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First Impressions and a few Questions

 
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First Impressions and a few Questions - 12/26/2019 3:04:13 AM   
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Zovs
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First Impressions.

The base UI seems fairly standard for a war game, it has a menu bar that is similar to JT's CS (West/East front). I have not used any of the mods yet (I like the ASL or VASL looking mods and will use JSME when ready to proceed).

Game comes with 34 scenarios and 5 CG and a "bonus" scenario(?). This is with both the Kursk and Normandy DLC's added (I should have looked when I first installed just the base game to see what was added with the other two DLC's).

So I started with tutorial 1. I selected the AI to play the US since they are "Hold" and the Germans are on "Advance" (no I have not yet read the manual, just jumping in).

The map looks a little like a standard ASL geoboard, but the artwork is defiantly different.

Seems like ASL in that you have to setup your forces first. And of course I selected Hard cause I wanted to use c2 and I also selected FOW. So I have no idea where the US forces are deployed so I am going in blind.

That is kind of refreshing in a sense. When I play SP:WW2/MBT in CG's you can't see where stuff is deployed and it has FOW.

What is a little strange is I found my units they are at the bottom of the map. I don't (yet) see any setup restrictions no do I see the US forces, I do see some green flags with US symbols on them so I am guessing those are the VH's I must capture.

Off we go.

So I have a mix of some Fsj and SS units, kind of bizarre. Not quite sure how to deploy them yet only have two buttons, Remove unit and Quick setup.

So I just checked the Status from the menu that does confirm I need to capture 3 VH's to win. So that is good to know. Scrolling north again I locate the 3 hexes, two are road hexes and one is a wooden building (basing the map graphics off of ASL seems pretty reasonable to know what is what; stone building, wooden building, grain, woods and orchards etc.). Plus when you select a hex you get a nice display on the right side of the game UI. Actually when you hover over a hex. That is really nice.

So I found one shortcoming (at least to me) in the game so far. When you are on the scenario selection screen you do get a description of the scenario but not the date, of course this is a tutorial scenario so perhaps other scenarios in the list have the date.

Okay back to the game, I am assuming that if I want to deploy units I have to click on the "Remove Unit" button first. First lets double check the manual maybe I am missing something.

So back from reading the manual, its nice that its small (only 114 pages) I found some of the answers on the two buttons above and I think I'll let the default setup stand since this is well a learning tutorial scenario and not a tournament game. I did notice the following typo on page 22:

"in which case only the unit tree control panel will display text; we can right lick on a hex."

Personally I have never lick(ed) any of by board game counters, although I have clipped the entire ASL games I own (essentially all the modules from Avalon Hill and all the modules and add on's from MMP until the year 2014, so that is several thousands counters I have clipped, I also have a very large collection of CH things and those have even more counters then the stuff stuff).

Ah, a text walk through of the scenario I selected on page 24. Very nice. So per the tutorial I have already violated two of it's recommendations, Easy an FOW, lol. I don't need no stinking training wheels (famous last words?...lol)...

So I have read up to page 28 of the manual and clicked the next phase, interestingly even with FOW on I can see some US troopers in front of me. They have a big C on them so I am assuming that they are concealed (starting to see a lot of similarities to ASL here so its very easy and intuitive to pick up what is what).

On page 30 of the manual I see this:

"you cannot move personnel and AFV units together"

In ASL you could do this if you used Armored Assault. Will this be available in the future?

The manual also states:

"NOTE: Ordnance weapons do not move in the game."

Will this be changed to ASL standards as well? You can manhandle or tow ordnance using vehicles that have the capability to tow or their crews by man-handling.

Also on page 33 I see:

"NOTE: only one leader at the time can be used to direct fire"

What about fire groups?

So I am on turn 3, having fun. I need to read more in the manual or ask here, how or can you do Fire Groups? Those are pretty important in ASL.

So overall my first impressions of TotH are very positive. I like it so far. I will next try to look at some of the graphic mods (prefer the ASL/VASL look) and need to download the "extra" scenarios, have not seen the Red Barricades ones yet though.

Thanks for listening to my first impressions and any help with the questions are welcomed.

Again, a very long time ASL (board and VASL) player, I have both the 1st (don't use them anymore) and the 2nd edition rules and about 90% of everything for ASL up to 2014, including Avalon Hill, MMP, CH, HOB, LFT, BFP, LC, ESG, FFP, FE, SCP, DFTB, etc. For those that might know what all those stand for :D

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 12/26/2019 4:37:54 AM   
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Zovs
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Sorry for all that text did not realize how much I was typing as I was playing my first go.

Just finished the first tutorial. Won.

Found this in the manual:

"Ordnance firing smoke is only available in hot seat game."

What? Why no smoke against the AI?

