TOAW IV is basically unplayable

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TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/27/2019 11:37:29 AM

jeffnward

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At least that's my perception. Having decided to play a few scenarios this yuletide break, I've been more than disappointed with this venerable game.

I've been playing the Korea 50-51 scenario only to repeatedly watch the UN forces be completely destroyed because they're never in command control - and that includes air units. It's not a whole lot of fun to watch the North Koreans march down the peninsula while none of your units even gets a chance to move. I know you can turn command and control off, but it was never this bad in previous versions.

On the rare occasion that the UN can develop a reasonable perimeter, the Communist forces always seem to be able to bludgeon their way through regardless of anything the UN player does. It's not like you have a whole lot of choices with those limited early game units.

I'm usually able to do a little better than the historic forces did, but the historical Pusan Perimeter is simply a fantasy in this scenario. Then I tried some of the North Africa scenarios and whoever goes first decimates the other side and automatically wins.

I used to do quite well in earlier versions of this game, so has it shifted dramatically, or am I completely missing something?

Post #: 1

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/27/2019 11:56:00 AM

Zovs

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Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
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Well with all the playing's I have had over this last year (at least 12-20 PBEM games and several solo games) I believe your completely wrong, the game is play able. Maybe you need to try another scenario. You can't really base an opinion on a game system over one scenario, that is pretty silly.

I play with all options on.

Which North African scenarios are you talking about? There is no automatic win's in this game at all.

Are you only playing Elmer? Or a human?

_____________________________

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(in reply to jeffnward)

Post #: 2

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/27/2019 12:32:59 PM

jeffnward

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Zovs,

Though I always appreciate any and all responses to my occasional questions, I have no interest in this becoming a point-counterpoint battle. When command and control issues prevent your units from moving until it's too late, that's a problem, and the answer isn't try another scenario. And it would likely be even worse against a human opponent.

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 3

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/27/2019 1:25:24 PM

John T_MatrixForum

Posts: 84
Joined: 8/7/2000
From: Stockholm Sweden
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quote:

I used to do quite well in earlier versions of this game, so has it shifted dramatically, or am I completely missing something?

I have not checked the Korea scenario,
but some scenarios had to be tweaked with the new default settings,
or rather restore to the old settings.

One such thing is if you play with the new weather rules -they are much harder on motorized units - the default behaviour during the wet season are now Russian mud.
(I think that's one thing that can ruin the UN cause in the scenario)

So the game is playable, but a lot of scenarios needed more love than given to adjust to the changes.

Cheers
/John

(in reply to jeffnward)

Post #: 4

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/27/2019 1:37:00 PM

Zovs

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From: United States
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I have never had any issues where command and control prevented you from moving units, in fact there is no c2 in the game per se. However if your referring to units or formations becoming reorganized where they get an orange band on them then that does happen on occasion if your opponent causes excessive casualties, but it�s rare or when he is really kicking your butt.

Again it may be the scenario your playing or something you are doing wrong.

I have been playing TOAW since 1998, and they have all been playable.

_____________________________

Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to John T_MatrixForum)

Post #: 5

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/27/2019 2:03:45 PM

Curtis Lemay

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From: Houston, TX
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My guess is that you've accidentally mucked up some parameter somewhere. Since I can't guess what that is, my only suggestion is to reinstall and see if that clears it up.

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(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 6

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/27/2019 6:33:26 PM

Lobster

Posts: 5104
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I have never had any issues where command and control prevented you from moving units, in fact there is no c2 in the game per se. However if your referring to units or formations becoming reorganized where they get an orange band on them then that does happen on occasion if your opponent causes excessive casualties, but it�s rare or when he is really kicking your butt.

Again it may be the scenario your playing or something you are doing wrong.

I have been playing TOAW since 1998, and they have all been playable.

I don't think he means it's unplayable. I think he means he doesn't understand the mechanics. That can be hard on a new player and yes they tend to get stomped.

I would suggest checking out some of the tutorials on Youtube.

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A: A stick.

(in reply to Zovs)

Post #: 7

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/27/2019 8:29:15 PM

sPzAbt653

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Korea 50-51 Player 2 Shock Schedule:

Event: 110, Debug - 33% UN shock turn 1.
Trigger turn: 1 (June 25th, 1950).
Effect: Shock 2.
Value: 33.

