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Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study log... - 12/5/2019 11:14:41 PM   
KaiLae

 

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So, given that, I'm surely not a professional because I don't know what to do. Started playing with the sale. Biggest issue I have is that other than I can tell that X pile of stuff in the rear has to be moved to the front where it's needed, I don't know the best way of doing that. Any tips for learning that?
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RE: Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study... - 12/5/2019 11:24:28 PM   
inqistor


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Most times you have to load stuff on ships. And then choose path, which is free from enemy submarines. And add some escorting ships, if enemy have its own ships. And you need air control, where you want to unload all this stuff. It's really simple ;)

Two things:
1. Make sure, that stuff you want to move is not restricted
2. Check tables for port sizes. You want to load and unload from docked ships, to speed everything up.

Play Guadalcanal Scenario. You can practice all this on small map.

(in reply to KaiLae)
Post #: 2
RE: Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study... - 12/5/2019 11:25:28 PM   
KaiLae

 

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There seems to be a "computer control" option for this, though I haven't found a good description of it. Could someone explain this a bit?

(in reply to inqistor)
Post #: 3
RE: Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study... - 12/5/2019 11:41:16 PM   
Anachro


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Joined: 11/23/2015
From: The Coastal Elite
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Don't use computer control. It's bad. However, you can use the CS option to set up automated routes of your own choice. The CS option will cause a TF, once you've designated a start and end port, to continue that route in perpetuity, barring damage, etc. (you can choose if it picks up oil, fuel, supplies, resources, etc.)


(in reply to KaiLae)
Post #: 4
RE: Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study... - 12/6/2019 12:41:10 AM   
Ian R

 

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One of the reasons the IJ merchant marine performed so poorly, historically, was a failure to organise a proper convoy system until it was too late.

Apart from the obvious effect of unprotected ships being easy prey for the USN Gato/Balao subrons (which are more capable submersibles than any German U-boat before the schnorkel type revolutionised things), this also meant an equally wasteful lack of coordination.

Historically, the IJN controlled cargo boats went out with supplies for far flung garrisons, and came back empty.

At the same time, "civilian" economy cargo boats picking up resources/oil, were being sent out in ballast, while supplies for the NEI etc piled up waiting for a militarised ship to lift them. This led to the idiotic situation of empty xAKs passing each other going this way and that, wasting precious fuel, and put doubly at risk from Allied action.

No doubt you can find some sort of patrol boat or minesweeper or something to add to that CS convoy. Two are better, but that might be a stretch early on. Even if it does not have an ASW capability, a small escort boat with a 76mm gun or something might screen the xAKs from a night surface attack, or at least shoot back and damage the sub.

The other point is sometimes more micro-management work, and the Chichi-Jima supply run is not a good example to use, needs to be done to increase efficiency, so take say Manila,or Palembang.

Your Manila convoy should take supplies there, and bring back resources. Palembang - you can't load oil on xAKs, but you can inefficiently load fuel. So send supplies to Palembang to fix any damage to the oil-fields/refineries as early as possible (to get the best return on the expenditure), and bring back fuel to Japan.

Where the more work comes in when you want to for example, deliver supplies to Timor, then rout your cargo TF back via Balikpapan to pick up some fuel (or perhaps somewhere else to pick up resources, but note, you can get resources to Japan more easily by sucking them from the Asian mainland at Fusan and moving them 80 nm to Fukuoka). You have to do that manually, but I have no doubt you'll adopt a system where that convoy delivers supply to Koepang, is set to home base to Balikpapan, and you get in the habit of running a manual check of bases such as Balikpapan/Miri/Brunei/Palembang and filling up whatever has pulled in with fuel to haul it back to Japan.

The other point is to examine your refinery capacities against oil flows. You do not want to haul oil back to Japan unless it is surplus to local refinery requirements. But if there is surplus, every drop should go to Japan HI to be stockpiled.