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 12/26/2019 9:09:21 AM   
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Paullus
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Hi Zovs and welcome to the TotH Forum. You'll meet lots of ASLers in here and I'll hope you'll continue to like the game. First I would like to recomend you to get the latest Beta Patch over here: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4504508. It will give you more feutures and the use of smoke when playing against the AI. Also you should check out the ASL mods, you'll like them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Game comes with 34 scenarios and 5 CG and a "bonus" scenario(?). This is with both the Kursk and Normandy DLC's added (I should have looked when I first installed just the base game to see what was added with the other two DLC's).

When the game was first released we added three Bonus scenrios that were released in the Forum upon the release day of the game. They are included today.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Okay back to the game, I am assuming that if I want to deploy units I have to click on the "Remove Unit" button first. First lets double check the manual maybe I am missing something.

if you are able to deplay the units yourself is up to the scenario designer. In some scenarios you can and in some scenarios you can't


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs
"you cannot move personnel and AFV units together"

In ASL you could do this if you used Armored Assault. Will this be available in the future?

The manual also states:

"NOTE: Ordnance weapons do not move in the game."

Will this be changed to ASL standards as well? You can manhandle or tow ordnance using vehicles that have the capability to tow or their crews by man-handling.

Unfortunatly there are no Armor Assault in TotH and no movement of the Ordnance. Might be added in the future.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Also on page 33 I see:

"NOTE: only one leader at the time can be used to direct fire"

What about fire groups?

No fire groups capabillity in the game I'm affraid. It is on the wish list


Jorgen




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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 12/26/2019 4:47:47 PM   
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Zovs
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Thanks Jorgen,

I’ll pop over and apply the beta patch, hope the developer is still active. I am a little spoiled by Alvaro the creator of WarPlan, lol.

Thanks for answering my questions.

Don

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 12/31/2019 4:32:52 PM   
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simovitch
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As an avid ASLer in the '70-80's I bought this game when it came out with high hopes that were soon dashed. Too long of a wish list for me, and I haven't touched it in a few years.

I got other games to play, so I will wait patiently and see how it develops over the next few years.

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/1/2020 7:03:46 PM   
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seagles
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I think it's important to understand that this game is NOT digital ASL. If you come to it with those expectations, you will inevitably be disappointed. Peter, the designer, has stated that ASL was obviously a principle point of inspiration but he also wanted Tigers to be it's own thing. If you can drop your expectations, you might just find it to be a pure treasure of solo tactical gaming goodness. I respectfully recommend to enjoy it for what it is, not what you want it to be.

Best,
Scott


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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/1/2020 7:34:23 PM   
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Big Ivan
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seagles

I think it's important to understand that this game is NOT digital ASL. If you come to it with those expectations, you will inevitably be disappointed. Peter, the designer, has stated that ASL was obviously a principle point of inspiration but he also wanted Tigers to be it's own thing. If you can drop your expectations, you might just find it to be a pure treasure of solo tactical gaming goodness. I respectfully recommend to enjoy it for what it is, not what you want it to be.

Best,
Scott




+1

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/1/2020 8:23:20 PM   
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UP844
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quote:

"NOTE: Ordnance weapons do not move in the game."


You actually CAN move ordnance in the game through Manhandling (moving Ordnance loading it on vehicles is NOT allowed). This feature is neither explained nor documented at all (as you mentioned, the Manual clearly rules this possibility out ). According to my experience, it works like manhandling in ASL, i.e.:

1) you must select "double time" before you move the crew and the Ordnance they possess;

2) the involved crew will of course become Tired, so you will only be able to manhandle the Ordnance once every two turns;

3) for every hex you enter there is a chance that your movement ends there: such chance appears to increase depending on the terrain you enter (the higher the terrain MP cost, the higher your chance to stop there) and on the size of the Ordnance (no Manhandling numbers are present, but I noticed that mortars and light AT/INF guns are much easier to move;

4) the maximum number of hexes you can move this way is three (in Open Ground/Road);

5) as far as I have been able to ascertain, moving other infantry units in a stack with the Crew and the Ordnance has no effect (i.e. the extra units do not help the crew, making manhandling heavier Ordnance easier)

6) the AI seldom uses this option (I played all the scenarios, and only once saw it move a German 81mm mortar);

7) any manhandled Ordnance loses the "EMPLACED" status (I suppose its crew becomes more vulnerable).



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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/1/2020 8:47:42 PM   
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Zovs
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UP844 thanks for the tip on man handling techniques!

TotH is similar to and takes a lot of ideas from ASL/SL it’s not exactly ASL/SL but it’s quite fun and a blast in its own right.

Hope it does get updated/upgraded.

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/2/2020 2:00:20 AM   
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Zovs
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Well so far (in tutorial #2) you can not man-handle ordinance. I tried using the double time method but that does not seem to work with the beta patch.

Going through tutorial #3 now, to learn how OBA works.

Fun game. The AI is a little stupid though. Of course I have 34 years of experience playing ASL against some of the best players in the world, lol.