Event: 111, Debug - 50% UN shock turn 2.
Trigger turn: 3 (July 9th, 1950).
Effect: Shock 2.
Value: 66.

Event: 112, Debug - 75% UN shock turn 3.
Trigger turn: 4 (July 16th, 1950).
Effect: Shock 2.
Value: 75.

Event: 113, Debug - 100% UN shock turn 4.
Trigger turn: 6 (July 30th, 1950).
Effect: Shock 2.
Value: 100.

Some News does not fit the Level, but otherwise the U.N. Player does not get full control of all their units until Turn 6

(in reply to jeffnward)

Post #: 8

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/27/2019 8:45:22 PM

sPzAbt653

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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

whoever goes first decimates the other side and automatically wins.

Interesting ... check your PO settings in your Advanced Player Options, maybe for some reason it is set to a +2 Cheat.

Check your Game Options - this is a TOAW I scenario, so using any newer options may bot be a good idea. This has been covered before but worth repeating - players not familiar with all this should stick by a simple rule 'if the briefing doesn't recommend it, don't use it'. In this case, make sure New Turn Order Rules = OFF for sure.

If these don't help, keep us posted with more details, because I also don't find it completely unplayable.

(in reply to jeffnward)

Post #: 9

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/27/2019 8:54:32 PM

John T_MatrixForum

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Joined: 8/7/2000
From: Stockholm Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Korea 50-51 Player 2 Shock Schedule:

Event: 110, Debug - 33% UN shock turn 1.
Trigger turn: 1 (June 25th, 1950).
Effect: Shock 2.
Value: 33.

Event: 111, Debug - 50% UN shock turn 2.
Trigger turn: 3 (July 9th, 1950).
Effect: Shock 2.
Value: 66.

Event: 112, Debug - 75% UN shock turn 3.
Trigger turn: 4 (July 16th, 1950).
Effect: Shock 2.
Value: 75.

Event: 113, Debug - 100% UN shock turn 4.
Trigger turn: 6 (July 30th, 1950).
Effect: Shock 2.
Value: 100.

Some News does not fit the Level, but otherwise the U.N. Player does not get full control of all their units until Turn 6

Yes that is as it should be
You wind up at Pusan perimeter but after 11 GT the game seems to work OK-
At least UN kills a lot of Chinese,

So I think it works as in TOAW III ?

(in reply to sPzAbt653)

Post #: 10

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/27/2019 9:04:56 PM

sPzAbt653

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From: east coast, usa
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quote:

So I think it works as in TOAW III ?

Precisely. Well, except for the butterfly effect, which is always a factor concerning the TOAW Code.

(in reply to John T_MatrixForum)

Post #: 11

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/31/2019 7:02:03 AM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
Joined: 8/12/2000
From: Louisiana, USA
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The Korea 50-51 scenario was the first scenario I ever played on TOAW I back in, I don't know how far back. I do remember that as a longtime board gamer just transitioning to computer games that I was amazed by what the game could do. I've played every version of the TOAW, though to be honest I haven't played much TOAW4. However, I put it on my computer from Steam this week with the idea of getting back into the game over the Christmas break. I'm a high school teacher, so I have two weeks off.

So I started Korea 50-51 and played it using basically whatever the generic rules setup is and played the first four turns. It played out pretty much like the original poster described it, but then again, pretty much like I remembered it from earlier versions of the game. Here is a very brief summary.

Turn 1. North Korea attacks and devastates the ROK defensive line at the border. The units that remain are mostly immobile. I see I have three mobile units in the south, and I move those into blocking positions along the main avenues south to slow the NK advance. I think that is a critical move for the first few turns. Put ROK units in position to slow the NK advance wherever possible. It might seem futile, but it does buy a little time.

Turn 2. North Korea continues to advance. 3 US units arrive in Pusan but are fixed in place. I have exactly ONE mobile ROK unit. I put it in position blocking the NK advance down the eastern coast toward Pusan. There are US air units in Japan, but they are fixed and not usable.

Turn 3. I have two mobile ROK units, isolated along the west coast. I use them in harassing attacks against the NK flank, in the vain hope that the AI might get distracted. It doesn't. At Pusan I now have 9 operational US units, and I set up a Pusan perimeter. One mobile ROK unit is sent up the east coast road to slow the NK advance. 4 US Air Froce units are unlocked in Japan. I have a carrier task force, but it is locked.

