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Soviet OOB limit? - 11/26/2019 3:37:07 PM   
rob89

 

Posts: 327
Joined: 4/24/2013
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Are there limits to the number of units that the Soviet can create?

Tank and Mech Corps, Rifle & Cav Corps, Arty units, etc ...

thank you in advance
Post #: 1
RE: Soviet OOB limit? - 11/26/2019 6:27:00 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		There is a limit on number of air groups for the Soviet side - 600 I think it is.

I do not know about hard limits on creating units - although you might run out of the points to make them with. But there is certainly a limit on arms and manpower. Some elements even have a hard cap on their production - for example you cannot create more than 200 cavalry squads for each half of a turn. So even if you had lots of cav corps units, if you had no cav squads to put in them they would only be empty shells.

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RE: Soviet OOB limit? - 11/27/2019 6:14:56 AM   
rob89

 

Posts: 327
Joined: 4/24/2013
Status: offline 		In S.J.Zaloga, L.S.Ness, The Red Army (companion) Handbook 1939-45, there is a complete table with the number of any soviet unit type, for each semester, from 1941 to 1945.

I think it would be really curious if a simulation like WitE, in which the German OOB is rigidly defined until the last battalion, the Soviet could instead create units in anti-historical numbers.

But that is the asymmetry that I never really understood ...

regards

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Post #: 3
RE: Soviet OOB limit? - 11/27/2019 12:40:21 PM   
Zug


Posts: 66
Joined: 11/2/2018
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rob89

I think it would be really curious if a simulation like WitE, in which the German OOB is rigidly defined until the last battalion, the Soviet could instead create units in anti-historical numbers.

But that is the asymmetry that I never really understood ...



+1

I don't understand it either. It's my biggest issue with this game. Germans can't even scrap together a HQ. But it's not that I want the ability to do so for the Germans, I'm fine with the way it works. But then, the Soviets should play by the same rules. So either they can both do it, or not do it. I really don't understand why it works so differently for each side. Has this ever been explained?

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Post #: 4
RE: Soviet OOB limit? - 11/27/2019 1:23:31 PM   
Telemecus


Posts: 4689
Joined: 3/20/2016
Status: offline 		I suppose one reason is that it is the Soviet Union that is being invaded. So the manpower to put inside units, and hence how many units you should have, are dependent on how far the Axis invade into the Soviet Union. On the other hand the German homeland is not invaded by the allies, or at least not until so late it no longer matters.

(I know that you could still allow flexibility of which kind of units you have etc - but just giving this as a possible explanation for the asymmetry)

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RE: Soviet OOB limit? - 11/27/2019 3:40:05 PM   
rob89

 

Posts: 327
Joined: 4/24/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zug


quote:

ORIGINAL: rob89

I think it would be really curious if a simulation like WitE, in which the German OOB is rigidly defined until the last battalion, the Soviet could instead create units in anti-historical numbers.

But that is the asymmetry that I never really understood ...



+1

I don't understand it either. It's my biggest issue with this game. Germans can't even scrap together a HQ. But it's not that I want the ability to do so for the Germans, I'm fine with the way it works. But then, the Soviets should play by the same rules. So either they can both do it, or not do it. I really don't understand why it works so differently for each side. Has this ever been explained?



In my game with Germans vs Soviet AI, the Red Army, at the beginning of July 1942 already has 75 Rifle Corps (historically, at the date, they had only 20 of these new type of units) plus 192 Rifle Divisions (for an equivalent of about 400+ divs, although I already destroyed 300+ of them); and 32 Tank Corps when, historically (as in the aforementioned book), the Red Army never exceeded 24 Tank Corps.

I could understand the need for flexibility for an OOB like the Soviet one, with divisions destroyed and rebuilt many times, but there should be a limit, for each unit type, equal or similar to the historical one, period by period; otherwise the obsessive rigidity of the German OOB is not justified, and a little ridiculous ...

regards

< Message edited by rob89 -- 11/27/2019 3:41:11 PM >

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Post #: 6
RE: Soviet OOB limit? - 11/27/2019 5:37:47 PM   
thedoctorking


Posts: 2297
Joined: 4/29/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rob89

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zug


quote:

ORIGINAL: rob89

I think it would be really curious if a simulation like WitE, in which the German OOB is rigidly defined until the last battalion, the Soviet could instead create units in anti-historical numbers.