So to me TotH is more like SL with bits and pieces of ASL thrown in.

Would love to see multi-hex FG, Spraying and Assault Fire, more OOB's of say France, Italy, Axis Minor's, Allied Minor's, Finns and lastly Japanese and Chinese forces.

I have not yet checked if all the AFV and Ordinance are available (i.e. Chapter H) or not.

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/2/2020 2:12:15 AM   
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Zovs
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Per the manual there is a palsy 4 Russian AFV!

Yikes that stinks!

Per my Chapter H notes there are 60 Russian AFV!

The Germans have 99 AFV in Chapter H, but TotH (again per the manual) only has 68.

The British have 84 and the US 69 AFV per Chapter H as well.

Will these be added to a future patch? Especially all the missing Russian AFV?

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/2/2020 7:21:31 AM   
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Paullus
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There is 35 Russian AFVs in the game and yes there might be additions.

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/2/2020 8:45:46 AM   
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UP844
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Russians have 35 AFVs, Americans have 29 and British have 30 (including many Shermans). The Germans have much more (69), but as we all know standardization was never a priority for them. I think the game provides enough AFVs to accurately represent any scenario from late 1942 to 1945.

The AFVs I really miss are the British Crusader (essential for North Africa), early British Cruisers (A9/A10/A13) (for France, North Africa and Greece) and the M3 Lee/Grant (used by all the Allied nations), as well as the Panzer I (essential for early war scenarios).

As regards to Russians, the only numerically significant missing AFVs are the T-28s and the T-40s (for 1941/42 scenarios). I would be nice to have some extras like the T-35, the SMK or the T-100, but I can live without them. Some extra Lend-Lease tanks would also be great (M3 Stuarts, Churchills). I don't think Zavod 112 or Zavod 183 T-34s were different enough - in game terms - to require different entries (and, in fact, they were not differentiated in ASL too).

On the other hand, it should be understood that multi-turret tanks (like the British A9/A10, the T-28s and T-35s) or tanks with hull and turret mounted MA (like the Lee/Grant or the French Char B) are somewhat complex to implement in ToTH, as Peter explained some time ago.


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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/2/2020 11:24:06 AM   
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Zovs
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Thanks guys!

Looks like more AFV are in the game then what the manual states and that is a good thing. Understand about the multi-turret AFV. When I read the manual and it only showed 4 really basic types I was a little surprised. It seems from UP844 post that most AFV are present. As those that know the ASL Chapter H notes list not only AFV but each truck or half-track type as well. So for example the British (which also includes ANZAC, Canada and India) has 84 total AFV listed, some are lend lease [83. 3-Ton Lorry, or 74. Sherman III DD(a)], and others are variants like [64. Carriers A, B & C, 65. Carriers, MMG A & B, 66. Carrier 2-in. Mortar, and 67. Carrier 3-in Mortar]. Lastly some types in Chapter H (a lot by the way) have multiple counters to represent that number class, for eacmple [62. Humber AA & Staghound AA(a) Armoured Cars] are each represented by two counters one with a CMG and the other with an AA type weapon (shown below for completeness):

Humber and Staghound in ASL (sorry for the size I have a 4k monitor):


You know, I am re-reading the manual again and I found that the Russians have a lot more listed then what I posted. I think when I posted I saw the four but it looks like further down in the manual there is a slew more!

I do agree that the early war AFV are missing (Pz I, Crusaders as well as the French and Italians) it would be cool to get those and some desert terrain (not just the mods you have to swap in), but the terrain and rules to go with it (ASL Chapter F).

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/2/2020 12:27:23 PM   
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Zovs
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So I looked in the manual and I could not find how to pick up an abandoned SW. I see how to transfer one with the 'w' key but no way to pick one up.

How is it done?

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/2/2020 12:48:09 PM   
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Zovs
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Figured out how to move an ordinance in another scenario, not sure why I could not move the one in the second tutorial.

Tried playing Aachen's Pall and that one is a bust. I setup the 105 Sherman in clear terrain and it was immobilizee and then the next turn it just disappeared for no reason. Weird.

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/2/2020 2:49:51 PM   
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Paullus
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Abandoned SW are recovered automatically in the Administrative Segment if you have a unit in the same hax as the unpossessed weapon. The units are not always successfull

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/2/2020 3:03:59 PM   
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UP844
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You can also attempt picking up an unpossessed SW by moving an infantry unit in the hex and clicking on the appropriate button (I think it is marked "Recover SW" or something similar). You must have some unused MPs to make the attempt. I think (but I am not 100% sure) you can make multiple attempts as long as you have enough unused MPs.

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/2/2020 4:07:13 PM   
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Zovs
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Thanks fellows, apparently you can't pick up dropped/abandoned enemy SW. (?)

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RE: First Impressions and a few Questions - 1/2/2020 4:09:09 PM   
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Paullus
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No Enemy SW can't be used.

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