Objective Snipe scenario tips?

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Objective Snipe scenario tips? - 4/11/2003 12:45:55 PM

mandreads

Posts: 51
Joined: 3/7/2003
From: Finland
Status: offline

Hi!

I've found an almost impossible scenario for me to pass. It comes with spwaw download and is called Objective Snipe.

It is played as a GE, against UK troops.

There the UK have set up a defensive position in an wide open area in North Africa. As a GE you need to claim the area they occupy. UK force is infantry and 2pdr and 2pdr AT-guns that are really hard to spot.

I set the AI level at 25, and the battle started pretty good for me but at a halfway to the battle I've lost most of my tanks and I really think that I lose all of my tanks before the end because I am not able to see the last remaining at-guns, and when I spot them I don't have enough firepower available to blast 'em away.

At the start I reconed the area with light vehicles. I drove as near as I could and then bailed out and left the crewmen sitting on their vehicles. Then I would move some tanks further away and when it got shot then I would check with the crewmen if they noticed who shoot. It worked fine, until I lost the light vehicles and got near enough so that enemy infantry started shooting my "recon troops".

Then when some AT-gun was visible I would just shoot it with everything I got.

After I ran out of halftracks I used tanks without ammo or malfunctioned guns to do the recon task. But when I use this tactic the time is working against me. Those 6pdrs can take out almost every type of my tanks with single shot.

So what should I do otherwise? This wouldn't be as hard as it is if I had some artillery at my disposal, but there ain't. How to see those hard to see units? The first unit that showed up in enemy positions was the Command tent, should I blast that away or should I just ignore it?

Post #: 1

- 4/13/2003 8:53:54 AM

Karnaaj

Posts: 243
Joined: 3/17/2002
From: Spokane WA USA
Status: offline

Hmmm. If the first visible enemy unit was the Command Tent, you *could* take a shot. This will probably cause at least one AT gun to fire at your firing unit, so you might spot something.

Seriously, tho, hose the commanders when possible - it does affect morale, and that can make a difference between a gun crew that hangs in and shoots next turn, or one that cowers and runs.

The biggest difficulty with Snipe (from what I remember - didn't play it that much) is that you can't spot those guns easily. OK, just did a quick refresher as the Brits. The Germans play hell spotting those guns, alright. The other bad thing (which is what I fired it up to check) is that the AT has 360-degree traverse - no "sneaking up out of the fire arc" here. There's a whole lot of infantry which *will* assault your tracks coming in, as well... no bazookas or PIATs, but you're in earlier tanks, so it evens out some.

All in all, this is not a traditional "balanced" scenario - but no one ever said war was fair. You have a mission, and you *will* take losses trying to complete it... question is, how few can you get away with?

No artillery means that you have to deliver smoke the old-fashioned way - "Karl, Fritz, and Hans, take your squads up there. If you get shot at, throw smoke." Some (not all) of your tanks have smoke as well. Use it, but don't overdo it. (See below.) Don't allow flank shots on your tracks - front armour is thicker for a reason, even if it might not be thick enough. Also, don't let your halftracks get killed. You'll want then to stand off a little and carve infantry into catfood, and (if you can restrict the sight-lines enough) to punish the AT-gunners. (Let 'em use up their shots, or reinforce your displeasure upon the suppressed.) The dust raised by vehicular movement will also block visibility, but to a somewhat lesser extent. A side-to-side run will raise a screen, but it's not perfect, and allows a flank shot (which they *will* take) - if you have to do this, use something cheap and Italian. Running forward will cost you, but the combo of burning wreckage and raised dust, especially along a narrow front, will allow you to bring more force forward. Once your closer in, bring your infantry up, but still behind the dust/smoke and out of line-of-sight. Forward *slowly* - you're less interested in shooting here than spotting. Tanks, once visible, will get hit - survivours should first-round *smoke* farther into the encampment (which is why I said not to waste it). You *need* to block line-of-sight for the other guns. If you live, then work on: AT, HQ, vehicles, infantry in about that order. The infantry will pop smoke on retreat, and assault when you come through - keep your infantry up front, and let them get shot... you can support them afterwards.

Good luck!

