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Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units

 
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Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/3/2020 2:51:26 PM   
AlbertN

 

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From: Italy
Status: offline 		As per the topic.

I feel a bit too gamey that Soviets can just disband the whole of their forces to entirely tailor their armed forces anew without war experience or just the Winter War.

Soviets have enough production and logistic points to -add- to their starting forces what they deem appropriate, be them more infantry, cavalries, armoured stuff or planes.

But a whole overhaul of the Soviet army before war is even started pratically allows Soviets to easily stall the Germans with an optimal build of whichever will emerge to be the 'top build'.
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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/3/2020 3:39:00 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		A minor only disbands toward it's own stockpile not the major power that controls it. Generally it can be used to reduce map forces to have reinforcement production.

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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/3/2020 3:50:31 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		I meant a Neutral Major power like USA or Soviets or Italy.

Minors are at war when they activate.

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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/3/2020 7:48:13 PM   
murdock762

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 12/9/2019
Status: offline 		As I indicated in another post, you can just use whatever house rules you want and if you think that is gamey then just tell yourself you not going to do it. Obviously doesn't matter to AI or PBEM.

It seems that some players do disband units (especially those that use oil) so maybe that is something that should be looked at.

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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/3/2020 8:18:58 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Status: offline 		Give me some gamey examples as where it is broken.

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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/3/2020 8:28:51 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		As of now I feel that the Soviets mass disband of their mostly useless corps for whichever army suits the best is quite breaking the game - among other things like the infinite airplanes carriers.

Units that cost oil usually are precious units - and they hardly consume oil if they're static.

That minors can disband stuff or countries at war all is good and fine. Like many Axis minors are just best off to disband their quite useless Fighter-Bombers (That are not teched and will be minced down by any flying opponent, and have insignificant tactical-bombing value)



< Message edited by Cohen_slith -- 1/3/2020 8:50:18 PM >

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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/3/2020 9:25:40 PM   
Michael T


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Joined: 10/22/2006
From: Queensland, Australia.
Status: offline 		Well I disband the entire OOB of Soviet INF Corps. And build much better units instead. A mix of Cav/Mtn/Mech/Arm. Not a single INF unit bar the 2 starting Armies are retained.

I wouldn't mind seeing some restrictions on this kind of thing myself.

But in saying that, I also think the Soviet INF Corp are too weak. Sure they were bad, but not THAT bad.

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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/3/2020 9:55:50 PM   
abulbulian


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Joined: 3/31/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

As of now I feel that the Soviets mass disband of their mostly useless corps for whichever army suits the best is quite breaking the game - among other things like the infinite airplanes carriers.

Units that cost oil usually are precious units - and they hardly consume oil if they're static.

That minors can disband stuff or countries at war all is good and fine. Like many Axis minors are just best off to disband their quite useless Fighter-Bombers (That are not teched and will be minced down by any flying opponent, and have insignificant tactical-bombing value)



Another solution is to avoid playing against players that use 'gamey' tactics. If I accouter those players before they have been exposed in a forum, the game is over. You just need to be careful who you game with. I knew of several of them in WiTE and I avoided every single one of these pathetic individuals like the plague.


< Message edited by abulbulian -- 1/3/2020 9:57:31 PM >

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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/3/2020 10:10:02 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Soviet Infantry corps should be there and be speed bumps or so - I truly felt the difference in a game with them (or well games) and games with the Mechanized Armadas.
The Soviet player tend to disband all or almost all corps except a few (usually to man the ports and / or prypets)

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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/3/2020 11:38:56 PM   
Bronze

 

Posts: 194
Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		An example is you can't disband the Rumanian naval unit.

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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/4/2020 2:21:46 AM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		Disbanding naval units is verboten!! That would be gamey.

Russians is part of the course and part of the strategy. When to do it when not to do it. It represents reorganizing units in the field.

For other nations it might be reforming units to a different advancement or emergency replacements

Like you can't disband the entire Russian corps group and rebuild after Barbarossa you will be short units to defend the line. Germany will simple walk around them.

