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FITE 2 Sink Ship - 11/6/2019 9:51:11 PM   
walkra

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 2/16/2008
From: Lanus, Argentina
Status: offline 		Hi, How are you?.
Just a question about anti-ship artillery and sinking ships with airplanes.
I have tried to attack with all my bombers (including JU87) and I have not been able to sink a single ship. Is there any special reason that happens?
With regard to artillery, I have in range ships that I want to shoot with an artillery unit that has cannons with anti-ship capacity and does not directly select such ships.
The image shows the artillery unit, its characteristics and on the map, that selected unit (yellow circle) and although it is not observed, the ship to the southeast of the unit is selected to attack it but the icon is not activated to select " Single unit attack. " Is there any restriction to attack ships?.
Thank you, very much (I sorry my English).





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RE: FITE 2 Sink Ship - 11/7/2019 1:57:51 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		In FitE2 it is close to impossible to sink the Soviet ships with aircraft. It can be done but at very great loss in aircraft to the Axis. So the Soviet player can use their ships to bombard the Axis almost with impunity daring the Axis to attack with aircraft. Another unfortunate thing for the Axis is a lack of anti ship mines. They were used to great effect against the Soviets especially in the Gulf of Finland. But alas, this is not possible in TOAW and is there is no attempt to model this in FitE2. I'm not even sure how that would be done.

Artillery that does not display a coastal artillery icon can not fire at ships. Even if the artillery is mobile coastal batteries which the Germans had lots of. In this respect TOAW is broken in my opinion.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 11/7/2019 1:58:16 AM >

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Post #: 2
RE: FITE 2 Sink Ship - 11/7/2019 1:44:17 PM   
docgaun

 

Posts: 71
Joined: 1/26/2012
Status: offline 		Hmmm, there are problems, but it’s not a Fite2 problem. And they are not easy to solve.

Kristian did sink the 2 battleships in the Baltic fleet using stukaes and Tirpitz shot the rest in the same game turn, in our test game. He did say it did cost him quite a few planes. But again, there is no more Baltic fleet, so might be worth it.
Point being, you just keep hitting them. So, no, it’s not impossible, its not even close to impossible it’s just not as easy as Lobster like. 😉 And indeed, I feel the same way.

However, remember that the Soviet fleet, were not wiped out, even though it was frequently bombed historically. It should not be easy.

It’s a problem when you design aircraft, if you add antishipping to them, the instantly kill all ships (they get 120 in antishipping, if you click antishipping) This means that 1 stuka formation will sink all ships in the Baltic fleet in 1 turn, still having time for a smoke afterwards.
Seeing that most ships survived the war, or long into the war, we did the most realistic and most historical approach to the issue, that was possible in TOAW engine.

It would however have been nice to have the ability to module the antishipping of aircrafts. If anyone have ideas on how to change this equipment parameter, I am all ears.

I agree with Lobster, on that point, a little more antishipping to stukas would be nice, and I have no idea on how to simulate mines. Again, I am all ears for ideas on the issue.

Indeed, one thing that would be nice, that I have talked about frequently, is if Railroad artillery actually could hit ships. The German RR Art could then finish the Baltic fleet, if it came out to sea. Making it rather historically. So again i agree with Lobster on TOAW needing a fix on this issue


< Message edited by docgaun -- 11/7/2019 1:47:54 PM >

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RE: FITE 2 Sink Ship - 11/7/2019 2:41:03 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: docgaun
I have no idea on how to simulate mines. Again, I am all ears for ideas on the issue.

Couldn't you simulate mines using events? First, you could show the minefields on the map (if you wanted to) by modifying and using one of the TOAW graphics (ie, that allow you to place diamonds, oil wells, etc on the map). Then seems like you could use "Force X Occupies..." to trigger another event with some % that would remove the relevant ship (disband or withdraw, dunno...). You'd have to reset this after every ship, but seems like it could work?