The obvious "hub" places are the NEI oil fields, but, note the flows of oil across the ground to refineries, and the flows of fuel to larger ports. Miri/Brunei etc. Djambi -> Palembang (where refined into fuel) -> Oosthaven (where it can be loaded more efficiently for transport). You don't need to over-service any one place, but as you get into the game you will get more of a feel for whether you should take some of the Brunei oil before it goes to the Miri refinery, etc.

Whether you use a limited capability to repair industry to fix a refinery point, in preference to an oil point that has to be hauled home is something I'd like to see some Japanese old-hand opinion on - as an allied player I have only done a miniature reverse version of this in the late war to get fuel more efficiently to the front, and some oil down to OZ instead of hauling it from LAX.

I would tend to say fix the oil and ship the extra back to Japan, later on you will likely have excess refinery capacity there. A more experienced IJ player may have done a bit more cost/benefit analysis on that. One thing is for sure, is that in-game, fuel refined in the NEI is equivalent to fuel refined at Abadan or the CONUS, and IJ aviation fuel (represented by supply points) is the equivalent of USAAF high octane avgas... just another little advantage the IJ get to balance the game a bit.

TL/DR: Use your protected convoys to to ship war-fighting supplies/fuel from Japan to wherever you need it, and put in place a roughly consistent routing policy to help use your cargo boats more efficiently and bring raw materials back to Japan to be converted into more war fighting material. Requires some added micro-management, but I do not doubt you will develop a system that works for you.





_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

(in reply to Anachro)
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RE: Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study... - 12/6/2019 2:07:12 AM   
KaiLae

 

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Ok, so what I need to do is set up convoys as shown above in the graphic to everything that has people on it? And, large convoys (keeping in mind receiving port size) to important places?

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 6
RE: Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study... - 12/6/2019 9:15:47 AM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
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Working in logistics in volatile envornments... Logistics is my passion!


I think the advice you received above is just perfect.


Generally, people tend to work organising hubs and then from hubs they do send minor convoys to bases around. I do basically the same.


I just add few elements:

1) Bear in mind and "study" different load rates for different locations. A base such as Palembang, for example, loads differently from Oosthafen because of the presence of refineries.
2) Bear in mind and "study" the different loading/unloading rates for different ship classes. In general, the smaller the cargo per vessel and the easier it is to load/unload it, meaning that large ships are less efficient than smaller ones in terms of loading/unloading rates if the harbour is not big enough.
3) Take from the various sources on the forum or, better, develop your own "efficiency spreadsheet" where you rate the efficiency of your cargo classes. The easiest ones are the ones taking into consideration just fuel consumption, but it's a very complicated and broad subject if you want to go deeper.
4) Learn how to do a proper ASW. ASW is fundamental and you can run convoys in relatively unsafe ways if you have a strong ASW. It implies mines, night/day NavS, ASW-dedicated a/c and pilots, ASW-TFs.



I have a fairly simple organization.

For TKs/AOs:
- Smaller vessels (Mainzu Class and those 12knts per 1.250 capacity ones) take care of Miri/Palembang/Burma/Medan shipping to Singapore.
- Tonan Class are used to ship from Balikpapan to Truk or to Australia (I have Australian industry I somehow feed) alternatively.
- Smaller vessels ship from Babo and Boela to Babeldaob. Tarakan the same.
- In Java I increased HI in order to produce supplies and HI points directly on the spot and reduce the overall shippings from the island to Onshu. I rarely ship anything out of it. When I reach 170k I use the single, big, fast convoy on the route Singapore-Nagasaki to do a single run Java-Onshu. It happens once every 4 months roughly.
- Single, big, fast convoy from Singapore to Onshu. All the 19/18knts TKs are there and heavy escort. It runs continuously from Singapore to Onshu bringing FUEL or OIL depending on Singapore's stock when it leaves.
- Small 12knts TKs are used in small convoys (2-ships each) to ship OIL from Shakhalin and Formosa to Onshu.


I use 13knts AOs as either reserve or for additional shippings. 18/19knts AOs are always loaded and disbanded in useless random dots, together with their heavy escorts, in order to be ready for fleet actions.
Other small convoys take care of redestribution of FUEL from hubs to peripheral bases. I prefer using xAKs, though.


