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[ADDED] SAR and ISAR radar should have classification ability

 
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[ADDED] SAR and ISAR radar should have classification a... - 12/14/2019 10:37:50 AM   
gosnold

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		Currently, it seems radars are only able to classify target if the target is airborne and the radar has nctr property. This means that even advanced maritime surveillance radars are not able to differentiate between a fishing boat and an aircraft carrier.
This is not realistic as many modern radars are able to perform SAR (synthetic aperture radar, exploiting the motion of the radar compared to the target) and even ISAR (inverse SAR, exploiting the motion of the target) to build detailed pictures of the targets they have detected.

See for instance the AN-ZPY3 on the MQ-4 Triton:
https://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabilities/MFAS/PublishingImages/pageImages/tn_mfas_infographic.jpg
or the Thales searchmaster radar on the Atlantique II PATMAR:
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/searchmaster
https://thalesgroup.com/sites/default/files/database/d7/asset/document/searchmaster_gb_2016.pdf

SAR satellites are also able to build pictures of ships:
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Ship-identi-fi-cation-results-by-the-integration-of-SAR-and-AIS-Ship-pictures-from_fig1_269381361


So I am advocating for adding a ground and surface classification capability to SAR satellites, and to modern surface/ground search SAR radars. High-resolution SAR radar should even be able to perform identification (the Tandem-X SAR satellite has a 25cm resolution for instance), but it's hard to get good data on the resolution performance so we might leave it to classification only for now.

Also, something that might be added to all radars is a "coarse classification" capability based on target RCS: when surveying a wide area and looking for an aircraft carrier, a 70s PATMAR plane will probably be able to ignore the faint targets that appear on its scope. So showing information like "SKUNK 1- unknown Surface contact (large RCS) would allow the player to make more informed decisions, in a more realistic way. The same could be done for planes, jet liners would likely not be confused with fighters even with an old radar.

What do you think?

< Message edited by Dimitris -- 4/20/2020 9:45:27 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: SAR and ISAR radar - 12/14/2019 10:56:19 AM   
bradinggs


Posts: 362
Joined: 7/17/2013
Status: offline 		I agree and like. Perhaps an option to enable the autoclassification so if you want the service of adding the AIS data with the radar data then you can and then if you want to disable it for any reason, that would be a nice.

< Message edited by bradinggs -- 12/14/2019 11:31:03 AM >

(in reply to gosnold)
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RE: SAR and ISAR radar - 12/14/2019 1:48:45 PM   
KC45


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Joined: 11/23/2017
From: JPN
Status: offline 		There is SAR property already in the game. They can classify types of units.




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RE: SAR and ISAR radar - 12/14/2019 2:08:14 PM   
gosnold

 

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Status: offline 		Do you have a scenario showing it working? I set up one with a MQ-4C and the SAR satellite Tandem-X, and neither could classify surface contacts.

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RE: SAR and ISAR radar - 12/14/2019 2:28:23 PM   
KC45


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From: JPN
Status: offline 		Use S-3B, they should have ISAR radar.
I remember it actually works in CoWDLC's Armed diplomacy.

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RE: SAR and ISAR radar - 12/14/2019 7:18:21 PM   
Zanthra

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KC45

Use S-3B, they should have ISAR radar.
I remember it actually works in CoWDLC's Armed diplomacy.


I tried an S-3 Viking with low cloud cover 5-7k feet. Target vessel with EMCON restricted. No further identification beyond "SKUNK" no matter how close it got (unless the viking got under 5k feet for visual).

< Message edited by Zanthra -- 12/14/2019 7:20:00 PM >

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RE: SAR and ISAR radar - 12/14/2019 8:07:56 PM   
LargeDiameterBomb

 

Posts: 80
Joined: 3/3/2019
Status: offline 		This is an excellent idea that I have contemplated myself. My only comment is that preferably classification and identification of targets should take a reasonable amount of time (I guess somewhere between 15-60 seconds Note guess, I could be wildly off) which simulates the pilot switching the radar to SAR or ISAR mode, getting an image on his screen and the pilot recognizing and becoming reasonably sure about his classification) and have a parameter that limits how many targets can be classified or identified in a specific amount of time so that not all unknown skunks within classification range is classified in an instant. A typical case where this would matter would be a F-16 with a late model AN/APG-68 radar approaching a SAG below radar horizon to avoid being fired at by SAMs doing a quick pop-up and instantly classifying all vessels which is not so realistic.

Classification range should also be affected by the vessels bearing versus the approaching aircraft with vessels with the bow pointed directly towards the aircraft being harder to classify. This is perhaps the most important thing.

To illustrate how it preferably would appear in game, let's say a section of late model AN/APG-68-equipped F-16s at 25 k ft on a patrol over water is at the possible classification distance of a SAG consisting of 4 vessels of about the same size (2 Sovremenny DDGs and 2 Udaloy DDGs), all previously detected by the aircrafts radar, at 10:00:00 Zulu. Let's say classification time has been set at 30 seconds for this radar with a corresponding maximum of 2 units classified per minute accordingly. At 10:00:00 Zulu the game would show four unclassified skunks, at 10:00:30 a randomized contact or perhaps the contact with the largest length in the SAG would switch to a DDG, at 10:01:00 the next ship would switch to a DDG, at 10:01:30 the next contact would be classified and the last at 10:02:00.

