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AI frontline - 11/10/2019 12:06:16 PM

Kryger68

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Joined: 5/9/2019
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First, I'd like to say that I think it's a great game

But AI has problems in defense,and that ruins the game for me.

I've played three games. Two as Germany and one as the Allies.(Crack/Excellent)

All three times I have won big, because AI has not been able to make a proper front line on the Eastern Front (and North Africa).

It is too easy to surround enemy troops. It's not because AI doesn't have the troops, but because it doesn't use them too make a solid front line.

I hope the AI in the upcoming patches will change.

Post #: 1

RE: AI frontline - 11/10/2019 2:28:34 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Joined: 7/29/2013
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Very difficult to make A.I. for a game this large that has an enormous amount of variation in strategy. It is something I am working on today for the Monday update.

You can have 2 situations. Open like mine or static where I create strong points for the A.I. to easily defend. In the latter it becomes a slog fest as you have to surround each strong point and blow it up with 6 units, then move to the next. You wouldn't have the flowing blitzkrieg game WarPlan is.

So you can comment Unity of Command does a great job with the A.I. And I 100% agree. But that is a limited field with set objectives. I could run this A.I. in a UoC scenario with specific scripting and it would work good.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Kryger68)

Post #: 2

RE: AI frontline - 11/10/2019 7:05:39 PM

Kryger68

Posts: 8
Joined: 5/9/2019
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Thanks for your prompt reply. Looking forward to following the game in the future

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 3

RE: AI frontline - 11/11/2019 4:42:46 PM

mavraamides

Posts: 447
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline

I have worked on the AI for a turn based grand strategy game and I can say from personal experience that front management is an extremely difficult problem and there is very little information out there on how to do it properly.

It's one of those things that humans are particularly good at because we have innate spatial visualization abilities baked into our brains that are far more sophisticated than we realize until we try to implement them in code.

A human can just look at a map and 'see' where his units belong in order to best delay or block an opponent without getting surrounded or cut off. Trying to translate that ability to an AI is non-trivial mostly because we don't really understand it ourselves.

The fact that this AI moves so quickly when managing so many units is quite impressive, from my experience. And I've seen it make some very intelligent looking moves like replacing an infantry unit with a much stronger armor unit in Leningrad right before I was in position to cut it off.

(in reply to Kryger68)

Post #: 4

RE: AI frontline - 11/11/2019 4:49:38 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
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The A.I. has a cascading logic tree which is very particular. I have to be very careful when making changes because it filters down the logic branches. I use a lot of influence maps when determining what it wants to do.

I have been very tempted to have it record data on games it players with humans and have players send me back the data so I can set up a semi-neural net that feeds off the data.

SC3's A.I. is very fast also. Big improvement from SC2.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to mavraamides)

Post #: 5

RE: AI frontline - 11/11/2019 5:24:00 PM

Franciscus

Posts: 809
Joined: 12/22/2010
From: Portugal
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I have been very tempted to have it record data on games it players with humans and have players send me back the data so I can set up a semi-neural net that feeds off the data.

Seems a great idea. Count me in

_____________________________

Former AJE team member

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 6

RE: AI frontline - 11/11/2019 5:58:47 PM

governato

Posts: 1079
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I have been very tempted to have it record data on games it players with humans and have players send me back the data so I can set up a semi-neural net that feeds off the data.

Again, great idea! Maybe just put an option for every game to have the game recorded and sent, with YES the default.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 7

RE: AI frontline - 11/11/2019 6:36:30 PM

mavraamides

Posts: 447
Joined: 4/1/2005
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I'm worried that learning from one of my games might make it dumber!

(in reply to governato)

Post #: 8

RE: AI frontline - 11/11/2019 11:04:23 PM

Palid

Posts: 6
Joined: 11/11/2019
Status: offline

Hey guys, first of all I want to say this game does look great and it's everything I've been looking for because hoi4 isn't my cup of tea. My biggest concern is the AI as this thread mentions.. I'm not super picky but will it give me a challenge or punish me for bad moves?