Resources.

- Shikuka (port lvl=7) to Wakkanai (port lvl = 7). 2 convoys alternating shippings.
- Hakodate (port lvl=7) to Ominato (port lvl = 7). 1 convoy
- Muroran (port lvl = 6) to Hirosaki (port lvl = 6). 1 convoy
- Sapporo (port lvl = 5) to either Ominato/Hirosaki or Niigata. 2 convoys.

I use xAKLs and slow Gozan-class ships for these convoys. They load/unload quickly and the time spent at sea it's little compared to the time spent in port, so it's better to have fuel inefficient ships which are cargo handling efficient instead.


For Fusan (port lvl = 8) I run a single convoy to Fukuoka.
Shangai to Nagasaki idem.


I do not ship supplies from DEI because I increased HI in Java and Singapore, not needing much more. For SouthPacific I use the production in Australia. I use Suva as a hub and then either small xAKLs TFs or directly PBs in fast transport (those carrying 1.000 supplies).
Therefore I generally don't ship resources from DEI to Onshu. Still, I generally ship resources from every location in the DEI, including those small islands which produce a little bit, to Singapore where I create a massive stock, ready to be shipped back to Onshu in case I need it later in the campaign. I use xAKL for smaller locations and few xAKs for more important ones such as Balikpapan or Java.
In Singapore I generally have few millions RES in mid-42. Way more in 43.
In one PBEM I decided instead to ship every RES back to Japan from DEI and India, which I conquered, and I organised huge convoys running from Calcutta to Singapore and then from Singapore to Onshu. We talk about 2-3 convoys of 180.000 capacity each running from India to Singapore and one of 180.000 from Singapore to Onshu. It's inefficient and useless to do so, but I liked the idea of shipping stuff back from India to Onshu and I did. I also ship huge quantities of supplies back to Singapore.
In my current PBEM in which I have Australia, I generally ship some supplies to Truk. I am now in the process of changing my routes and using xAKs to haul fuel on the way to Australia and bring back supplies (as mentioned above, currently I do use the Tonan-class TKs).


Broadly speaking, I try to have few major hubs, then some intermediate hub and then from these ones I ship to final destinations. An example is Truk: I ship a lot of stuff there, then I ship to intermediate hubs (such as Kwajalein for Marshalls and Tabiteuea for Gilberts/Ellice Islands). Then, from these intermediate hubs, I run convoys to final destinations. In Kwajalein, for example, I have organized 2 convoys. One is made of 3 xAKLs delivering supplies on a continuous basis to bases in the Marshalls. The other convoys is made of 3 fast-transport PBs which can deliver additional supplies in case of need. I generally establish also a backup hub for intermediate ones. For example, I have Ponape developed in case Kwajalein gets under excessive pressure: I do not ship out anything of these reserve hubs unless there is indeed an emergency.

Supply and fuel levels are totally dependent on the situation, therefore I cannot give any opinion on them. I generally aim for 50k supplies in intermediate hubs and 100k for major ones. With 30k for reserve hubs. Fuel is around 100k in major hubs and 30k in intermediate ones. Supply levels in peripheral bases is in the range of 15k, which should be enough to do a vigorous defence in case of enemy attack.
For bases which are quite isolated such as Wake I tend to increase the amount of stocked supplies, being in the range of 20-25k. Definitely too much and many would be destroyed by bombardaments in case of attack, but I do prefer to be on the safe side. Also, I don't like shipping often to those exposed bases, so I prefer to saturate the area with ASW assets, deliver a big convoy and then forget about supplying the base for a while.



In my games, 90% of cargo losses due to enemy activities happen in the last leg between intermediate hubs and peripheral bases. Losses between production centers and major hubs and between major hubs and intermediate centers are extremely rare, even in face of very strong subs activity.
I tend to avoid shortest routes, preferring more complex but safer ones. Being less predictable than the average player helps a lot, also because it usually forces the allied player to put his subs near your ports instead of putting them in the middle of the ocean and when they're near ports they have little effect if you provide sufficient ASW assets to cover the area.