Also, if identification is implemented ID'ing should take much longer, require shorter ranges and a contact almost showing his broadside towards the identifying aircraft. An aircraft approaching a vessel at 50 nautical miles at low height with the vessel's bearing towards the aircraft being 0 degrees should in my opinion be almost completely unable to identify the vessel (Unless a register of how specific visual signature each surface vessel unit has - Ie how unique it's looks are from the front, side and rear is implemented - something which seems very cumbersome to do for a small, small reward).
Perhaps, if ID'ing is to be implemented a MPA tag or something like that should be attached to aircrafts adept at identifying naval vessels by SAR (There are not too many MPA aircraft so adding the tag would not be too cumbersome) which would signal that the aircraft is better at classifying/identifying vessels or perhaps at all able to identify vessels with the help of SAR (Think of a F-15C with a pilot almost certainly not that well-trained in identifying ships, having quite a high workload in a cramped cabin with no space for manuals for identification vs a P-3C Orion with a SAR-capable radar where the radar operator has one job only and can be expected to be quite adept at identifying ships with the help of SAR and the aircraft having a large cabin with space for manuals for identification - I don't know if aircraft carry these manuals but it would definitely make sense if they did).

Perhaps the tag later could be used to make these aircraft better at classifying and identifying vessels with electro-optical sensors as well. Likewise the time-to-classify/identify concept and maximum-objects-classified/identified-per-minute could be used for all electro-optical sensors when classifying any object to make the game more realistic.


Of course you could make SAR classification/ID even more realistic AND thus more complicated to implement but this seems like a workable compromise to a layman. If it's not, just take it as a suggestion delivered in the spirit of making the game more realistic for the enjoyment of all players and the enrichment of the developers.

(in reply to KC45)
Post #: 7
RE: SAR and ISAR radar - 12/14/2019 8:44:27 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 6529
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		Only the most modern and advanced satellite systems have the ability to signal/image process and ID exact ship types. It also requires some significant network capability to get it to operational units in a timely manner. There are all kinds of issues with analyzing images onboard a satellite. Most systems require on-ground processing and then it has to be sent up the chain to the operational units.

You might want to do some deeper research on how data is forwarded to the units in the kill chain and make sure that the time frame of any scenario matches that. Also keep in mind that the field of view of the radar systems in orbit are relatively narrow at high resolutions. That means something has to point the high res satellite imaging in the ballpark.

(in reply to LargeDiameterBomb)
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RE: SAR and ISAR radar - 12/14/2019 9:07:11 PM   
KC45


Posts: 240
Joined: 11/23/2017
From: JPN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zanthra

quote:

ORIGINAL: KC45

Use S-3B, they should have ISAR radar.
I remember it actually works in CoWDLC's Armed diplomacy.


I tried an S-3 Viking with low cloud cover 5-7k feet. Target vessel with EMCON restricted. No further identification beyond "SKUNK" no matter how close it got (unless the viking got under 5k feet for visual).


I check it and you are true.

Seems like Devs know this issue, but they don't have much interest on this topic.
Here is a thread two years ago.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4379690&mpage=1�

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RE: SAR and ISAR radar - 12/15/2019 9:38:15 AM   
gosnold

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KC45
I check it and you are true.

Seems like Devs know this issue, but they don't have much interest on this topic.
Here is a thread two years ago.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4379690&mpage=1�


Thanks, I had forgotten about this post. However I think there are two separate issues:

1) Ground search radars have an extremely small initial detection range (if they are not GMTI). As Dimitris said in the quoted thread, ". It's a delicate subject, because the flip-side of it is units legitimately using ground clutter to hide themselves (e.g. small ships close to the coast, or vehicles in rough terrain). " That's very true, and how to accurately represent wide-area search in the presence of ground clutter is a hard question for the game designers. As such, it is out of scope of the Tech support forum.

2) Imaging radars (SAR and ISAR) that have detected the target by themselves, or been given the location of the target by a third party, are unable to classify it. I think that's fair game for the tech support forum, because it is a case of a feature not working as designed: the position of the target is known, so ground clutter vs area search issues do not matter, but the radar still is not working as advertized.
I propose to solve it the following way:
-initial detection ranges stay the same as currently
-for surface targets, give classification ability to radars with SAR or ISAR in the name or with the SAR tag. This represents operation against moving targets, which degrades the resolution of SAR sensors.
-for ground targets, give classification and identification ability to radars with SAR in the name or with the SAR tag. This is because against fixed targets SAR has better resolution.
-these classification and identification abilities work at the full radar range (ie surface search detection range), since they do not represent wide area search
-Arguably all AESA radars post-2000s should be able to perform SAR

3) bonus: detection ranges for radars should not be reduced if the target already has a moderately accurate initial detection from another sensor. In that case, it's no longer a wide area search problem, so the radars should be working at full radar ranges (same as surface search range).

(in reply to KC45)
Post #: 10
RE: SAR and ISAR radar - 12/24/2019 3:40:26 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2816
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: offline 		Logged for investigation.

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RE: SAR and ISAR radar - 4/20/2020 9:45:06 PM   
Dimitris

 

Posts: 13282
Joined: 7/31/2005
Status: offline 		Added for one of the next update releases: SAR/ISAR radars can now classify targets if they are close enough.

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RE: SAR and ISAR radar - 5/3/2020 7:58:56 PM   
gosnold

 

Posts: 233
Joined: 7/10/2013
Status: offline 		Thanks a lot CMO team!

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