Air war

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Air war

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> WarPlan >> Air war

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Air war - 12/2/2019 2:23:11 PM

Almeron

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline

I've tested the air war results, and I found some interesting question/mechanics. Maybe I'm wrong, but my last opponent was beaten by german air forces, with around 1:2 ratio damage.

I found, if the german interceptors goes first (for example to bomb units, or airstrike, whatever...), and they are countered by allied planes, another german interceptor will rush to protect, and the allied fighters must deal with two of them. First with the intercept forces, and second time, with the attacking forces.

If a bomber group attcak, they air fighting power is lower, so they could be damaged, but the fighter vs fighter results are severe for allied. One fighter groups vs. 2 german fighter groups cause huge looses. And in a long run, for example 4-5 turns with constans air fight, the allied side could be cripples in an easy way.
Of course the german planes are out of the range of the french/GB fighters, and they not intercept at will, on the allied turns.

Due my humple test result, I found, 1 vs 1 result gives balanced rate, 1:1, 2:3, so on... not a huge difference, but with 2 vs 1 fighter, the damages increase significant. On clear weather 4:7, 3:8, and other, much higher results came.

The same result could be attached to the allied side, of the german wanted to contest for air superiority.

< Message edited by Almeron -- 12/2/2019 2:49:06 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 3:09:37 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

Well you have a fighter with an escort fighter flying. They aren't doing much damage to ground units.

So say I add something like air sups flying as bombers are reduced in air to air. Then no one would fly them as bombers.

You could consider it a fighter sweep effectively. Your opponent could do the same.

But let me think on this.

A) air sups as bombers don't get escorts
B) air sups as bombers have lower air combat
C) air sups can't fly bombing missions (dont like this one)
D) leave as is as a strategy.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Almeron)

Post #: 2

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 3:29:54 PM

Almeron

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline

Can I choose between A-D?

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 3

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 4:08:48 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

I'd propose E but that's quite the code.

E) Non phasing fighters don't intercept missions which have air superiorit groups as bombers. (Even the Fighter-Bombers are useless as they have max 2 tactical factors so currently it's a redundant tech).

Otherwise I'd say A is the more viable option; B would just cripple the few (probably enforced) fighter-bombers Air Superiority. (Personally I'd remove the Fighter-Bomber tech, recycle it with something else, maybe Jet Fighters. A tech that does nothing up to '42, and in '43 level gives some decent boost and in '44 outguns all the others. It's an early sink to invest there as it nets 0 bonuses but it's the best one in the end of the game. I fear it may favor USA though as they've more techs than anyone else).
I'd then add adequate logistics to Hungary, Romania, Finland, any nation with a fighter bomber, and hand them instead a 10/20 Interceptor and a 10/20 Tactical bomber for Ground Support. (Or similar values)

C defeats Fighter-Bombers entirely.
D equals that baiting fighters to take a double dip against escort+fighter and it opens the path to the bombers later on that won't need escorts anymore.

< Message edited by Cohen_slith -- 12/2/2019 4:11:58 PM >

(in reply to Almeron)

Post #: 4

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 4:13:17 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Almeron
I found, if the german interceptors goes first (for example to bomb units, or airstrike, whatever...), and they are countered by allied planes, another german interceptor will rush to protect, and the allied fighters must deal with two of them. First with the intercept forces, and second time, with the attacking forces.

So an Allied bomber flies a mission with fighter escort. A German fighter intercepts and the Allied escort responds (intercepts). Then a second German fighter intercepts the Allied interceptor?

That doesn't sound right. There should be at max one interceptor and one escort, then the fighter battle resolved, and then the interceptor attacks the bomber. A potentially infinite chain of interceptors-intercepting-interceptors would be insane.

A suggestion would be to consider a Combat Air Patrol feature where players can designate a specific target hex with some radius range for a specific fighter on intercept or escort duty. So it would be committed only to that area. I have noticed in SC that it is sometimes easy to draw off good enemy fighters with soak-off air combats, allowing missions to get through. Something to think about.

(in reply to Almeron)

Post #: 5

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 4:29:27 PM

Almeron

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline

quote:

So an Allied bomber flies a mission with fighter escort. A German fighter intercepts and the Allied escort responds (intercepts). Then a second German fighter intercepts the Allied interceptor?

Only one intercepts.

For example:
German JG1 starts a bombing mission. Useless against ground targets, but he's a fighter, so goes 1:1 in air combat.
Allied side intercepts, with 1 air unit. German JG2 fighter goes on escort mission.
How will play this out?
First german escort, and allied fighter engage
Second german "bomber" and the same allied fighter do same

That means 2 german fighter hit 2 times (one each), and the allied still fights 2 round.
And the allied planes looses more, because he fights with two different fighter, and in the maintime the unit loses effectivity, some planes get damaged, so the second punch will be a harder hit.
Since the allied plane fought 2 times, on the next turn the unit has less effectivness, and so on...

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 6

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 4:45:05 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

That's what I tend to do when I am the Allies and maul the Luftwaffe.
Almeron outplayed me though and he kept the Luftwaffe grounded in the Allied turns. Given I feel the Luftwaffe got also quite lucky with the results.

On a sidenote on the air war, strategic bombers are quite strong on their own against fighters by what I am experiencing.

(in reply to Almeron)

Post #: 7

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 4:55:35 PM

Almeron

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline

quote:

Given I feel the Luftwaffe got also quite lucky with the results.

Luck = Supply trucks

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 8

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 5:08:49 PM

pzgndr

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Almeron
That means 2 german fighter hit 2 times (one each), and the allied still fights 2 round.

I got it. German fighter flying ground support should fight with defense factor versus Allied fighter surviving attack factor. The German escort would fight with attack factor versus Allied defense factor. But fighters escorting fighters still doesn't sound right. Option A would be appropriate.

My suggestion for CAP is just that, something separate for consideration later.

(in reply to Almeron)

Post #: 9

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 5:10:36 PM

Almeron

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline

Well, with varian A, fighter-bombers will have meaning to exist.

(in reply to pzgndr)

Post #: 10

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 5:14:44 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

They'd have meaning to exit but they'd need a higher tactical factor over time. With 2 tactical factors WHEN pratically at full efficiency, they tickle any target.

(in reply to Almeron)

Post #: 11

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 5:19:21 PM

Almeron

Posts: 60
Joined: 8/4/2017
Status: offline

Or they should get the first tactical point earlier.

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 12

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 5:37:36 PM

AlbertN

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline

I'd have the '39 version with a +1 tactical factor and a -1 to the air to air, and then they should gain 3-4 tactical factor so that in '45 tech they've 5-6 tactical; which iirc is like a tactical '39 having 5. Otherwise they're just negligible. If I want a bomber I just get a bomber and it will do better, have better range or just hit way harder and will use interceptors as escorts.

(in reply to Almeron)

Post #: 13

RE: Air war - 12/2/2019 7:15:59 PM

James Taylor

Posts: 638
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Corpus Christi, Texas
Status: offline

Ditto the fighter bomber increase in tactical values, by 45 they should be 6.

_____________________________

SeaMonkey

(in reply to AlbertN)

Post #: 14