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Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 12:51:33 PM   
tigercub


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Italy as no Oil income at the beginning of the 1939 scenario does not make sense!

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RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 1:31:08 PM   
Journier

 

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hmmm never noticed this before in 39 scenario will check

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RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 1:48:22 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Italy relies on traded oil.

I personally feel that they should have an income of 5 from Albania and a 'token' income of 5 in North Italy as form of 'national reserve' to keep a bare minimum of activity in general. (Plus I think Axis needs 10 oil in Hungary too)

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RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 10:15:31 PM   
aspqrz02

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Italy relies on traded oil.

I personally feel that they should have an income of 5 from Albania and a 'token' income of 5 in North Italy as form of 'national reserve' to keep a bare minimum of activity in general. (Plus I think Axis needs 10 oil in Hungary too)


According to the League of Nations statistical digest, Albania produced 208,000 tons of oil in 1939 ... based on Romania's 40 OIL and its 6.239 million tons of oil produced in 1939 this means that 1 OIL is approximately 150,000 tons of production.

To give Albania 5 OIL (the minimum you can ... at present) is to grossly over-egg their actual production ... they would rate 1 OIL at best.

Likewise, Hungary produced around half what Albania did ... so they should get 0.5 OIL, realistically ... at most.

Historically, Poland would get 4 OIL.

What I did with the Historical Map Mod I have been working on is to combine Polish and Hungarian Oil in 5 OIL at 177, 50, which would seem to be the best solution since Poland won't get any benefit anyway.

I cannot see any non-gamey or fantasy reason for giving Albania 5 OIL ... it merely advantages the Axis (and Germany especially) more than it already is.

Of course, if Alvaro could add a 1 OIL and 2 OIL marker to the tiles available you could represent things more accurately and WITHOUT giving the Axis fantasy level assistance.

The problem is, then he'd really be obliged to have 1 STEEL and 2 STEEL markers to more accurately represent steel production distribution, too.

Or, to put your thinking another way ... *I* think that the UK should have 10 OIL as well as CROP marker because she is forced to rely on convoys to bring stuff in, which ISN'T FAIR ... what's sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander, in other words.

See, 'fairness' has nothing whatsoever to do with reality.

Phil McGregor

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RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 10:38:11 PM   
gingerbread


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The US sold oil to Italy. How about having the game start with an established trade which is discontinued at war entry.

This provides Italy with some oil and also introduce an opportunity cost of an early DoW. I like opportunity costs.

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Post #: 5
RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 10:43:07 PM   
battlevonwar


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aspgrz02, shouldn't Italy start with small stockpile?

1940

The Regia Marina, expecting the imminent conflict against Great Britain, had planned in the years preceding the war and had been able to accumulate hefty quantities of oil fuel for her boilers to about 2 million tons. This quantity was thought sufficient for about one and one half years of war without any limitations. The Navy was the only armed force, which was able to accumulate a large quantity of fuel, and in the first week of June the Minister of Corporations withdrew 250,000 tons for the operation of industries and also for the Regia Aeronautica. The Regia Aeronautica had used tanks built of tin, instead of iron, which had caused the gasoline to spoil, so the Navy had to transfer 50,000 tons of gasoline.
~http://www.regiamarina.net/detail_text.asp?nid=125&lid=1

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz02


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

Italy relies on traded oil.

I personally feel that they should have an income of 5 from Albania and a 'token' income of 5 in North Italy as form of 'national reserve' to keep a bare minimum of activity in general. (Plus I think Axis needs 10 oil in Hungary too)


According to the League of Nations statistical digest, Albania produced 208,000 tons of oil in 1939 ... based on Romania's 40 OIL and its 6.239 million tons of oil produced in 1939 this means that 1 OIL is approximately 150,000 tons of production.

To give Albania 5 OIL (the minimum you can ... at present) is to grossly over-egg their actual production ... they would rate 1 OIL at best.

Likewise, Hungary produced around half what Albania did ... so they should get 0.5 OIL, realistically ... at most.

Historically, Poland would get 4 OIL.

What I did with the Historical Map Mod I have been working on is to combine Polish and Hungarian Oil in 5 OIL at 177, 50, which would seem to be the best solution since Poland won't get any benefit anyway.

I cannot see any non-gamey or fantasy reason for giving Albania 5 OIL ... it merely advantages the Axis (and Germany especially) more than it already is.