Turn 4. The NK forces continue to advance and push my few blocking ROK units into my Pusan perimeter or destroy them. NK and US units make contact on the east coast, but there is no NK attack. In the UN turn, I get 8 more US ground units at Pusan and 9 more ground units in Japan. The carrier task force is still locked. I stop at that point without playing the UN turn.

That is pretty much how I remember the game going in the past. The first few turns are spent mainly just sitting and watching the destruction of the ROK army while trying to slow the NK advance just a bit to allow establishment of the Pusan defensive perimeter.

The way the game played out in the past was for the UN to hold on in Pusan and then launch a flanking amphibious invasion.

So not knowing the setting used by the original poster, I think the game was pretty much working as designed. If you survive the initial NK assault, you can win decisively. You get the opportunity to launch an Inchon style amphibious along the way. But it is touch and go at first and you really have very few options the first few turns, by design.

(in reply to sPzAbt653)

Post #: 12

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/31/2019 4:38:50 PM

Hellen_slith

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Hello, I disagree w/ your assessment that the game is unplayable.

However, there are a few scenarios that (to me) ARE unplayable.

I haven't tried many Korea scenes ... they are not my cup of tea.
The one I did try, via email, kind of petered out ... I think b/c it was not ENJOYABLE.

The game, overall, suffers in some scenarios. For me (playng since II, mostly ACOW, player),
it was a struggle just getting IV to even work.

But, after a month or so of "tweaking" player options, I finally got it going.

I hope you will try other scenarios. Some are very playable AND enjoyable.

I've played The Next War probably at least 20 times since ACOW came out.
Now, I am more focused on WWII scenes,
such as D21 and its "sister" Russo-German War; the old FitE1;
and have just started a FitE2 game, too.

I spend probably five to six hours a day or more playing TOAWIV,
and I find it to be very entertaining and very playable.

But there are some scenes that are NOT entertaining or playable, too.

YMMV! Have a great gaming day!

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 13

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/31/2019 5:40:03 PM

Hellen_slith

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Not sure if this will be helpful to you or not,
but here is a link to an old III AAR of the scene:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3765776

(in reply to jeffnward)

Post #: 14

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/31/2019 10:06:16 PM

jwarrenw13

Posts: 1897
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From: Louisiana, USA
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Here is how my Korea 50-51 game is playing out. Here is the situation at the start of UN turn 7. The NK army has virtually destroyed the ROK army and has advanced to Pusan. My units unlocked, I got some reinforcements, and I formed a perimeter for the reinforcements that are going to be arriving.

(in reply to Hellen_slith)

Post #: 15

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/31/2019 10:07:50 PM

jwarrenw13

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From: Louisiana, USA
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Here is the situation at the beginning of UN turn 12. I've replicated the Inchon landing and broken out of the Pusan position to begin the destruction of the NK army.

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 16

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 12/31/2019 10:13:33 PM

jwarrenw13

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From: Louisiana, USA
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And UN turn 14, I've cut off the NK forces from the north and am well into the process of destroying the NK army. I have not crossed the NK border though. From here things can be dull or interesting depending on how you play it, and I haven't played the game through in a long, long time. Invade NK and take a chance on Chinese intervention, which increases as you approach the Chinese border. The game uses weekly turns and can end after 27 turns is the UN does not invade NK or 50 turns if it does. Honestly I think the game is working as originally designed way back with the first TOAW. It is a rollercoraster. I think the original poster just didn't know that it is going to take at least 6 turns before the UN player will be able to do much of anything. The only actions open are to try to throw any active ROK units in the path of the NK advance to slow them down a little and try to form the Pusan perimeter and hold it until you build up enough forces to go on the attack.

(in reply to jwarrenw13)

Post #: 17

RE: TOAW IV is basically unplayable - 1/1/2020 5:34:51 AM

jwarrenw13

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From: Louisiana, USA
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Then on turn 21 the 1st Tank Battalion of the 1st US Marine Division made contact with Chinese troops just south of Pyongyang and we advanced northward with a goal of seizing Pyongyang and stopping on that line -- in hopes that the Chinese would not intervene. So now my rather strung out Marine Division is facing a Chinese army-sized formation, one of five army-sized formations that I can count. This scenario is just as much of a roller coaster ride as it was years ago when I first played it.