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Some things that irk me

 
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Some things that irk me - 11/2/2019 6:05:07 PM   
blaa

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 12/23/2016
Status: offline 		Hi,

I´m a bit torn on the game atm, I love the graphics (seriously!) and sound, the mission generator is incredible and I love the setting.

However, here are some things that hinder my enjoyment of the game- really interested how others perceive this! It´s gonna be slightly long though.

- The command delay for some actions is too high. 60 seconds to rotate an individual unit is too much.

Let me give you an example:

My troop transport is killed by a vehicle from the south. My infantry faces the north. Now I have to wait sixty seconds for them just to rotate to face the vehicle that just blew up their transport. That´s silly.

Another one:

My infantrymen have their sights on an enemy tank. They are on an plowed field. The tank drives past them and disappears into the fog of war. They make no attempt to face the tank to keep it in their line of sight. So the tank disappears and I have to wait sixty seconds until I can turn them. Maddening!

Honestly infantry has heads that they can turn. Their view radius should if not 360 degrees be 270 at least. There is no way that it should take that long for them to rotate and they should rotate towards an enemy they are combating on their own, not just by command.

Rotating units should be a free action without delay imo. That´s smth units would really do on their own mostly. If the AI fails then the player has to be able to correct it.

- The punishment for giving individual commands AND the fact that you have to manually regroup after each individual command.

So first of all, this game is big on LOS. I get that we have formations, but when ordering a large group of vehicles some will always end up in unfavourable positions, and the game actively punishes you to try and correct this, which I just don´t get. It really takes away from the tactical gameplay. No, that tank should not stand there on the street, it should drive behind the house and hide there. That´s something the tank commander would directly tell the unit, why does it take 60 seconds for small corrections like this. Then they arrive behind the house and are in the correct position, but face the wrong way Aaand another 60 seconds just to rotate.

Movement and rotate orders should be the same. Every movement order should have two steps:
Step 1: Chose the destination.
Step 2: Chose the rotation the units will assume after arriving there.

That´s quick and fluid.

Small corrections should come free. Could be that in a certain radius around the unit (or the last move order!), you can tell them to reposition or rotate for free. Assuming that this would be stuff that their squad commander would directly order them to do, not wait for some radio msg from HQ.

The big scale stuff like "go from x to y" is totally fine with the command delay, but smaller corrections that units would normally make themselves without any radio commands simply take too long. It is infuriating to have a vehicle drive by one of your units and disappear into the fog of war, and then having to wait 60 seconds just to rotate the unit that clearly just saw the vehicle drive by. Another option: The further away your goal is, the higher the command delay. Order tanks from town a to town b, large command delay. Order them to drive 50 metres ahead or rotate, very small delay.

Anyway, those issues really take away from the game for me Which is sad cause again, I love so much about it.

< Message edited by blaa -- 11/2/2019 11:06:50 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/2/2019 6:17:23 PM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline 		Really can't find fault with anything you have presented, the same things have occurred to me, pretty much agree with you. I just would want the timer for command delay to toggle off and on to keep the map clutter down.

I'd like a better way to determine map elevation at a glance, but not sure how it could be done.





_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to blaa)
Post #: 2
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/2/2019 6:36:11 PM   
blaa

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 12/23/2016
Status: offline 		In theory the elevation could be done with an optional terrain overlay when selecting a unit. Anything above them varying colors of red and below them green, for example.

Thinking more about it, I think it would be great if a strategic move command would come with a "radius" around it in which you can reposition and rotate with a tiny delay. If you want to order them outside of that radius, you would again have to issue a move order with a big delay.

How realistic such a change to an existing game is, I don´t know. But it would really elevate this game in my opinion.

(in reply to budd)
Post #: 3
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/2/2019 6:38:12 PM   
exsonic01

 

Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/26/2016
From: Somewhere deep in appalachian valley in PA
Status: offline 		Regarding dismounted infantry, best thing we can try is just immediately order defend command after dismount. While it would still suffer some amount of delay time, unit will find the best defending position by its own. Check these posts.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4660924
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4619297
It seems that devs are working on this issue, we may able to see something to solve this situation in the next patch or future.

I like your idea about giving each units more freedom to react against new contact if it is close distance. But I think command delay should be there for rotate as well, but it might be possible to reduce delay time for reduce only, maybe.