Of course, if Alvaro could add a 1 OIL and 2 OIL marker to the tiles available you could represent things more accurately and WITHOUT giving the Axis fantasy level assistance.

The problem is, then he'd really be obliged to have 1 STEEL and 2 STEEL markers to more accurately represent steel production distribution, too.

Or, to put your thinking another way ... *I* think that the UK should have 10 OIL as well as CROP marker because she is forced to rely on convoys to bring stuff in, which ISN'T FAIR ... what's sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander, in other words.

See, 'fairness' has nothing whatsoever to do with reality.

Phil McGregor


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Post #: 6
RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 11:24:41 PM   
aspqrz02

 

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Yes, that is a solution that is both historical AND makes sense!

Phil McGregor

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RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 11:27:22 PM   
Michael T


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Yes a small stockpile would be a good fix.

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RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 11:34:29 PM   
aspqrz02

 

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Two million tons is about 13 OIL ... bugger all ... so, yes, give Italy 13 OIL stockpile ... but NOT in addition to the 10 OIL she already has, just TO 13 OIL.

Italy's pre-war planning was, to put it kindly, piss poor.

Now, sure, Axis players will say 'but I would have done better' ... thing is, they want benefits of better planning, but ONLY FOR THE AXIS.

If you want more OIL for Italy because YOU are a better planner than Mussolini, then *I* am a better planner than Chamberlain and Churchill ... so *I* want something that represents this!

How about, No Munich ... so Czechoslovakia still exists and is pro-Allied? Or has given up the Sudetenland but the Germans were held back from taking the rest in April 39 by stronger allied support, so it is a smaller country, but allied with the Allies. Or maybe the war is triggered in April 38 when the Germans invade her ... so you have a not fully mobilised Germany facing a Franco-German mobilisation (maybe a Phoney War, but with another 5 months to expand their militaries ...).

On that basis I'd be happy to allow Mussolini to have some extra OIL.

Axis players, however, aren't likely to be so happy ...

Phil McGregor

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Post #: 9
RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 11:37:00 PM   
aspqrz02

 

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They already have a stockpile of 10 OIL, so add +3 OIL to make it 13 OIL which is approximately the 2 million tons they actually had.

NOT, as I suspect some Axis players would want, an additional 13 OIL for 23 OIL total.

Phil McGregor

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Post #: 10
RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 11:50:30 PM   
AlbertN

 

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13 Fuel points is what is used in -1- turn by 2 medium bombers (well 12).
That is hardly a stockpile.

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Post #: 11
RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 11:55:06 PM   
Michael T


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Italy just did not have oil. It's a fact. Axis players just have to live with that. It's the main reason their beautiful Italian Navy rarely sailed.



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RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 11:56:18 PM   
battlevonwar


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If there was enough oil though in the stockpiles vs what the games consumes to run for a year or more wouldn't it make sense to give it? You cannot historically represent with a Hexagon and an oil marker what history represents. Italy revolted after a few bombings and it's people were nearly in revolt in a couple of years but the game doesn't represent that at all or cannot cause it's not that complex. If you want historical accuracy on the level you speak of you need to create a game that would be so vast and so time consuming it would take millions of dollars to to make and likely 10 years? Depending on the size of the Dev team? Even then you would be far off history.

You really cannot make a playable and entertaining and 100% factual war game with the technology present today. Also you cannot make it entertaining. Why play the game if your philosophy is bleak for one side? If you want to do it your way why not do this?

The Axis will lose not matter what? Stack the odds so heavily against them all they can do is precisely what they did historically then put a rating on how well the player did vs Historically on whether there is a Victor or Loser? They might take Stalingrad for a month then lose it +1 VP. They might mop up Dunkirk +1 VP. They may lose Libya in 1940 -1 VP. Etc... Practical

Vis Versa for the Allies put a Rating on their performance. If they do a poorer job than history than they lose the game. Though not the war?

Makes sense... There are a ton of resources, factories, logistics, etc.. that are not included in the game. There is a ton of history not included in the game. It's like World of Warships, the models of ships are highly accurate but the actual game play if it took hours to start the game engine would put a player to sleep to actually play it.



quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz02

They already have a stockpile of 10 OIL, so add +3 OIL to make it 13 OIL which is approximately the 2 million tons they actually had.

NOT, as I suspect some Axis players would want, an additional 13 OIL for 23 OIL total.

