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[FIXED] 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept

 
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[FIXED] 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/11/2019 1:29:08 AM   
mavfin

 

Posts: 274
Joined: 6/22/2010
Status: offline 		Save+Autosaves for 100 seconds
Still have a hostile in the air, but the interceptors are going home on their own...again. Still doing the same stuff.

You still have more work to do to have a simulator you can actually depend on to reproduce missions properly. Going to make the player's job easier when your air intercept missions turn for home 2 minutes after launch...


Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 12/15/2019 10:38:33 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/11/2019 1:46:40 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		What were the targets for the intercept mission? I couldn't find any listed in the mission "Ready 5".

(in reply to mavfin)
Post #: 2
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/11/2019 2:23:54 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I ran the 100 autosave eight times. Once I got the RTB after 4-5 minutes and all Mig-21s were destroyed. All the rest ran until bingo.

When I run the 80 autosave, Savage returns to base after either Mig-21 64 or 65 is killed. Not sure what it means, but its some kind of pattern.

edit: This might be working as designed. I am pretty sure the Savage flight is returning to base after the unit that triggered the intercept is killed. I tried deleting all the blue flights so none of the Migs get killed. Savage went into attack on its own and didn't return to base until some of the Migs were killed. I then used the 100 autosave and deleted all the Migs. Within a minute, Savage was RTB. I didn't try changing ROEs to see if it would attack other Migs when the triggering Migs were killed. This is just a guess at this point.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 12/11/2019 2:44:49 AM >

(in reply to thewood1)
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RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/11/2019 2:25:41 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Also, I set up a bunch of intercept missions in Op Brass Drum. None of them return to base early. Not what is different about that scenario.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 4
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/11/2019 3:27:18 AM   
mavfin

 

Posts: 274
Joined: 6/22/2010
Status: offline 		So, you look at the save and tell me why those are going home. It's an open air intercept mission. Identify and intercept. If they've changed the functionality of the mission, fine, but someone needs to note that the design has changed. If you can *only* depend on air intercepts working if you pre-define the targets, then someone needs to put that in the manual. Which is it?

I await that news, if it's coming, otherwise the devs need to find out why it's doing it.

I can run this same thing in CMANO and never do that with any hostiles in the air.

Also, why would I have pre-made targets an in auto-intercept mission that I, by definition, don't know what I'm facing. Many times this situation comes in much bigger scenarios than the small one I use to test things with.

If it won't work right in this small, simple scenario, a scenario designer can't depend on it working in a bigger one.

Again, if the design is not supposed to support this anymore, then, please tell me about it. I haven't seen anything in the manual about it being changed.

quote:


When I run the 80 autosave, Savage returns to base after either Mig-21 64 or 65 is killed. Not sure what it means, but its some kind of pattern.


Hmm. Go look at the message log, in raw mode, and see which contact was detected first. Is it going home once that is dead? If so, *is that actually WAD*? That isn't how it's supposed to work, is it? I can see it going home when there's no hostiles in the air, but if the death of the first hostile seen possibly triggers the RTB while other hostiles are still around, then, imo, that's wrong.

I don't care if it only happens 1 in 20 times. I've seen it way too much since CMO came out. Unless someone tells me that it's actually WAD to do that, it should never send interceptors home (Mission Over) with hostiles in the air. Now, if they Bingo, or Shotgun, or Winchester, i.e. loadout or fuel conditions, that shouldn't show as (Mission Over).




< Message edited by mavfin -- 12/11/2019 3:48:27 AM >

(in reply to thewood1)
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RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/11/2019 3:59:12 AM   
mavfin

 

Posts: 274
Joined: 6/22/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I ran the 100 autosave eight times. Once I got the RTB after 4-5 minutes and all Mig-21s were destroyed. All the rest ran until bingo.

When I run the 80 autosave, Savage returns to base after either Mig-21 64 or 65 is killed. Not sure what it means, but its some kind of pattern.

edit: This might be working as designed. I am pretty sure the Savage flight is returning to base after the unit that triggered the intercept is killed. I tried deleting all the blue flights so none of the Migs get killed. Savage went into attack on its own and didn't return to base until some of the Migs were killed. I then used the 100 autosave and deleted all the Migs. Within a minute, Savage was RTB. I didn't try changing ROEs to see if it would attack other Migs when the triggering Migs were killed. This is just a guess at this point.


So, are you saying that it's WAD when it kills that unit? So, if even there are hostiles in the air, it should RTB?

Then why isn't it RTBing already in this save? I want to know: Is this early RTB something WAD, or is it a bug? Make up your mind, Wood1. If it's WAD, why isn't it already headed for home in this save? (This is a continuation of the 60-second autosave from the earlier post.) If it's WAD, it should be somewhat predictable. it's not, imo. Something's not right here.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by mavfin -- 12/11/2019 4:00:01 AM >

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 6
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/11/2019 6:00:37 AM   
guanotwozero

 

Posts: 651
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline 		I've noticed that the loadout settings for "BARCAP Heavy" specifies RTB after one engagement. That's a "gotcha" that has flummuxed me a few times. Such policy can be changed in the Doctrine settings, but hasn't been in that last save.

I ran it for a little while and it didn't RTB - I don't know why. I'll try the scenario from the start later on.

Edit:
Where is this scenario? It looks like one of the original CMANO air tutorials, but I've no idea where it is in the current CMO set.

< Message edited by guanotwozero -- 12/11/2019 6:30:16 AM >

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RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/11/2019 10:43:02 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Don't bother even trying to help this guy. Check out his attitude with someone trying to help him. He has some serious anger issues.

