Mortar "No Clear Shot"???

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Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 11/27/2019 8:13:59 PM

Markowicz

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I am interpreting this snapshot as; the mortar crew can't fire at the left BAR team on the hill, which is in his line of sight, because the infantry and vehicle are in the line of fire, preventing them from doing so. How is this a problem for a mortar crew?

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 11/28/2019 1:34:55 PM

wodin

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No ammo left most likely. Should say that really.

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 11/28/2019 10:28:38 PM

Markowicz

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The battle just started. They have yet to expend a single round. He has 21 rounds, doesn't he?

< Message edited by Markowicz -- 11/28/2019 10:51:13 PM >

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 11/29/2019 12:52:38 PM

slaphappypappy

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I have a thread with problems with mortars also.
Unfortunately the developers don't have a clue.

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 11/29/2019 5:10:21 PM

SteveMcClaire

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Thanks for the screenshot Markowicz. Mortar teams do evaluate the shot differently if they have line of sight vs. no line of sight though this is clearly not working as intended.

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/5/2019 7:13:10 PM

STIENER

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ive seen some other posts here steve that say that mortars are again the super weapon...a/t guns have no chance against mortars....2 or 3 rds and there done. this has been an ongoing CC thing for along time...trying to find balance in the mortars. even the fact that mortars can destroy open topped vehicles. the chances of dropping a mortar rd into the top of an open topped vehicle is enormous. but worse is a/t gun non survivability. mortars should supress and a/t gun but not destroy it unless a lot of rds are used. can we look into this steve?

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/6/2019 1:20:38 AM

Markowicz

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I have had a lot of success using mortars against different units. Whether or not there are super weapons, I can't really say. Put it this way, I never want to go to battle without them. AT guns don't have a long life expectancy in a battle anyway. They usually get off a few shots and are targeted with whatever weapons are available. In this game, the guns are readily mobile and the smart gun crew will take a few shots and then displace. Then they can avoid "super" mortar attacks. Except, of course, the 88 which brings me back to the lack of vehicle loading/towing capabilities. Watch a few of the You Tube videos and see if the mortars consistently take out guns on 2 or 3 shots. I compiled a playlist of about 140 videos in English from a lot of players, including myself.

Oh, and who did Col. Brandt send out to take out that Russian mortar crew, anyway???

< Message edited by Markowicz -- 12/6/2019 1:53:36 AM >

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/6/2019 2:05:35 AM

slaphappypappy

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I hate to admit it, but mortars are big in this game.
German 81 mm's are deadly and the 60 mm 's are pretty deadly too. Half-tracks don't stand a chance and the AI won't move them once they come under fire. All you have to do is aim anywhere close and you are sure to render them useless within a few rounds.
In the beginning of a campain game they are not too accurate, but after a couple of battles they improve greatly and are indespensible. Now against a human player maybe they aren't so big. I don't have that experience.

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/6/2019 2:40:10 AM

Markowicz

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So, what I'm hearing you say is exactly what I observed myself; The mortars work precisely as they are designed, a deadly weapon in capable hands. The problem lies in the AI's inability to respond properly to being subjected to a mortar attack.

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/6/2019 2:41:59 AM

STIENER

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there in lies another rub Markowicz....in real life ..with out a gun tractor...guns are not readily mobile. usually there in a prepared position when on defence and in an ambush mod ...camouflaged..which would make them hard to spot even after the 1st couple of shots. yes... a crew could move them a few yards...but seriously...man handleing a gun as big as a german 75 or even a yank 57 mm any distance just isn't happening in real life. so theres another thing bogus in TBF. back to my point that mortars should not be able to take out a gun and crew in 2 or 3 shots....again...unless the mortar has LOS and even if it has LOS...it still has to walk the rds in on the gun...it takes more than 2 or 3 rds to do that....a gun that's in a prepared position will be able to sustain a mortar attack unless it get a direct hit...again...not easy to do...especially if there is no LOS. suppression ..yes. hitting a moving open topped vehicle when u don't have LOS...almost impossible. there armoured for a reason. as I said...this has been an issue in CC for along time...PITF and GTC did a good job with mortars...you had to call in the mortar stonk...that took time.. then the mortar fired a 3 or 4 shot salvo into the area...the more fire missions or stonks the closer the rds got onto target. this worked like a real mortar firing with a spotter.

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/6/2019 2:46:37 AM

Markowicz

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Have you tried out the Italian 45mm mortars yet???

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/6/2019 2:13:17 PM

Markowicz

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Now that you mention it, there are a LOT of features from PITF and GTC that I wish were incorporated into this game and the mortar mechanics were actually sound in those two games. But, I do think this 3D version is exciting and fun to play and hopefully it will continue to evolve and become even better. BIGGER MAPS is one thing I'd like to see along with a "live " border area where ordnance exploding along the border (out of bounds) still affect units nearby. I think balance is the key. Sometimes realism must take a backseat to play-ability. I learned this playing F-19 Stealth Fighter and Gunship, two of Sid Meier's Microprose games I played incessantly, back in the day, on my Commodore 64. I realized then that I don't actually want to learn how to fly an extremely complicated stealth fighter or an Apache. I want to have fun pretending I'm doing so while I blow the **** out of the enemy and I want to be able to win more often than not.

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/6/2019 8:43:52 PM

STIENER

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agreed....to a point. what I don't like ...as you say....are features that work, that are left out. matrix did it with PITF and GTC when they went from LSA. this mortar issue has been ongoing in all CC's till PIYF and GTC...they fixed it with a good realistic system....now they dropped it and its an issue for players and realism.
so how about it Steve Mcclaire? can we have a look at it please?