_____________________________

Francesco

(in reply to KaiLae)
Post #: 7
RE: Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study... - 12/6/2019 10:09:46 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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The majority of this game is setting yourself up for future success by creating logistical systems.

1. What supplies/fuel do you need and where do you or will you need them?

2. what units do you need to get into place for the next ops and where do they need to move from? Are ships in place to pick them up?

3. What air support and naval support do you need in place and what will become your hubs for naval/air operations?

Most of this is just planning and thinking ahead. Of course you have to learn the nitty gritty of how to load ships in different modes (transport for units in Strat mode, amphibious for units in combat mode) for different cargos (oil/fuel/supplies/resources) and depending on which side you're playing these will be very different concerns.

So for more direct help post the side you're starting with, what the problems are you're facing and screenshots once you can to illustrate your questions.


_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to ITAKLinus)
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RE: Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study... - 12/6/2019 11:50:45 AM   
Trugrit


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From: North Carolina
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I don’t want you to get the idea that the Auto Convoy System is broken. It works as designed.

The Auto Convoy system is not “Bad”.
You just have to be very, very, very careful with it. It is for rear areas only.

Most players don’t use it because they want absolute control over their ships and convoys.

Here are some threads you can use:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3067490

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3588674

There are fine points to lots of this.
The Japanese have ships that can be converted back and forth
between troop transport and cargo transport.

That gets into ship conversion which is another deep topic but it is also important
when you are considering how to move supply.

Then there is what I call tactical supply. Supply in contested areas.

Supplies can be air moved and air dropped.
Subs can move supply.
Barges.

You need to study up on how Fast Transport (Tokyo Express) works:
The Japanese have a big advantage in this.
The keys being cargo capacity and speed which you can see on a ship’s screen.

I think you are beginning to realize that this is a very deep game.



< Message edited by Trugrit -- 12/6/2019 12:05:41 PM >

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 9
RE: Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study... - 12/7/2019 2:45:47 AM   
AW1Steve


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Watch "Victory at Sea". You'll soon learn the secret is 1)load a whole bunch of stuff on ships. 2) Move it to where it's needed. 3) unload. 4) reverse. Repeat. Ad nauseum.


Seriously, the best convoys are as big as you can make them. And they resemble rocket plumes. Or a old fashion "local" train. Take the whole gaggle to the 1st port , drop off the ships that have the stuff needed at that port. Move the rest to the next port. Repeat. again and again , till you hit the last stop in the chain. Then reverse , stopping at each port to pick up the now unloaded ships. Make sure you have plenty of naval air search along the intended route. When subs are sighted , steer around them. And it's not a bad idea to send a ASW force ahead up the intended route. Don't worry about sinking the subs, worry about avoiding them.

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RE: Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study... - 12/7/2019 2:28:16 PM   
Trugrit


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From: North Carolina
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Some players run large, some players don’t.

When I play the Japanese I never use the KB to go after cargo convoys.
The Japanese carriers are a strategic asset. I won’t risk the carriers and
the skilled Japanese pilots to attack cargo ships especially when I can’t
make a large dent in the Allied transport capacity anyway.

The KB burns too much fuel to just loiter around trying to attack cargo ships.

The two exceptions to this are very large cargo convoys and oilers and tankers.
Oilers and tankers are a very high priority for me.

It would be fun to send the KB after a 100 ship convoy but a very high risk operation.
I would probably have to run the KB silent for a period of time.

Finding a 100 ship convoy at sea is the hard part.
I have a method for that and if the KB is close by the convoy will never outrun it.

Fun, but it is just too high risk.

For the players who run 100 ship convoys I would be interested to know
your typical convoy composition with escorts?

The game limits you to 25 ships in a tanker task force.
The game limits you to 100 ships in a cargo task force.

The game will let you put tankers into cargo task forces as many as you want.

Do you mix them? Do you put any tankers in cargo task forces?
Do you ever put more than 25 tankers into a cargo task force?