Note: one thing to try, whenever you run into a real tactical problem, is to just play it a few times, get the feel for the scenario... then try it as the *other* side. "No *wonder* I'm getting mauled! Howinhell'm I supposed to beat *that*?" Y'might also find that Enemy was just having a lot of luck that day, or that the AI isn't real bright. (Snipe is a good example - the Germans will come rolling right up to be hammered.)

One last thing: check the mission-briefing text... it might be a "can you do better than history?" scenario - like Snipe. It seems that the Brits slammed the Axis a good one that time...

Hope this helps, or garners comments, or something...

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 2

Flashbacking - 4/13/2003 5:17:10 PM

ZoomBoy27

Posts: 75
Joined: 8/13/2001
From: Vancouver BC Canada
Status: offline

I remember this one; it was the 1st scenario I ever tried(again and again). I wrote off SPWAW as being unplayable from this one.
Only because of MC:LV did I come back

ZoomBoy

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 3

- 4/18/2003 5:10:14 PM

Karnaaj

Posts: 243
Joined: 3/17/2002
From: Spokane WA USA
Status: offline

Yup, it'd be discouraging to keep going in and fighting without much chance of winning... always try swapping sides and seeing if there really *is* a chance. Just did "Taking Tuetzpunkte 11" earlier, waiting for lunch , and as usual, I blitzed it - didn't capture one VH, and two log rifle pits survived. Then, whilst eating, I did it as the Germans - much more of a challenge. The Greeks captured all the left-most VHs, but didn't knock out the log rifle pit...

Swapping sides might not work every time, tho. "Wittman's Gamble", anyone? Even with a lot of the vehicles edited for speed (to keep 'em from automatically swarming, I think), that Tiger will have 200 infantry crawling all over it and prying it open with their bayonets.

As discussed in other threads, AI is pretty artificial. Versus a human, you will undoubtedly get a tougher battle... in playing Wildman's Iwo Jima (Big) as Japanese, I've really mauled the American invaders. (As I recall, I kept more than half the VHs, and got a minor victory.) With Wild Bill's A Marine Ordeal, I think I managed to keep or retake all but two VHs, and (when it ended) had most surviving Americans heading back for the beach.

It's always worth a try. Just been doing an early M4Jess one, Santa's Train, from *both* sides over the past couple-three days. The Soviets can get a quick victory versus the German/American forces, but they have to get all the VHs before the American reinforcements really start arriving; the Germans usually lose the southernmost three VHs, but with the Flammenwagens and engineers they really gut that prong of the invasion. The mid-field VHs (at the train and the crossroads by the hill) exchange hands a bit, but with enough Maus support, they can be held long enough for the Yanks to arrive - which will happen, as they can't grab enough VHs to force an early end. (At least, under AI control.) Arty use on either side has to be careful, but the Germans and Americans have a distinct advantage - as Ivan, I usually beat hell out of the Wespes and HQ complex with everything until my engineers and paras can take 'em, while as Ivan and Sam, I'll use the 8cms to local effect, and everything else on the roads leading to VH areas at the train and crossroads noted above; it's more to force offloading and pinning of infantry, but if I kill an assault gun or three that's cool as well.

Ghod - not only am I long-windedly repeating myself, I'm bragging up my slapping of the AI. I *really* gotta get around to some PBEM or more Lost Victories...

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 4

- 4/19/2003 2:11:06 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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Lamentably, this scenario was done a long way back, before many new features were implemented in further patches and updates.

The fact that spotting now is so much harder than it was when the scenario was designed is the major cause of the impossibility of the scenario.

I don't think I have that one in my files anymore. Did the author of it give his name? If so, I'll try to see if we can make it a bit more playable.

While on the subject, I'm in the processing of upgrading all of my scenarios (and hopefully campaigns) to the .7.1 version and offer them in a complete package.

Most are playable currently but some done with version 1.0 up to version 4 might have some bad icons or some other anomaly.

If you will, send me the scenario or give me the author's name.

Wild Bill

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(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 5

- 4/19/2003 9:43:00 AM

john g

Posts: 984
Joined: 10/6/2000
From: college station, tx usa
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wild Bill
[B]If you will, send me the scenario or give me the author's name.

Wild Bill [/B][/QUOTE]

It was done by Trey Marshall, way back with TGN SPWAW 1.01.