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/9/2019 3:15:57 PM

Markowicz

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Check it out...

https://youtu.be/V2QlzzsBK1o?t=950

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/9/2019 5:42:06 PM

SteveMcClaire

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The mortar mechanics in TBF are very similar to PITF/GTC. The mortar fires ranging shots until it gets a hit close to the target and then it records the target and fires for effect. If you shoot at a pre-recorded target it goes straight to FFE.

PITF/GTC had a timed delay when the mortars were ranging in while TBF has actual projectiles in flight and the mortar unit waits for each round to land (plus a few seconds to adjust) before firing the next ranging shot. This can result in quicker ranging-in if you get lucky but in most cases it's roughly the same.

The youtube video shows two 8cm mortar teams shooting at a gun -- one mortar team looks like it has LOS to the gun and it gets a good first shot and goes to FFE. This can happen and having LOS will reduce the number of ranging shots but it won't happen every time. The mortar without LOS bangs away for a while before it registers the target.

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/9/2019 8:36:54 PM

Markowicz

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Thanks Steve. I'm still on the fence about this issue...

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/12/2019 5:02:51 PM

Markowicz

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This issue of No Clear Shot has been addressed in Build 1.0.7. Thanks guys...

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/20/2019 5:56:37 AM

GoodGuy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER
but seriously...man handleing a gun as big as a german 75 or even a yank 57 mm any distance just isn't happening in real life.

The German 75-mm PaK weighed 1,425 kg (3141.5 lb), and that's just a tick more than the weight of a compact car like the Volkswagen Golf. Relocating such a biggie was cumbersome, of course, but very well possible. Such gun usually came with harnesses, so that the gun could be pulled by the troops when halftracks or tractors weren't around. Obviously, this wasn't an option during fast retreats or for long distances, but it enabled German AT units to relocate their guns, say to get them to more favorable positions with better LOS/LOF, or to cover situations where the towing vehicle broke down (and where troops had to find some army horses, first).

This pic was taken in Normandy, France, in October or November, 1943:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-296-1688-25%2C_Nordfrankreich%2C_Soldaten_mit_7%2C5cm_Pak.jpg

The US 57-mm M1 AT gun (based on the British 6-pounded) weighed way less (1,140 kg = 2,520 lb), which allowed for somewhat easier manual relocation, at least on flat terrain. For the Normandy (and Market Garden) glider landings, the Airborne Command rejected the M1, but adopted the British 6-pounder on a narrow MkIII carriage (designed for glider use), which reduced the weight signific., so that it could be pulled by a jeep (or relocated manually by the troops - without harnesses).

< Message edited by GoodGuy -- 12/20/2019 6:21:40 AM >

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/20/2019 8:00:56 AM

STIENER

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nice picture......looks like 13 men pulling/pushing that 75 mm up the muddy road...not under fire. I didn't say it couldn't be done or wouldn't be done in real life...I said " man handleing a gun that size or even the 57 mm any distance " just isn't happening in real life.
what I should have said was...man handleing a gun as big as a german 75 or even a yank 57 mm any distance just isn't happening on the CC battle field while being under fire during a battle...the key being under fire... ..and IMO they didn't get moved very far in real life either under fire during a battle. especially with a 5 man crew plus ammo.

I believe in the TBF guns are be man handled considerable distances to avoid mortar fire and the such.

but your correct...its very well possible.... depending on the circumstances im sure.

< Message edited by STIENER -- 12/20/2019 8:02:34 AM >

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/20/2019 1:26:01 PM

GoodGuy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

nice picture......looks like 13 men pulling/pushing that 75 mm up the muddy road...not under fire. I didn't say it couldn't be done or wouldn't be done in real life...I said " man handleing a gun that size or even the 57 mm any distance " just isn't happening in real life.
what I should have said was...man handleing a gun as big as a german 75 or even a yank 57 mm any distance just isn't happening on the CC battle field while being under fire during a battle...the key being under fire... ..and IMO they didn't get moved very far in real life either under fire during a battle. especially with a 5 man crew plus ammo.

Correct.
In this case, 5 or 6 guys are pulling the gun and are using those harnesses, btw., and the guys pushing are just helping to get it through the mud. It looks like the guy going backwards is supposed to control the balance, so that the gun mounts don't swing upwards or back down into the mud. This looks rather like a training exercise, especially since the pic was taken in 1943, in occupied France.
Inside villages or next to roads, such guns could be (and were) relocated manually regularly, to cater for shifting threats. But this wasn't an option when under fire, of course. A PaK 40 had a crew of 5, so relocating it without additional helping hands (and towing vehicle) would only happen on paved roads or city environments, in most cases, and for very short distances only. The halftracks Sd.Kfz.10 and 11 used to be the dedicated vehicles for towing AT guns and artillery pieces, IF the unit was motorized. If it was a non-motorized unit, horses had to do the job.

There should be a routine in the game that makes the crews tired after say 50-100 meters (not sure how big the maps are), so that players (or AI) can't sneak up (and cheat) on each and every enemy position. I remember that large AT guns moved in slomo mode even just across the smallest roads in the old CC games, which was realistic. In reality, an 88-mm gun couldn't be pulled anymore, though.

The lower calibre At guns and the le.IG 18 (crew: 6) used to be man-handled often, though, even though the leIG still weighed 405 kg in ride mode.

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RE: Mortar "No Clear Shot"??? - 12/20/2019 9:07:28 PM

SteveMcClaire

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In TBF the movement speed of guns is based on the weight of the gun and the number of crew members available to push it. But I think it is safe to say that the typical in-game pushing speed is generous. This is a bit of a compromise for game play though I think the guns are still slow enough that moving them any great distance is usually not worth it.

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