Phil McGregor


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Post #: 13
RE: Italy Oil - 12/30/2019 11:57:13 PM   
Journier

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

13 Fuel points is what is used in -1- turn by 2 medium bombers (well 12).
That is hardly a stockpile.


13 fuel points is enough for... 1 sortie by the regia marina? maybe? it sure doesnt sound like much in comparison to 2 million tons stockpiled in real life that I thought lasted till almost 41.

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Post #: 14
RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 12:04:45 AM   
battlevonwar


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Italy had far worse issues though than some oil. They had biplanes and a lack of rations, equipment shortages, brash leadership. You really have to make her gimped. The game does go about that 'some'... she doesn't build large infantry divisions. She hasn't the oil to run her fancy air force or navy so it's more of a pretty picture frame without the picture. If Germany is on the warpath she won't get that oil either in lend lease.

If the UK or US dropped a decent invasion force with her morale/forces she would surrender pretty quickly. Which turns out is probably a pretty historical representation for the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

13 Fuel points is what is used in -1- turn by 2 medium bombers (well 12).
That is hardly a stockpile.


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Post #: 15
RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 12:30:14 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith
13 Fuel points is what is used in -1- turn by 2 medium bombers (well 12).
That is hardly a stockpile.


No, but is reality.

Reality sucks.

Phil McGregor

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RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 12:36:25 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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Actually, reality is moderately closely represented ... well, representable ... with WarPlan.

What you're REALLY complaining about is that you cannot have an Axis fantasy scenario where they can, and do, conquer the entire map.

You REALLY want to have unrealistic benefits ONLY for the Axis player and force the Allied player to have, not just NO benefits, but actually hobble them with unrealistic penalties.

So, you want the Axis to be given, free and clear, stockpiles that will enable them to run rampant across the map for an entire year with no recourse to actual real world constraints?

Fine.

As long as the ALLIES get the same deal. Just 'give' the UK enough stockpiles to last a year with no need for those pesky convoys.

We both know that this is NOT what is really wanted.

Phil McGregor

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RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 12:47:54 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Journier
13 fuel points is enough for... 1 sortie by the regia marina? maybe? it sure doesnt sound like much in comparison to 2 million tons stockpiled in real life that I thought lasted till almost 41.


Well, you know how the Italians managed to make do?

1) They kept the Regia Marina, especially the major combatants (fuel hogs), in port for most of the time, with just enough fuel for their boilers to be kept on standby.

2) They relied almost entirely, pretty much from the get go, on shipments of oil from GERMAN stockpiles to do even (1).

3) Any serious operations they did (Navy, Air Force, Army) that required oil they relied on the Germans underwriting it with OIL from German stockpiles.

That is reality.

(There may be a case for giving Germany slightly larger At Start stockpiles, but certainly not enough to run rampant for a year without anything else needed. Or there may be a case for having Air Forces use less OIL ... which will advantage the Allies at least as much as the Axis, so be warned.)

Also, remember that that is the Italian OIL stockpile IN SEPTEMBER 1939. As Italy -

1) Don't do any moves requiring OIL

2) Allow (as suggested) an OIL trade with the US or South/Central America using their Merchantmen

and build up your stockpile for a historical mid-late 1940 DoW.

I dunno how much OIL Italy imported before the war, so that would require some research ... but, remember, Italy wasn't a rich country, OIL imports would be limited by available $$$ to much less than Axis players will probably like!

Phil McGregor

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(in reply to Journier)
Post #: 18
RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 12:59:40 AM   
Journier

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Journier
13 fuel points is enough for... 1 sortie by the regia marina? maybe? it sure doesnt sound like much in comparison to 2 million tons stockpiled in real life that I thought lasted till almost 41.


Well, you know how the Italians managed to make do?

1) They kept the Regia Marina, especially the major combatants (fuel hogs), in port for most of the time, with just enough fuel for their boilers to be kept on standby.

2) They relied almost entirely, pretty much from the get go, on shipments of oil from GERMAN stockpiles to do even (1).

3) Any serious operations they did (Navy, Air Force, Army) that required oil they relied on the Germans underwriting it with OIL from German stockpiles.

That is reality.

(There may be a case for giving Germany slightly larger At Start stockpiles, but certainly not enough to run rampant for a year without anything else needed. Or there may be a case for having Air Forces use less OIL ... which will advantage the Allies at least as much as the Axis, so be warned.)