I played it from both sides, and didn't view it as impossible, just one sided. Some scenarios are there to teach you something, this one falls in the same catagory as King of the Hill and The Hill, assaults doomed to failure. Hopefully they teach you just how far you can push troops in the face of a defence that just isn't going to be beat.
thanks, John.

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 6

- 4/19/2003 1:38:27 PM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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Now that is a very interesting perspective and a wise one, John. You have a valid point. Not all scenarios are necessarily winnable, if they are designed to teach a point.

The author should, however, state that in the introduction to make that clear to the player. Trey may have done that. I don't have the text at hand to verify it.

Or, it should be made clear that it should be played from only one side, Brits or Axis forces.

Either way, once I get my hands on the scenario, I should be able to reply with more clarity.

Thanks for the information.

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Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 7

- 4/21/2003 5:04:07 AM

Karnaaj

Posts: 243
Joined: 3/17/2002
From: Spokane WA USA
Status: offline

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wild Bill
[B] Not all scenarios are necessarily winnable, if they are designed to teach a point.

The author should, however, state that in the introduction to make that clear to the player. Trey may have done that. I don't have the text at hand to verify it.[/B][/QUOTE]

The textfile doesn't specify that it's not winnable as Germans, but it does note the actual results: 37 armoured vehicles and "several" others killed, versus 200 men and one AT gun escaping.

Spotting rules may make a diff there... I never thought about it. Just assumed that given a few hours to set up (even in the dark), it'd not be too difficult to camoflauge gun positions. First-to-contact would have the best views, but would also be the first targetted/hit. Follow-ups would have to peer through the smoke and dust, until they came out in the open and saw/were hit.

Not sure how much of a signature the 6-pounders would leave, even in the desert, but like the man sez, "A movin' foxhole attracks the eye." It'd be a *lot* easier to spot and target the track approaching than for the crew, bouncing around and (likely, after the first kill) peering through vision slits, to make out that actual *source* of the dust/smoke. (And if they're unbuttoned, well, they're not paying your infantry to *bring home* ammo, now, are they? )

[QUOTE][B]Either way, once I get my hands on the scenario, I should be able to reply with more clarity.[/B][/QUOTE]

Uhm, stock 7.1, first page of scenarios, between A Simple Command and Frozen Suvanto. Scenario 27 in the lists. Cleared out some of the older/less interesting ones, hmm?

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(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 8

- 7/8/2003 3:41:25 AM

werderwayne

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/29/2003
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"Snipe" is not a balanced scenario. I tried it as an Axis player and got hosed. I thought I was missing something, so I tried it as a British player and the Axis got hosed again. Bottom line is that the axis player will lose.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with this, I just think that there should be a warning in the intro that it is nearly impossible for one side to get even a draw.

-WW

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 9

- 7/8/2003 3:44:46 AM

werderwayne

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/29/2003
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karnaaj
[B]++SNIP++

Spotting rules may make a diff there... I never thought about it. Just assumed that given a few hours to set up (even in the dark), it'd not be too difficult to camoflauge gun positions. First-to-contact would have the best views, but would also be the first targetted/hit. Follow-ups would have to peer through the smoke and dust, until they came out in the open and saw/were hit.

[END QUOTE]

ATG's WERE really hard to spot. Michael Wittmann thought that ATG's were MUCH harder to kill than tanks because ATG's are so darn hard to spot.

-WW

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 10

- 7/8/2003 3:56:50 AM

Wild Bill

Posts: 6821
Joined: 4/7/2000
From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
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That is precisely the problem. The scenario was designed before the full fog of war was introduced to the game. It changed the complexion of many of the scenarios done prior to version 4.

Try turning off Fog of War in preferences and see if it is any easier...WB

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Independent Game Consultant

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 11

- 8/6/2003 5:49:29 AM

Procrustes

Posts: 633
Joined: 3/30/2003
From: Upstate
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Hi,

This scenario is next to impossible - I always thought it was supposed to be like that. I've come close to winning by (1) taking awful casualties and (2) dismounting my infantry as soon as someone takes op fire, and creeping them forwards. They make better spotters than any of your other units.

The thing that has annoyed me the most about this scenario is that most all the axis units have the same name - "KG Stifflemyer" or some such - even the german and italian units get the same name.

(in reply to mandreads)

Post #: 12

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