(in reply to mavraamides)

Post #: 9

RE: AI frontline - 11/30/2019 6:29:51 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

Some thoughts on the front line:

. The bigger the front line, the more visible the problem will be. Thus, the problem will be seen more in Russia than on a reduced front like Poland or France.

. The human thinks vitally to its flanks for what reason? In order not to lose his life line, understand his line of refueling. For AI, this must result in attacks that follow the lines of communication, roads / railroads to maximize refueling. And, a use of all units to, with the ZOC, prevent incursions behind the front line thus secure flanks.

. On a broad front, this means dividing one corps into division to cover a wider area (1).

That it is necessary to give ground to put ourselves in better situation if need (2). Too advanced and it is death assured.

That there is a need to reduce salients if it reduces the number of units on the front line (3).

Is the AI able to do the three above algorithms (1) (2) (3) when planning its offensive or defensive move?

I know this will considerably lengthen the time of reflection of the AI and thus the passage to the next turn. So, it's a design choice.

But it's worth the wait if it prevents the AI from leaving holes in its front line.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Palid)

Post #: 10

RE: AI frontline - 11/30/2019 10:36:06 PM

AlvaroSousa

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The A.I. does split corps and armies now if it is lacking in a front line

It does give ground for better spots although this always doesn't work right

Salients and being surrounded are always big A.I. issues as these situations are very dynamic in scope.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 11

RE: AI frontline - 12/1/2019 7:26:40 AM

tyronec

Posts: 4940
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From: Portaferry, N. Ireland
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Play the AI to learn the game mechanics.
Then play HvH if you want a good competitive game.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 12

RE: AI frontline - 12/1/2019 8:33:06 AM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

The A.I. does split corps and armies now if it is lacking in a front line

I am confused. When you say now, is it in the latest patch or in the incoming one .04?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

It does give ground for better spots although this always doesn't work right

Salients and being surrounded are always big A.I. issues as these situations are very dynamic in scope.

Agree this can be complicated. If AI makes it vital to preserve its line of supply, it can determine it is surrounded and the best direction to move.

Thanks

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 13

RE: AI frontline - 12/1/2019 8:41:04 AM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tyronec

Play the AI to learn the game mechanics.
Then play HvH if you want a good competitive game.

LOL - a Michael T. AI bot for example ?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to tyronec)

Post #: 14

RE: AI frontline - 12/1/2019 10:19:35 AM

Meteor2

Posts: 429
Joined: 7/20/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline

And the AI is not aware of dangerous positions for the air groups.
Today I eliminated 3 of them in a row (twice) with a mech unit, which was in range.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 15

RE: AI frontline - 12/1/2019 4:26:57 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
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I don't remember if v31 or v4 had it check the change log in the scenario folder.

As for air units. It tries it's best to position them in places where it can't be killed but consider this.

Say I think a front line is secure as a human and from a location recon didnt show me you have several tank corps and blew a hole in my line. Now you over run my rear planes. Is that a mistake on my part? The A.I. follows there similar rules.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Meteor2)

Post #: 16

RE: AI frontline - 12/1/2019 9:02:20 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alvaro Sousa

I don't remember if v31 or v4 had it check the change log in the scenario folder.

Checked, this is not in v31. Must be in the incoming v4.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 17

RE: AI frontline - 12/7/2019 11:51:55 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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Russian versus Axis AI. Warning, warning...

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 18

RE: AI frontline - 12/7/2019 11:54:52 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

Tallinn saved but the corps on the right are in bad shape. That about five turns that I achieve a breakthrough between Velikie Luki and Vitebsk without AI reaction.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 19

RE: AI frontline - 12/8/2019 2:19:25 AM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
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Actually I figured out how to improve this situation from a different angle.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 20

RE: AI frontline - 12/8/2019 8:26:34 AM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

Cool, can you tell us more? Note I have not yet v4 patch

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 21

RE: AI frontline - 12/8/2019 1:23:43 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
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This feature of the A.I. being aware of being surrounded in a large area is something that has plagued wargames since the stone age of wargames. It is incredibly difficult to do because these issues are so dynamic.

One solution is to make sure the A.I. doesn't advance too far
Another is keeping a reserve in specific spots then figuring out when to release them.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 22