(in reply to budd)
Post #: 4
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/2/2019 7:19:41 PM   
Policefreak55

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 10/11/2018
Status: offline 		LOS+detection and actions on contact are in my opinion the most important AI aspects in AB, and in my opinion currently pretty weak. To my knowledge, when the AI detects muzzle flash they don't make an active effort to scan the direction and detect where it is coming from. I also don't believe there's any sound simulation, so if a unit takes fire from a flank or rear, unless they are actively scanning that direction when they take fire, it won't be detected.

The scan system works with two systems, a primary scan facing the unit front, and a secondary scan that scans a random direction every 3 seconds, vehicle turrets have a scan direction also. When units are in movement, their vision is primarily focused on the direction of movement. I don't know how large the cone of vision is for the scan sectors, but I personally believe it isn't large enough and there aren't enough of them. A squad of ten men has ten different sets of eyes that can be scanning ten separate directions, a tank can have four eyes scanning four separate directions. I also feel that putting an importance on front scanning during movement artificially handicaps units by giving them tunnel vision. I believe that if the scan system was improved to better represent the amount of area a unit can realistically observe, and if units reacted to fire to orient on it and identify its location, it would solve a lot of problems.

(in reply to blaa)
Post #: 5
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/2/2019 7:32:58 PM   
blaa

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 12/23/2016
Status: offline 		Yes I agree, some problems could be solved by either giving the player better control or making the AI better and therefore reducing the need for player input.

< Message edited by blaa -- 11/2/2019 7:34:06 PM >

(in reply to Policefreak55)
Post #: 6
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 12:10:24 AM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline 		Have you guys tried stacking commands, it really really helps avoid most command delays...



< Message edited by Lowlaner2012 -- 11/3/2019 12:11:15 AM >

(in reply to blaa)
Post #: 7
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 12:21:33 AM   
nycoroner05

 

Posts: 26
Joined: 8/3/2010
Status: offline 		How do you stack commands? new to the game. TY

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 8
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 12:38:49 AM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline 		Say you want to move a platoon of tanks into a town and have them defend a road that the enemy is likely to use...

Order the tanks to advance into the town then at the same time give the tanks a defend order to cover the road, so its like a chain of commands given all at once, by the time your tank platoon has reached the town there will be very little or no command delay for the defend order...




(in reply to nycoroner05)
Post #: 9
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 12:47:06 AM   
Policefreak55

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 10/11/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowlaner2012

Have you guys tried stacking commands, it really really helps avoid most command delays...



Stacking commands is well and good for planned movements at the platoon level and up, but the scenarios blaa has are examples of commands needing to be issued deviating from plan to squad level units due to circumstances like sudden contact or poor positioning on a movement order, which can make for a pretty hefty command delay depending. With the command level that AB is mostly played at, it would be helpful to have some automatic response by the AI at squad level to better seek out and track enemy units, so the player can focus on commanding at the level they're given depending on the scenario.

As far as the issue with poor positioning on movement orders, do you use the defend waypoint to seek the best terrain at the end of a movement chain?

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 10
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 1:15:32 AM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline 		Yes I usually use the defend order if I expect that my units to come into contact with the enemy... I have found that the AI is half decent at placing units sensibly...


(in reply to Policefreak55)
Post #: 11
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 1:16:42 AM   
Policefreak55

 

Posts: 27
Joined: 10/11/2018
Status: offline 		Sorry I should've specified, that question was meant for blaa lol.

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 12
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 1:21:42 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		You can also modify command delays in the database editor.

(in reply to Policefreak55)
Post #: 13
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 1:40:02 PM   
zacklaws

 

Posts: 415
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		Many things "irk" me in the game that I gave up on it a long time ago and only use it for testing things out on. The command delay is one of them for example. Radio waves travel at the speed of light, so when an order is given by radio, it is received instantaneously. For example, you want to stop a unit firing, you send the command, but in AB, they keep firing for a long time until the delay time is up. In real life, soon as the message is received, the order is acted on immediatly and fire ceases. A tank, or infantry section will not keep firing for a minute or more. I know from real life that sending an order over a radio would stop the fire immmediatly with no delay.

A few other things irk me, for example vehicles can only carry their own dedicated section. If a vehicle looses its section and a section looses its vehicle, that section has to walk, it cannot use the vehicle that has lost its section. In real life it would, and a lot of vehicles can even cram in more passengers if need be.

Immobile units, that is unrealistic. I know that the 120mm wombat was man portable and could move by its crew, the 81mm mortar was man packable and could move.

Many things can be altered in the database and I have made weapon system moveable, but I ask myself why and stopped, until you can merge databases or move thing from one database to another, you are just waisting your time if a completely new database comes out or the existing one becomes updated as you would then have to redo all your alterations.

