[Logged] LRASM off target

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[Logged] LRASM off target - 11/24/2019 4:23:12 PM

tiemanjw

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
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Summary:
When generating the terminal leg of its path, LRASM goes after the position of the ship from when it (the LRASM) was launched

Details:
When manually plotting a course for the LRASM missile to attack shipping, the missile will automatically add a final leg to the targeted ship. If the ship moves, this leg is not updated, nor is there a way (that I am aware of) to have it account for ship motion, or ensure it flies (manually or otherwise) in the direction the ships are expected to be in when the missile arrives. If the final manual waypoint is "close" to the target ship, then this lack of path update can point the missile in a direction in which in can't acquire the target.
In the attached scenario, two B1s launch a salvo of LRASM missiles at 3 ships. The 3 ships are line abreast, and traveling at 18 knots. The LRASMs were set to come in from the starboard beam, with the last waypoint being set about 10nm off the starboard beam of the expected position (of the ships when the missiles arrived, accounting for their course and speed). When they reach this point they turn from a course of 165 deg (which would take them directly to the ships, to a course of between 143 and 114 (depending on which ship they are targeting), light off their radars - which can't "see" the target ships - and fly into infinity.

Workaround:
Attach fast moving ships from the front or rear.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by apache85 -- 11/28/2019 10:22:13 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: LRASM off target - 11/25/2019 1:35:34 AM

Eboreg

Posts: 230
Joined: 3/14/2019
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Isn't it possible to re-path an LRASM after launching it?

(in reply to tiemanjw)

Post #: 2

RE: LRASM off target - 11/25/2019 2:21:03 AM

KnightHawk75

Posts: 1450
Joined: 11/15/2018
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eboreg

Isn't it possible to re-path an LRASM after launching it?

Yes, If a unit with-in range has\still-has a tomahawk based datalink to it, or it was that way in cmano, I use that to hit single-unit (but un-targetable) airfields after using a bol launch on the AGM variant all the time, not to mention re-target them post launch when original target has been taken out by other munitions preceding them. It's a beautiful weapon in that sense.

Thing is I recall LRASM's in cmano updating their final legs automatically when updated location info on a target came in post launch, it sounds like from poster maybe that isn't happening anymore?

< Message edited by KnightHawk75 -- 11/25/2019 2:25:33 AM >

(in reply to Eboreg)

Post #: 3

RE: LRASM off target - 11/25/2019 5:53:58 AM

tiemanjw

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
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No... tried that, I can't update or retargeting (at least not the same way I can with tomahawks). I thought this was a feature of the actual missile and looked for it when I made the original post, but in the article I found it explicitly said the LRASM could not be reprogrammed once launched.

(in reply to Eboreg)

Post #: 4

RE: LRASM off target - 11/25/2019 2:02:44 PM

KnightHawk75

Posts: 1450
Joined: 11/15/2018
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tiemanjw

No... tried that, I can't update or retargeting (at least not the same way I can with tomahawks). I thought this was a feature of the actual missile and looked for it when I made the original post, but in the article I found it explicitly said the LRASM could not be reprogrammed once launched.

It is a feature of the missile in the database, but you must have a datalink to it as I mentioned.
There does seem to be a difference in cmo though, the datalink must be one from the firing unit itself seems now.

Attached scenario you can f1 re-target the already fired missile to your hearts content, note the b-1 has the tomahawk command link (134) manually added too it prior to firing. Personally I think it should get added when that load-out is added but it not being there may be intentional for realism by default.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by KnightHawk75 -- 11/26/2019 7:32:58 AM >

(in reply to tiemanjw)

Post #: 5

RE: LRASM off target - 11/25/2019 5:44:00 PM

Tookatee

Posts: 262
Joined: 6/11/2019
Status: offline

While the LRASM is meant to be a stealthy ASM it does have the ability to connect to a datalink (both irl and in the database) which allows it to receive new information to attack a target, regardless if it has changed course or not. In short if it's able to connect to a unit with the datalink then it should be able to receive updates and adjust its flight path accordingly. Otherwise, it will go autonomous and attempt to locate the target in the area it last knew (e.g. whenever it was last connected to the datalink or the time of launch.)

As for this article you speak of I'd like to read it as every one of the sources I've been able to find on the topic indicates that the LRASM uses some form of datalink to relay the information from its sensors back to the launching craft and/or other LRASMs, with them explicitly defining mid-course updates as being a core part in the system.