For new players, here are a few threads on large convoys:

Convoy Big or Small:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3528609

Task Force Size:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2807427

Collisions:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3234738

Cargo TF ASW:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3288947




(in reply to AW1Steve)
Post #: 11
RE: Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study... - 12/7/2019 3:32:45 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
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As Japan:

I don't run 100-ships convoys. I seldom run very large convoys, still organised accordingly to speed (generally, 12-knts but I take in also 14knts classes).
I typically run these convoys (RES) from Singapore to Onshu in order to have a margin in the Home Islands in case of an early allied move in the North (Kurili/Hokkaido/Shakhalin). My aim is to have some millions excess resources in Onshu so that I can cope with a difficoul (or even closed) north route.

My organisation is pretty straightforward and it has 2 basic options:
A) I disband many cargoes in Singapore. I create a big TF which can dock (172.000ton IIRC) and I load it. Then I disband it and I create another one. And so on. When I have loaded each of the designated cargoes, I create a new TF and put it under heavy escort. Ratio of escorts is truly dependent on the game, but on average is roughly 10% of cargo ships (generally, PBs) plus 1 AV to do NavS. To this, I add 2 or 3 independent ASW TF, consisting of DDs and/or Es.
B) I make several 150.000ton cargo + 22.000ton escort convoys and I send them on a rolling bases from Singapore to Onshu.


These are the only, eventual, routes I do on a regular basis.



For tankers. I use only 19/18knts TKs from Singapore to Onshu and there are few of them. Only 15, IIRC. Thus, there is ample space for escorts. I generally put 10 escorts, all DDs and Es. Also, 2 ASW TF plus 1 TF with a 21knts CVE to provide ASW. It's going way too heavy, but I prefer to be on the safe side, considering that I ship roughly 170.000 OIL/FUEL per run and that I have few fast TKs.





As Allied player it's highly dependent on the situation. In general, I don't like huge convoys for the first year of the war, but exceptions occurr.
I tend to develop ASAP Thaiti and, while I develop the island and the surrounding area, I unload big quantities in the harbor there. Docking limits prevent the use of big convoys. I tried to have one big convoy split at arrival but it's too time consuming for me, both in terms of loading/unloading and in terms of micromanagement.

As soon as Thaiti is developed, I start regular convoys from USA to Australia. They are quite dependent on ships available, but I tend to make very very large convoys (80-ships) with all the escorts I have at hand.
Big problem is that, if the Japanese holds both Fiji and Raoul Island, he can spot you and engage. Therefore it's not much a matter of keeping at distance subs, it's a matter of risking engagements with IJN in case they spot you and react immediately. In this case I run big convoys anyway and I take the risk, confident that my NavS and pressure over Raoul Island can keep the enemy inactive.

I "convert" the Hermes as ASW platform for TK convoys from USA to Australia, also. I generally try to build a huge fuel stockpile in Thaiti at the beginning of the game and then, from there, I run small convoys to Australia if Fiji/Raoul Island are in Japanese hands. I use 3 TKs plus 3 escorts in these little convoys.
If I control the route, I run a 20-TK convoy with 5 escorts plus the afromentioned Hermes in a dedicated ASW TF. Plus another couple of ASW TF. I refuel at sea, embedding a couple of additional AOs just for that: it gives me the opportunity to have relatively short-legged escorts part of the TF.
Refuel harbour is Thaiti.


There aren't other large convoys I run continuosly as allied player. I prefer small-seized ones because of the inherent flexibility they give and because the biggest threat are SCTFs and KB in its various configurations more than subs.

_____________________________

Francesco

(in reply to Trugrit)
Post #: 12
RE: Amateurs study tactics. Professional soldiers study... - 12/8/2019 7:02:29 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

Palembang (where refined into fuel) -> Oosthaven (where it can be loaded more efficiently for transport).


I don't know where this came from, and I heard it said before. However it is untrue.

Read 6.3.3.2.5 Port load rate adjustments. P127. "Refineries and oil production facilities at a port increase the load rate..."

With those adjustments it better to move the stuff straight out of Palembang.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to ITAKLinus)
Post #: 13
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