Also, remember that that is the Italian OIL stockpile IN SEPTEMBER 1939. As Italy -

1) Don't do any moves requiring OIL

2) Allow (as suggested) an OIL trade with the US or South/Central America using their Merchantmen

and build up your stockpile for a historical mid-late 1940 DoW.

I dunno how much OIL Italy imported before the war, so that would require some research ... but, remember, Italy wasn't a rich country, OIL imports would be limited by available $$$ to much less than Axis players will probably like!

Phil McGregor


The axis as a whole have plenty of oil for 12 -14 tank corps at barbarossa start and can then drag out the war quite well into 43 without oil issue in my opinion, i have posted about this previously and everyone screamed it cant be done but it can easily repeatedly. They can do this while fulfilling Italy's needs of 20-25 oil every turn light combat operations, and every few weeks a fleet sailing.

All i am saying is sailing the regia marina around the mediteranean would not burn their entire fuel reserve in one trip. one time wouldnt burn all fuel stockpiles for italy before 1940, thats all I am saying. Im not asking for more fuel production, im just saying matching the fuel stores at game start with the amount used by units is difficult :/

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RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 1:11:48 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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A quick search indicates that Italy *probably* imported 600,000 tons of Oil a year pre-war. That's OIL 4 a month in WarPlan terms. Which makes a stockpile of OIL 13 look OK... 3 months needs!

It MAY have been as high as OIL 10 a month ...

The Import figures I have been able to dig up include 1-2 OIL a month from Albania.

Anyone got better figures?

Phil McGregor

< Message edited by aspqrz02 -- 12/31/2019 1:56:27 AM >


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RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 2:01:07 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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The real limit on Italian imports were financial ... she was perennially short of foreign exchange with which to actually buy oil.

Also, I seriously doubt that Italy would have been able to use all of the Oil she imported for military purposes ... so she simply couldn't have (as Axis players will attempt to do) stockpile ALL of her Imports. So, to represent this, I'd suggest that she actually get OIL 2 to OIL 4 a month (i.e. OIL 1 or OIL 2 per fortnight turn) to represent this.

I suspect that German Oil Imports may need to be modified to represent the same thing for Germany.

Phil McGregor


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RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 2:11:01 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Journier
The axis as a whole have plenty of oil for 12 -14 tank corps at barbarossa start and can then drag out the war quite well into 43


Assuming 2 Panzer and 1 Panzergrenadier or Motorised Division per Corps, that's 24-28 Panzer Divisions and 12-14 Panzergrenadier or Motorised Divisions.

That's actually pretty close to the actual number (not including some of the 'shadow' and nominal 'Divisions' added in 1944-45) of Panzer Divisions Germany fielded ... but several of those were deployed elsewhere.

It's fewer than the ~20 or so full strength Panzergrenadier Divisions they fielded ... but some of those were converted to Panzer Divisions at some point.

Assuming you had to carefully husband your stockpiles between the conquest of France and the Low Countries and Barbarossa and then carefully calculated the use of all Oil consuming units IN Russia, then that's historical, too.

The Germans, historically, had to make operational move/deploy commitments based on Oil availability as early as late 41 ... it didn't prevent them from moving things, it just forced them to be economical, and made some moves ... uneconomic.

Phil McGregor

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Post #: 22
RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 3:36:50 AM   
Journier

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz02

quote:

ORIGINAL: Journier
The axis as a whole have plenty of oil for 12 -14 tank corps at barbarossa start and can then drag out the war quite well into 43


Assuming 2 Panzer and 1 Panzergrenadier or Motorised Division per Corps, that's 24-28 Panzer Divisions and 12-14 Panzergrenadier or Motorised Divisions.

That's actually pretty close to the actual number (not including some of the 'shadow' and nominal 'Divisions' added in 1944-45) of Panzer Divisions Germany fielded ... but several of those were deployed elsewhere.

It's fewer than the ~20 or so full strength Panzergrenadier Divisions they fielded ... but some of those were converted to Panzer Divisions at some point.

Assuming you had to carefully husband your stockpiles between the conquest of France and the Low Countries and Barbarossa and then carefully calculated the use of all Oil consuming units IN Russia, then that's historical, too.

The Germans, historically, had to make operational move/deploy commitments based on Oil availability as early as late 41 ... it didn't prevent them from moving things, it just forced them to be economical, and made some moves ... uneconomic.