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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/4/2020 2:39:56 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		It's done beforehand Barbarossa and converted into a mighty mechanized army.

No one pratically is keeping the Soviet Corps around after the first learning-the-ropes games. It's just rebuilt pre-Barbarossa as mechs, cavs, anything but not infantry.

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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/4/2020 3:06:03 AM   
RandomAttack


Posts: 235
Joined: 7/23/2009
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		I have always enjoyed playing WWII & Eastern Front type games, but the simple fact is that it took an almost perfect storm of Soviet blunders at an obscene level for the Germans to even have a CHANCE at victory. One of my favorite books on this topic is "Inferno" by Max Hastings. In it he describes:

"In Berlin on 28 November [1941], a conference of industrialists chaired by armaments supremo Fritz Todt reached a devastating conclusion: the war against Russia was no longer winnable. Having failed to achieve a quick victory, Germany lacked resources to prevail in a sustained struggle. Next day, Todt and tank-production chief Walter Rohland met Hitler. Rohland argued that, once the United States became a belligerent, it would be impossible to match Allied industrial strength. Todt, though an ardent Nazi, said, “This war can no longer be won by military means.” Hitler demanded, “How then shall I end this war?” Todt replied that only a political outcome was feasible. Hitler dismissed such logic. He chose to convince himself that the imminent accession of Japan to the Axis would transform the balance of strength in Germany’s favour. But the November diary of army chief of staff Franz Halder records other remarks by Hitler that acknowledged the implausibility of absolute triumph. For the rest of the war, those responsible for Germany’s economic and industrial planning fulfilled their roles in the knowledge that strategic success was unattainable. They drafted a planning paper in December 1941 entitled “The Requirements for Victory.” This concluded that the Reich needed to commit the equivalent of $150 billion to arms manufacture in the succeeding two years; yet such a sum exceeded German weapons expenditure for the entire conflict. Whatever the prowess of the Wehrmacht, the nation lacked means to win; it could aspire only to force its enemies to parley, together or severally."

It's quite clear the Soviets *were* that bad initially. So while I enjoy playing a bit of "what if" as much as anyone, barring things like assassinations of major leaders, Superman landing in Heidelberg instead of Kansas, etc., a straight-up military victory by the Germans after Dec 41 just wasn't going to happen. But hey, Stalin could have had a stroke. Hitler took a calculated risk, and lost. He tried to play out the clock, hoping for a miracle. As Agent Maxwell Smart would say: "missed it by THAT much".

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RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/4/2020 3:14:47 AM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Cohen_slith

It's done beforehand Barbarossa and converted into a mighty mechanized army.

No one pratically is keeping the Soviet Corps around after the first learning-the-ropes games. It's just rebuilt pre-Barbarossa as mechs, cavs, anything but not infantry.


Read how handle the USSR in 1941 in the other thread. Try that

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Post #: 14
RE: Suggestion: Neutrals cannot Disband units - 1/4/2020 8:32:21 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 7750
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline 		It's fine and frankly the Germans can deal with it. Getting a little tired of all the crying in these forums about how things are so hopeless for the Axis.

If you want to force the Soviet to keep these worthless units, then I would insist they start at higher experience than 20. This is why they get disbanded. They are just too weak to even serve much use as speed bumps.

If their experience was 30+ I might even keep them. There is a significant opportunity cost in disbanding them.

It's just a part of this game that everyone can tailor their militaries as they wish subject to production and unit availability.

People are also far too impressed with this idea that the Soviets can spam mech and stop the Axis cold. Nope. Can be dealt with. I have done it as the Axis. But it will require a strong 1942 push. Point in fact I think it is actually a mistake for the Soviets to go all in on mech like this prewar. They can't maintain such an unbalanced army in the long run.

Go back and review my own AAR and tell me what the Germans can't do when the Soviets fall back from the border or spam mech or whatever. I dealt with all of that and still took Moscow and held it practically until 1945.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 1/4/2020 8:33:22 AM >

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