Just pointing out I am just running your saves and guessing at the issue you are seeing. It might be WAD. Maybe the design isn't right. But if your going to have that attitude, I'll pay you back for your game personally so you can stop getting so mad all the time and get some help.

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 8
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/11/2019 11:17:30 AM   
guanotwozero

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Also, I set up a bunch of intercept missions in Op Brass Drum. None of them return to base early. Not what is different about that scenario.

I notice than in the above save, the Tomcat loadout specifies RTB after one BVR engagement, whereas in Op Brass Drum the Super Hornets with AtoA loadout specify RTB after one engagement with BVR and WVR; they'd stay out until they get into a knife fight.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 9
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/11/2019 11:42:18 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Yeah, its any number of things. Instead of asking for help, the OP let his rage thing kick in. I hope he refunds the game so we stop getting his anger issues bleeding through.

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 10
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/11/2019 9:38:05 PM   
mavfin

 

Posts: 274
Joined: 6/22/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero

I've noticed that the loadout settings for "BARCAP Heavy" specifies RTB after one engagement. That's a "gotcha" that has flummuxed me a few times. Such policy can be changed in the Doctrine settings, but hasn't been in that last save.

I ran it for a little while and it didn't RTB - I don't know why. I'll try the scenario from the start later on.

Edit:
Where is this scenario? It looks like one of the original CMANO air tutorials, but I've no idea where it is in the current CMO set.

Yeah, but in the original save, the non auto-save one, it's going home before any engagement happens from the intercept group, and the patrol group is down to Sparrows, and about to start tossing winders.

Also, if it's going RTB for loadout, shouldn't it say that, not RTB(Mission Over)? Look at the named save, and look at the status, and how far from the airfield it is.

FWIW, if I load the autosave files, I get much the same results you do. They don't go home on me. But, if I start from the beginning, and let the patrol launch on its own when the bogies show up, very often (too often) it goes home w/o firing a shot, with hostile a/c still in the air, like the named save shows. If you pop up in the middle, or even if you go to the RTB-ing intercept group, unassign it, wait 10 seconds, and put it back in the mission, it acts pretty normal.

There's an early trigger to RTB somewhere. I've been saying this for a month. It it's already logged and being worked on, please say so, and I'll shut up about it.

Also, the scenario is the old air tutorial from CMANO, updated to 480. Simple, but you should know what to expect, and less variables.

From all the above, *what is the trigger for RTB(Mission Over)*. That needs to be examined. If someone on the dev team could define it for me, then I'll know what to expect or not to expect. So far, no one has told me that the expectation is any different than CMANO. If it is, please let us know.

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 11
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/12/2019 7:49:43 AM   
guanotwozero

 

Posts: 651
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline 		I agree - it sure looks like a problem, but it's hard to tell what's happening from a save after the events that change things.

Could you put up an earlier save from before the engagements?

Edit: I can't check the original scenario right now - I'm currently running CMO on a machine without CMANO while I wait for a replacement part for my main PC.

< Message edited by guanotwozero -- 12/12/2019 7:54:02 AM >

(in reply to mavfin)
Post #: 12
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/13/2019 6:59:53 PM   
bostjan

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 2/23/2019
Status: offline 		I prepared another test scenario illustrating the problem:
West group consists of 20 aircraft assigned to air intercept mission.
East group is attacking with 40 aircraft.
All air interceptors take off. But only half of them actually attack the incoming group, the other half return to base without taking a shot.

Ver. 1121.2

Attachment (1)

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 13
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/13/2019 7:28:46 PM   
guanotwozero

 

Posts: 651
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bostjan
I prepared another test scenario illustrating the problem:

In the save, has the engagement already happened? I see a missile in the air but no hostiles.

If so, it's hard to work out what's happened after the event.

(in reply to bostjan)
Post #: 14
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/14/2019 8:51:03 AM   
bostjan

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 2/23/2019
Status: offline 		The scenario starts beefore any engagement takes place. You should see only early warning aircraft in the air. No missiles at the start.
I testeted/ played it in scenario editor using 5x to max speed.

Scenario starts at 13:03Z
Westrn group:
13:19 first group of air interceptors takes off
13:33 secnd group of air interceptors takes off
13:38-13:40 second group turns back to base before making an engagment (see the screeshot of that moment)


Attachment (1)

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 15
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/15/2019 9:18:42 AM   
guanotwozero

 

Posts: 651
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline 		I had a look - that attachment only contains an image. Do you have a save?

(in reply to bostjan)
Post #: 16
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/15/2019 9:24:24 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bostjan

I prepared another test scenario illustrating the problem:
West group consists of 20 aircraft assigned to air intercept mission.
East group is attacking with 40 aircraft.
All air interceptors take off. But only half of them actually attack the incoming group, the other half return to base without taking a shot.

Ver. 1121.2


I see it. Thanks, that setup was very helpful, and something is definitely "off". Will dig deeper.

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(in reply to bostjan)
Post #: 17
RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/15/2019 10:37:43 AM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Found it, fixed for the next update.

Props to bostjan for the crystal-clear save. More saves and step-by-steps (and less drama) wins the day!

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 12/15/2019 10:38:14 AM >

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RE: 1121.1 Still early RTB for Air Intercept - 12/15/2019 11:38:22 AM   
guanotwozero

 

Posts: 651
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline 		Ah, now I get it - I had reloaded the .save instead of the new .scen - apologies!

(in reply to Dimitris)
Post #: 19
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