Phil McGregor


Absolutely, if you go all out with air operations, and tank movements every turn year round you wont have any oil reserve going into late 42-early 43. Actually you can drain yourself quite easily early in 1940 by doing heavy tank operations across france, then yugoslavia, then greece against a human.

You need to husband the oil stockpile during the winter months, make forceful pushes during summer, then begin your hold in september again for mainly infantry operations, It feels good to me personally, however, thats with me feeding italy after the fall of france 20-25 oil a turn. until my oil stockpiles run close to dry in 43 or so, then italy gets cut off from oil imports for my main thrusts of tanks and aircraft for 1944 trying to force my way toward baku.

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Post #: 23
RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 3:47:16 AM   
aspqrz02

 

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I suspect only players who want to do things (and actually DID do them) that ignore the real world constraints thought your claims unrealistic.

Seems like you cracked the 'secret' of Germany's operational guidelines, for which I can only say ... Well done!.

Phil McGregor

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Post #: 24
RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 4:33:44 AM   
tigercub


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Each year Italy, a country of limited natural resources, is forced to import tons of fuel of various grades from multiple sources. This dependency on imports is particularly aggravated during war times when the larger part of these imports ceases. During World War I, when Italy was allied with the "Lords of the Sea" and with the countries controlling most of the world’s natural resources, this problem did not exist. Instead, the Central Empires were tormented by this problem, and being unable to procure what was necessary to keep the war machine running, forced to surrender. When Mussolini declared the "Autarchia" (national self sufficiency), complete self-reliance of the whole Italian industrial complex, one could not but notice the paradox of such a proclamation. Italy, even if she had had the necessary industries to sustain her (a far-fetched assumption considering the backward state of the whole apparatus), would have been unable to obtain the necessary energy to keep it running.

In the 20s and 30s, Italy imported an average of 12 million tons of good quality coal necessary for industrial production, the generation of electricity, locomotion, and winter heating. When Great Britain decided that an Italian intervention along with Germany was preferable to a pro-German neutrality, Italy was informed on January 14th 1940 of an imminent naval blockade of all coal import from Germany ( at that time coming through the then neutral Netherlands). On February 3rd, London informed Rome of the necessary prerequisites for the reinstitution of shipments of the indispensable coal, which, under the plan, would have been shipped from England. Italy was asked to provide London with a large quantity of war materiel. Following the mediation attempts conducted by the Italian Foreign Minister, Count Ciano, Great Britain materialized her threats and on March 1st, when units of the Royal Navy interdicted and captured 13 Italian coal ships taking them to internment and confiscating their cargoes.

On the 10th of the same month, when Italian reserves of coal had already decreased to less than one month, the Germans informed that they were ready to commence transferring coal through the Alpine passes at a rate of about 1 million tons per month. This remedy, which the British thought impossible, was the result of collaboration between the "Reichsbahn" and the "Ferrovie dello Stato" and lasted until late summer 1944. Considering that from June 1940 through September 1943 the Regia Marina had to face an ever increasing crisis with the supplies of oil fuel, which at one point paralyzed the fleet leaving the control of the Mediterranean in the hands of the enemy, how did the Italian war ships fill up to reach Malta, where they surrendered?

After several studies, some well-known historians pointed out several discrepancies between the fuel status reports the Regia Marina was sending to the Germans and the quantity reported by the historical bureau of the Italian Navy. The most evident of these discrepancies was noted in the meeting of Merano, in February 1941, where the head of the Navy, Admiral Riccardi, stated that the Navy had only 610,000 tons left when in fact, reserves amounted to over 1 million tons. One can easily assume that the Navy had created a sort of black fund of oil fuel to be used as a last resource with the double scope of obtaining more of the now available German fuel and, in relative security, to coordinate naval operations.

1940

The Regia Marina, expecting the imminent conflict against Great Britain, had planned in the years preceding the war and had been able to accumulate hefty quantities of oil fuel for her boilers to about 2 million tons. This quantity was thought sufficient for about one and one half years of war without any limitations. The Navy was the only armed force, which was able to accumulate a large quantity of fuel, and in the first week of June the Minister of Corporations withdrew 250,000 tons for the operation of industries and also for the Regia Aeronautica. The Regia Aeronautica had used tanks built of tin, instead of iron, which had caused the gasoline to spoil, so the Navy had to transfer 50,000 tons of gasoline.