< Message edited by Tookatee -- 11/25/2019 5:50:37 PM >

(in reply to KnightHawk75)

Post #: 6

RE: LRASM off target - 11/25/2019 11:03:16 PM

tiemanjw

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
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Here is the article I saw:
https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2016/12/15/pentagon-accelerates-acquisitions-of-ship-killing-missiles

Its from late 2016, so a few years old. Quote in question:
The LRASM gives the Navy new gee-whiz technology for ocean warfare. Autonomy in missiles is not new, Engdahl said. �We�ve been fielding semi autonomous weapons since the 1970s.� The Harpoon finds targets with mid-course guidance, opens up the radar seeker and searches. The LRASM is similar in that once it�s targeted it cannot be reprogrammed in flight. �But it is much smarter than Harpoon,� he said. It uses radio-frequency sensors to identify ships in multiple ways. �It's a much more precise and stringent semi autonomous capability. There is a very low probability that it would ever misidentify a tanker or a civilian ship.�

No idea how authoritative it is, or if this is just a get it to the fleet now short coming, with retargeting planned for a future block.

Of course, the second hit in google is:
https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/year-2015-news/july-2015-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/2927-lockheed-martin-oms-payload-on-board-u-2-spy-plane-used-to-dynamically-retarget-lrasm.html

in which a U2 acted as a comms relay to allow for LRASM retargeting. So who knows? My guess is if it isn't in there now, it will be at some point.

(in reply to Tookatee)

Post #: 7

RE: LRASM off target - 11/26/2019 1:34:32 AM

c3k

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Joined: 4/25/2017
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LRASM has a SEEKER. It should follow emissions. It is not a cruise missile, relying upon coordinates.

See: https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a14292926/long-range-anti-ship-missile-targeting-system-explained/

"Joe Mancini, the missile�s sensor project manager at BAE Systems, explained to Popular Mechanics, explained LRASM does things differently. Instead of using an active radar system to locate its targets, LRASM uses a passive sensor to sniff out and home in. LRASM doesn�t emit any electromagnetic signals that would allow the enemy to detect it ahead of time. Instead, the missile turns the tables by homing in on enemy shipboard radars."

and: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-158C_LRASM

"Unlike current anti-ship missiles the LRASM is expected to be capable of conducting autonomous targeting, relying on on-board targeting systems to independently acquire the target without the presence of prior, precision intelligence, or supporting services like Global Positioning Satellite navigation and data-links."

and: https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/long-range-anti-ship-missile.html

"LRASM is a long range, precision-guided anti-ship missile leveraging off of the successful JASSM-ER heritage, and is designed to meet the needs of U.S. Navy and Air Force warfighters. Armed with a penetrator and blast fragmentation warhead, LRASM employs precision routing and guidance, day or night in all weather conditions. The missile employs a multi-modal sensor suite, weapon data link, and enhanced digital anti-jam Global Positioning System to detect and destroy specific targets within a group of numerous ships at sea."

Sure, it COULD use data-links but it does NOT NEED to. Launch towards known enemy position and then sniff it out. Unless the enemy is not emitting, in which case, the enemy is not much of a threat.

Interesting that it homes in passively. It'll be hard to detect this missile in time to do much defensive work against it, especially how it uses EM for homing.

(in reply to tiemanjw)

Post #: 8

RE: LRASM off target - 11/26/2019 1:44:24 AM

Tookatee

Posts: 262
Joined: 6/11/2019
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Yeah that supports what the reasoning for why the weapon should have a datalink capability, while it has the ability to identify and engage targets on its own it retains the datalink capability to relay information from other LRASMs and/or other platforms to augment its ability to identify and engage targets. And I just looked it up and Lockheed Martin themselves states that the weapon uses a datalink https://www.lockheedmartin.com/en-us/products/long-range-anti-ship-missile.html I think that's as affirmative as it gets.

(in reply to c3k)

Post #: 9

RE: LRASM off target - 11/28/2019 4:01:26 AM

Rory Noonan

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline

Logged for investigation. Is this still an issue?

_____________________________

(in reply to Tookatee)

Post #: 10

RE: LRASM off target - 11/29/2019 3:59:39 PM

tiemanjw

Posts: 580
Joined: 12/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: apache85

Logged for investigation. Is this still an issue?

Yes... the initial issue from the OP still occurs. I am not sure about the ability to retarget / reprogram waypoints once fired. Next time I shoot one, I'll see.

(in reply to Rory Noonan)

Post #: 11