But that is the asymmetry that I never really understood ...



+1

I don't understand it either. It's my biggest issue with this game. Germans can't even scrap together a HQ. But it's not that I want the ability to do so for the Germans, I'm fine with the way it works. But then, the Soviets should play by the same rules. So either they can both do it, or not do it. I really don't understand why it works so differently for each side. Has this ever been explained?



In my game with Germans vs Soviet AI, the Red Army, at the beginning of July 1942 already has 75 Rifle Corps (historically, at the date, they had only 20 of these new type of units) plus 192 Rifle Divisions (for an equivalent of about 400+ divs, although I already destroyed 300+ of them); and 32 Tank Corps when, historically (as in the aforementioned book), the Red Army never exceeded 24 Tank Corps.

I could understand the need for flexibility for an OOB like the Soviet one, with divisions destroyed and rebuilt many times, but there should be a limit, for each unit type, equal or similar to the historical one, period by period; otherwise the obsessive rigidity of the German OOB is not justified, and a little ridiculous ...

regards

That's the AI, it cheats. An actual player would be hard pressed to have 20 rifle corps by that point. In a game I'm playing that's right at that point, I have seven plus about ten tank corps and twelve cav corps.

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Post #: 7
RE: Soviet OOB limit? - 11/27/2019 7:12:53 PM   
Hanny


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Status: offline 		https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=4yOsDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=rifle+corps+1942&source=bl&ots=Oj4K7M1zI8&sig=ACfU3U0jjn3wcoa7xDbbF1EvQJHcefduJg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjivtjnmIvmAhWsTBUIHV3LBzcQ6AEwD3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=rifle%20corps%201942&f=false

For anyone into in free data.

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RE: Soviet OOB limit? - 11/27/2019 7:33:12 PM   
xhoel


Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rob89

I think it would be really curious if a simulation like WitE, in which the German OOB is rigidly defined until the last battalion, the Soviet could instead create units in anti-historical numbers.

But that is the asymmetry that I never really understood ...

regards


+1

WitE2 is implementing this IIRC. They have caps on the amount of units that can be created and it makes sense. As it stands now, the only thing stopping the Soviets from building whatever they want is their imagination. But ofc in the beginning of summer 42, building will be slow and nowhere as near as to what you are seeing.


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Post #: 9
RE: Soviet OOB limit? - 11/27/2019 9:21:08 PM   
Great_Ajax


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From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline 		The same table by Zaloga mentioned earlier was what I used to set caps (with a percentage over) on Soviet build limits in WitE 2.

Trey

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Post #: 10
RE: Soviet OOB limit? - 11/27/2019 10:06:36 PM   
xhoel


Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

The same table by Zaloga mentioned earlier was what I used to set caps (with a percentage over) on Soviet build limits in WitE 2.

Trey


It is a very nice feature indeed, thanks for the work Trey!

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Post #: 11
RE: Soviet OOB limit? - 11/28/2019 9:24:07 AM   
rob89

 

Posts: 327
Joined: 4/24/2013
Status: offline 		Maybe I discovered another issue, which would explain the excess of Soviet manpower (and therefore unity, beyond the lack of caps in the parameters)

As of 1942, end Q3, comparing the official Soviet Statistics (Krivosheev, 'Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses') and my test-game.

KIA & MIA (POW) : actual = 5800k > my game = 5500k (of which about 3000k are POWs)
WIA ('disabled') : actual = 4500k > my game = 2500k (of which about 400k recovered)

There seems to be an underestimation of WIAs.
Moreover, the ratio between KIA and WIA (almost 1:1) also seems a bit anomalous ...
Note that for Germans (same date), the KIA/WIA ratio is a much more normal 1:2 ...

regards

< Message edited by rob89 -- 11/28/2019 9:36:15 AM >

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Post #: 12
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