Italy entered the war not only with the most complete lack of readiness of her armed forces, but also without much fuel. It was thought that the war would not have last long and that the little fuel reserve would be sufficient. As a matter of fact, until January 1941, there were no limitations on the use of oil fuel, but during this month 671,560 tons had already been burned. Supermarina was forced to reduce training. Up to that moment, no large shipment of oil fuel had been acquired to replace the spent one. The 50,000 tons coming from Rumania were all destined to the Regio Esercito and civilian use, while the Regia Aeronautica benefited from 200,000 tons of very poor quality oil coming from the Albanian oil wells. The Regia Marina even attempted to increase domestic production obtaining annually 10,000 tons of low-grade fuel. The first replenishment was only 15,000 tons and it arrived from Rumania as part of an extraordinary shipment.

1941

To worsen this situation came the attempted coup d’ètat in Rumania, which tried to replace the pro German government. Despite Rome’s denial, it was common opinion that the Italian government had supported this action and therefore all shipments of fuel were immediately ceased. For the Regia Marina this situation meant that in addition to losing any hope of replainge the oil fuel burned, 250,000 tons had to be transferred to the Ministry of Corporations which declared it "intangible" while an additional 34,000 tons had to be transferred to the national industry. During 1941, Italy was only able to import 600,000 tons of fuel and of this 163,000 tons were "donated" to the Navy. At this point the situation became really dramatic and the monthly consumption had to be reduced to 60,000 tons. The total amount of oil fuel available at the end of the year was about 200,000 tons and during this period of crisis it was decided to remove from service the older battleships. To worsen this already negative situation, after the November British attack in Egypt, the high command and Mussolini requested that the fleet defend the Libya-bound convoys. This strain, which eventually paid off, was only possible thanks to the special shipment of 80,000 tons of German oil fuel, which was delivered at the end of the year.

1942

On January 10th, 1942 Admiral Riccardi informed the Germans that the Navy’s supplies of fuel had gone down to 90,000 tons. Admiral De Courten, in his memoirs, affirms that in that month the actual reserves were 200,000 tons. This discrepancy can be explained by the 130,000 tons of "intangible" fuel assigned to the corporation. During these months, the bottom was finally reached with reserves down to 14,000 tons. The situation was further deteriorated by the shipment of 9,000 tons of German oil fuel of quality too low to be of any use.

Fortunately, at the end of April, it was possible to start importing 50,000 tons of oil fuel per month from Rumania. Suspending the escort and mining missions conducted by the cruisers further reduced consumption. These precautions and new shipments allowed for the deployment of the whole fleet in the double operation (east and west) during the battle of mid-June. Despite the new shipment, the situation kept deteriorating because, up to the armistice, the Regia Marina transferred 40,000 tons to other units and only two shipments of German fuel (10,000 tons in July and 23,000 in September) were received. These shipments allowed for the deployment (then cancelled), of some cruisers during the battle of mid-August and the replenishment of the bunkers aboard the two naval squadrons. At the end of November, the oil fuel reserve was about 70,000 tons plus all which was stored aboard the ships; enough for one sortie of the whole fleet. At the end of December, the old battleships Cesare, Duilio and Doria were removed from service, thus allowing for their crews to be redeployed to new escort units which were just entering service.

1943

The allied landing in North Africa and the subsequent doubling in consumption was the new event which, once again, placed the Regia Marina in a state of crisis. In fact, now instead of just refurnishing Libya, the Navy had to supply Tunisia. These new missions were made possible by the shipment of 40,000 tons of excellent German oil fuel. In January 1943, the crisis reached its climax and the three modern battleships had to be removed from service thus eliminating the Italian battle force. The only naval division still operating was the 3rd, based in La Maddalena (Sardinia). The crisis worsened with only 3,000 tons received in February 1943 and in March and April the modern destroyers had to be removed from escort missions. Meanwhile, on the 10th of April, the only major naval force, the 3rd Division, was annihilated when the Trieste was sunk and the Gorizia seriously damaged by an allied air bombardment. Expecting a possible Allied invasion, the remaining destroyers were reactivated along with the battleships which had half their bunkers filled with diesel fuel used by submarines.