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 14
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 1:48:20 PM   
nikolas93TS


Posts: 619
Joined: 2/24/2017
Status: offline 		Many systems were manportable and then someone pointed out it is impossible to move the weapons AND associated quantity of ammunition as well.

As for command delay, you can remove it in database, 5min work.

(in reply to zacklaws)
Post #: 15
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 2:00:55 PM   
zacklaws

 

Posts: 415
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nikolas93TS

Many systems were manportable and then someone pointed out it is impossible to move the weapons AND associated quantity of ammunition as well.



I was in an airportable battalion as part of BAOR, and if we was not being transported in vehicles or helicopters or even the helicopters carrying our vehicles underslung or inside as cargo in Chinnooks, then we would be walking carrying all equipment including ammunition. Support sections could not carry all the ammunition but it would be distributed amongst the rifle companies who would carry it and dump it on the pre planned mortar lines enroute about 2 to 3 Kilometres from the objective. Alternatively a veh could be found to carry it.

(in reply to nikolas93TS)
Post #: 16
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 2:21:42 PM   
blaa

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 12/23/2016
Status: offline

And I agree with zacklaws that it would be a good feature if any troop transport could load up any infantry regiment, it could load the one that is nearest to it.

Edit: Made a new thread for the delay question

< Message edited by blaa -- 11/3/2019 3:53:55 PM >

(in reply to zacklaws)
Post #: 17
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 4:19:18 PM   
Lowlaner2012

 

Posts: 779
Joined: 11/20/2011
Status: offline 		For me the game without any orders delay would make the game like a less realistic RTS....

The orders delay/disabled waypoints rewards the player for thinking and planning ahead..

I suppose its a good thing that players can mod the game with no command delays, or somebody could create a modded DB and post it on the forums for those seeking it..


Cheers :)

< Message edited by Lowlaner2012 -- 11/3/2019 5:05:34 PM >

(in reply to blaa)
Post #: 18
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 6:37:02 PM   
budd


Posts: 2972
Joined: 7/4/2009
From: Tacoma
Status: offline 		I don't have a problem with the command delay for the most part, but waiting for a unit to rotate or slight adjustments i could do without. I consider it unit self awareness for the small changes and would like the delay removed for some small adjustments.

_____________________________

Enjoy when you can, and endure when you must. ~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"Be Yourself; Everyone else is already taken" ~Oscar Wilde

*I'm in the Wargamer middle ground*
I don't buy all the wargames I want, I just buy more than I need.

(in reply to Lowlaner2012)
Post #: 19
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/3/2019 6:55:04 PM   
blaa

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 12/23/2016
Status: offline 		If those values were moddable we could change it to our liking quickly, but I don´t think it is possible atm to change the delay for individual actions.

(in reply to budd)
Post #: 20
RE: Some things that irk me - 11/28/2019 9:13:41 AM   
Jace11

 

Posts: 87
Joined: 8/23/2012
Status: offline 		I have a couple more little gripes:

1. Air defence vehicles... e.g Shilka, Tunguska, Tor, M113 Vulcan etc etc.

All SPAAA and mobile SAM systems that have turrets engage and track air targets with their hulls? Why? They have turrets that traverse faster, they are designed to emplace and track air targets with their turrets and response times are crucial and often measured in seconds, but they will initially train their turret to the target, then align hull, then traverse ONLY with the hull. Not only does it look bad but it's affecting gameplay results too as hull turn rates are slower than turret. It is a particular handicap when an air target overflies a turreted air defence unit.

I imagine it's a general vehicle AI which is suitable for MBT's facing a threat and might also be suitable for air defence vs helicopters but it feels totally wrong for these air defence units engaging fast aircraft. A new AI along the line of : "unit can engage air" AND "unit has turret" AND "target = plane" then "use turret traverse only" might be more suitable.


2. Helo's are leaving before expending all weapons. They seem to leave if they use all their ATGM's (often expended first) even though they still have cannon, (and maybe even rockets remaining). Their cannons might be useful later. It seems to be range related. If they expend all rockets and missiles but there are no targets in cannon range they leave, if they are some targets in cannon range, they stick around. It's all very confusing and not being able to see their current ammo amounts doesn't help identify the problem either, but something is happening making them depart early (not damage related either).


< Message edited by Jace11 -- 11/28/2019 9:22:39 AM >

(in reply to blaa)
Post #: 21
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