,79.
10 LW AB send two smaller Stuka groups to 21 LW AB.
11 LW AB move to 49,68
10 LW AB send Stuka Stab and last group to 11 LW AB. 10 LW AB move to 48,67.
7 LW AB send all five Bf109 to 10 LW AB. 7 LW AB move to 47,67.
9 LW AB send all four He111 to 7 LW AB. 9 LW AB move to 47,67.
8 LW AB send all three Ju88 to 9 LW AB. 8 LW AB move to 48, 67; 8th will later be advance AB.
6 LW AB send Do17P (set to night) to NR, send all three Bf109 to 11 AB at 49,68. 6 LW AB move to 48,68.
2nd FK HQ move to 48,68. Assign 6 LW AB to 2nd FK HQ.
Transfer 2.(F)ObdL Do17P Recon from NR to 6 LW AB (this one is set to day missions)

AGS N of Lvov - 5th Fliegerkorps, 17, 21, 22, 23, 24 LW AB. Group up around 49,79 north of Lvov.
21 LW AB already at 50,79 (see above) with 109s, Stukas, and a recon.
24 LW AB move to 49,79.
17 LW AB send 1.(F)Nacht to NR. 17 LW AB move to 50,78, assign to 5th FK.
18 LW AB send both Bf109 to 17 LW AB. Leave the empty 18 LW AB assigned to LuftFlotte 4; it will later move to Rumania to even out AB numbers.
23 LW AB send all three Ju88 to 24 LW AB. 23 LW AB move to 50,78.
22 LW AB send all four Ju88 to 23 LW AB. 22 LW AB move to 49, 78; 22nd will later be advance AB.
5th FK move to 49,79.
Luftflotte 4 and the empty 18 LW AB can remain where they are for now.

AGS in Rumania - 4th Fliegerkorps, 19, 20 LW AB. This group is on vacation but it is a working vacation.
19 LW AB move to 66,105. (4th FK is static this turn, so move the airbase within HQ range)
20 LW AB move to 66,105.






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