In the month of April, the 9th and 7th Divisions were active and the destroyers were used in escort missions. It must be noted that, at this point, there was no reserve of oil fuel left; so, how did the Regia Marina reach Malta? To find the answer, we have to step back. When the Germans unexpectedly occupied the French base of Toulon on November 27, 1942, where most of the French fleet still afloat was kept, they were able to capture 80,000 tons of oil fuel. Having realized that the Regia Marina could not launch any offensive mission, the Germans transferred "on loan" 60,000 tons of "special" oil fuel thus allowing for the three battleships to be reactivated, along with the cruisers of the 7th and 8th Division, the light cruisers based in Taranto, and, at the end of June, the two battleships Doria and Duilio, while the Cesare was in Trieste being rebuilt. This oil fuel allowed for several training missions, event which had not happened in a long time. The final mission was not even compromised by the total cessation of German supplies following Mussolini’s fall. In fact when Italy surrendered on September 8th, the Fleet had enough fuel to reach and surrender in Malta.


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(in reply to aspqrz02)
Post #: 25
RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 7:44:29 AM   
ericdauriac

 

Posts: 98
Joined: 9/14/2016
From: Limoges
Status: offline
HellO,

1) But don't we already have 10 OIL supplied by romania to italy?


2) When you use another author's text in its entirety, you have to cite your sources, it's a question of intellectual honesty (and it's the law!).

Regards

(in reply to tigercub)
Post #: 26
RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 8:17:58 AM   
aspqrz02

 

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ericdauriac
1) But don't we already have 10 OIL supplied by romania to italy?


2) When you use another author's text in its entirety, you have to cite your sources, it's a question of intellectual honesty (and it's the law!).


1) Possibly, if so, that probably shouldn't be the case. It is my understanding that by 1939 the Romanians were sending virtually 100% of their OIL to Germany. It would make more sense to have a Central/South American Convoy as suggested by others ... as this is where 70-90% of the OIL actually came from.

2) Really? Who woulda thunkit. Seriously ... IF this were an academic journal and IF the poster was trying to pass it off as their own work, neither of which is the case, then you might have a relevant point. As it is? Well, for a start, I don't think the Copyright Police will be knocking on his door to cart him off in manacles and, secondly, come on seriously?

Phil McGregor


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(in reply to ericdauriac)
Post #: 27
RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 8:47:15 AM   
tigercub


Posts: 2004
Joined: 2/3/2003
From: brisbane oz
Status: offline
Phil is 100% right , I was just sharing information because most of us love to read and gain insight!
that's all it is.

Tigercub

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Post #: 28
RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 10:18:37 AM   
battlevonwar


Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline
Smart Axis player will not use his oil. So it doesn't really matter. Smart Axis player will end moves on rails, will not bother with neutrals that pay nothing back(Historically didn't the Axis pillage and rob the oil supplies of the nations they annexed? Not represented in game at all...)

Furthermore a smart Axis player has key builds he/she can focus on and plenty of infantry. Enough manpower to use and has to do her job in time to do in the major Threats, the Western Allies early, Russian Bear, Early and that should be the game. Italians aren't all that important other than to keep them from surrendering.

I really would use their air force but their navy is quite obsolete quickly unless you invest in it but why would you? Just use their air force is a better expenditure.

As far as Italian Oil, It makes no difference if you give it 5 or -5... It wouldn't change my builds or abilities in the game. It's tanks/mechs are pathetic and it's navy would be good for a few months before the Brits get themselves together then that's over with.

Italians are a great distraction though as they were historically... One German General said, "You should of invaded from the top down."

Funny the whole time this is going on the Axis and Allies are blaming each other for poisoning water wells in Libya that were actually full of oil. LOL

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 12/31/2019 10:24:01 AM >

(in reply to tigercub)
Post #: 29
RE: Italy Oil - 12/31/2019 10:39:59 AM   
battlevonwar


Posts: 1041
Joined: 12/22/2011
Status: offline
At the outbreak of the war, Germany’s stockpiles of fuel consisted of a total of 15 million barrels. The campaigns in Norway, Holland, Belgium, and France added another 5 million barrels in booty, and imports from the Soviet Union accounted for 4 million barrels in 1940 and 1.6 million barrels in the first half of 1941. Yet a High Command study in May of 1941 noted that with monthly military requirements for 7.25 million barrels and imports and home production of only 5.35 million barrels, German stocks would be exhausted by August 1941. The 26 percent shortfall could only be made up with petroleum from Russia.

~https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=78524
Dire situation, as Germany Italy would get "zero" oil from me...

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 12/31/2019 10:40:19 AM >

(in reply to battlevonwar)
Post #: 30
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