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Post #: 4
RE: FITE 2 Sink Ship - 11/7/2019 2:44:47 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: docgaun
I have no idea on how to simulate mines. Again, I am all ears for ideas on the issue.

Couldn't you simulate mines using events? First, you could show the minefields on the map (if you wanted to) by modifying and using one of the TOAW graphics (ie, that allow you to place diamonds, oil wells, etc on the map). Then seems like you could use "Force X Occupies..." to trigger another event with some % that would remove the relevant ship (disband or withdraw, dunno...). You'd have to reset this after every ship, but seems like it could work?

I'm pretty sure that Force X Occupies doesn't work for deep water hexes.

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RE: FITE 2 Sink Ship - 11/7/2019 2:48:56 PM   
Curtis Lemay


Posts: 12969
Joined: 9/17/2004
From: Houston, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: docgaun

Point being, you just keep hitting them. So, no, it’s not impossible, ...


That's how it works in CFNA as well. Stukas don't quite have the punch to sink BBs outright, but they can damage them a bit. Since BBs repair so slowly, that can eventually sink them if they remain in range. To sink them outright, you really need torpedo planes.

The other issue is that targeting is automatic, and BBs are high value targets. So the stukas won't ignore them and go after ships they could actually sink.

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Post #: 6
RE: FITE 2 Sink Ship - 11/8/2019 12:14:20 AM   
walkra

 

Posts: 48
Joined: 2/16/2008
From: Lanus, Argentina
Status: offline 		Thank you guys so much !! With the airplanes I have tried several times (about 5 times) and I lost many airplanes and did not sink or damage any ship (I will try again, and I will tell you). And I'm going to try railroad artillery (although it will take a few turns before I take them near the coast and I'll tell you too).
Thank you very much!!

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Post #: 7
RE: FITE 2 Sink Ship - 11/8/2019 2:39:27 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Simply withdraw ships that were historically sunk and limit the area of operations for the Soviet Baltic Fleet. There were a number of Soviet Baltic ships sunk, some at their moorings. Some to mines. In the Black Sea it was typically mines, aircraft and shore guns. However, later in the war German pilots said they would rather fly ten sorties over London than fly one over Leningrad, the flak was that bad. I have a list of what ships were sunk, how and when.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 11/8/2019 2:40:03 AM >

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to walkra)
Post #: 8
RE: FITE 2 Sink Ship - 11/8/2019 1:43:43 PM   
cathar1244

 

Posts: 1003
Joined: 9/5/2009
Status: offline
quote:

It would however have been nice to have the ability to module the antishipping of aircrafts. If anyone have ideas on how to change this equipment parameter, I am all ears.


DocGaun -- follows (mentioned also at the bottom of this page https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4547880&mpage=8&key= )

There is also a third case in which anti-shipping capability is auto-generated. This is the case in which the anti-shipping flag is NOT toggled and a (smallish) anti-shipping capability is made available based upon the AP value. I will look into that and update this comment.

Edited to add the third case. Man, what a rabbit hole this one was, but finally figured out the arithmetic.

Note these examples function for fixed-wing aircraft. I would have to test with artillery to see if the same relationship holds.

Again, with antipersonnel (AP) as entered by an external editor into the equipment file ...

the anti-ship capability is figured as the square root of (two times the AP rating), rounded down.

Example: AP is 0. 0 times 2 = 0. Square root of 0 is 0, the anti-ship rating.

Example: AP is 8. 8 times 2 = 16. Square root of 16 is 4, the anti-ship rating.

Example: AP is 9. 9 times 2 = 18. Square root of 18 is 4.2426. Round down to 4, this is the anti-ship rating.

Highest allowed AP rating is 8000 (!) This works out to an anti-ship rating of 126 after rounding down. (Higher AP ratings can be entered, but TOAW will treat them as 8000.)

Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 11/8/2019 1:51:16 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: FITE 2 Sink Ship - 11/8/2019 4:24:18 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		I thought the Stuka was neutered too much in D21 so I modded it to give the Stuka an anti-ship value of 120 and I think they are just about right now. IMHO.

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