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Noob versus AI first game - 1/6/2020 11:18:32 PM   
AFlint

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 8/26/2009
Status: offline 		Hi all - been lurking here awhile and have recently made the less than $20 leap during the recent holiday sale. I have been watching XTRG and THG's YouTube matches (yes, both sides!), have read the manual, and tried out the Coral Sea scenario. Also - fantastic posts by this community have really helped.

I felt like I had a decent grasp of the game and so, I started up the full campaign (with quiet China) as the Allies on the Historical AI difficulty level...

I am only a couple weeks into the game (Dec 24) and I feel that I am absolutely crushing the Japanese AI. The KB struck PH, hit Johnston Island and then sailed off into the sunset (west direction) and I have not seen since. Outside of Pearl attack, I have lost a couple Lt cruisers, some transports and a Tanker, along with some damage to a couple CAs. I have decimated multiple amphibious task forces and the AI keeps sending more transports to the slaughter. On the morning of Dec 24 the point score stands at Japanese 3169 and Allied 11583. I feel like I should start over and amp up the difficulty.

Again, this is versus AI so I know the answer will be 'play a human' - but if I was to restart another campaign versus AI, what campaign or difficulty setting would you recommend? Should I just go right to the Ironman campaign? Or the Hakko Ichiu version? At what AI difficulty - hard, very hard? Or am I being blissfully ignorant and the AI is actually playing possum?

Very much enjoying the game!
Post #: 1
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/7/2020 12:27:17 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		I don't know much about AI difficulty levels. Just wanted to note that the term "decimated" means reduced by one tenth (in Latin anyway). A lot of people misuse that word. Perhaps they're trying to decimate it.

_____________________________



(in reply to AFlint)
Post #: 2
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/7/2020 12:30:10 AM   
Shellshock


Posts: 533
Joined: 12/31/2010
From: U.S.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AFlint

Hi all - been lurking here awhile and have recently made the less than $20 leap during the recent holiday sale. I have been watching XTRG and THG's YouTube matches (yes, both sides!), have read the manual, and tried out the Coral Sea scenario. Also - fantastic posts by this community have really helped.

I felt like I had a decent grasp of the game and so, I started up the full campaign (with quiet China) as the Allies on the Historical AI difficulty level...

I am only a couple weeks into the game (Dec 24) and I feel that I am absolutely crushing the Japanese AI. The KB struck PH, hit Johnston Island and then sailed off into the sunset (west direction) and I have not seen since. Outside of Pearl attack, I have lost a couple Lt cruisers, some transports and a Tanker, along with some damage to a couple CAs. I have decimated multiple amphibious task forces and the AI keeps sending more transports to the slaughter. On the morning of Dec 24 the point score stands at Japanese 3169 and Allied 11583. I feel like I should start over and amp up the difficulty.

Again, this is versus AI so I know the answer will be 'play a human' - but if I was to restart another campaign versus AI, what campaign or difficulty setting would you recommend? Should I just go right to the Ironman campaign? Or the Hakko Ichiu version? At what AI difficulty - hard, very hard? Or am I being blissfully ignorant and the AI is actually playing possum?



Sadly, the AI (for either side) is just not up to the level of a human player or maybe even your average possum. It has a tendency to reinforce failure over and over. Bumping up the difficulty level doesn't change this aspect of the AI by much.

Ironman would probably be your better bet over Hakko Ichui. It gives the Japanese AI a lot more toys to play with so the heavy losses don't set it back as much. Either that or play more conservatively and allow the AI to advance at least to it's historical perimeter.

I think the best game I ever had against the Japanese AI was one where I edited the Lexington and Enterprise to be at Pearl Harbor on December 7th. Incredibly, they didn't get sunk but were badly damaged and in dry-dock for months killing the usual temptation to go on early carrier raids with Admiral Halsey. The Japanese AI eventually got destroyed in the course of the camapign but it took a bit longer.

(in reply to AFlint)
Post #: 3
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/7/2020 12:55:03 AM   
CaptBeefheart


Posts: 2301
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline 		You have learned well, Grasshopper.

Ironman on Hard is probably a good idea. One thing to keep in mind is you don't want to mess too much with IJ in the early days. Withdraw where you can and let the computer side do its thing.

Another fun thing to do is run a reasonably balanced scenario or mod (non-Ironman) on Computer vs Computer on Continuous mode for about six months. Hit the "9" key (I think) to stop play. That'll give you a challenging situation to recover from as you'll have a fair number of ship, ground and air losses and your forces will be scattered all over. One thing with that is you'll find a few restricted units outside their realm (i.e. the computer cheats) and you'll have plenty of political points as the computer doesn't seem to spend those. You'll need them.

Cheers,
CB

_____________________________

Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to Shellshock)
Post #: 4
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/7/2020 1:43:13 AM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I don't know much about AI difficulty levels. Just wanted to note that the term "decimated" means reduced by one tenth (in Latin anyway). A lot of people misuse that word. Perhaps they're trying to decimate it.

+1
The Romans would divide into groups of ten, draw straws, and the other 9 would have to beat the short straw to death.
This was supposed to make getting killed in battle less scary.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 5
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/7/2020 1:55:50 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Actually, decimation was a punishment for units that failed to perform properly. Oftentimes, it was because they missed their mommies so much that they decided to run back to her.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 6
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/7/2020 3:49:58 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		Part of the problem is you are playing "Quiet China". Those scripts have NEVER been updated. All the variants date back to 2009. By contrast, the most recent AIs for Scen 1 and 2 were released a few months ago. Suffice to say, MUCH improved. That said, it's still a better game if you let the AI expand historically for the first six months. Even Scen 1 will give you an interesting game if you do that. Try to play as if you aren't an omnipotent God, with perfect foreknowledge of Japan's real capabilities and targets.

If you do that, by June 1942 you'll have an opponent that is no worse than the historical one.

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 7
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/7/2020 4:22:24 AM   
AFlint

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 8/26/2009
Status: offline 		Thank you sirs, good info. I was just sending some piecemeal surface groups to defend against incoming detected transports (or catch them unloading) - not even using CVs yet as they are just sitting off Wake. I do like the idea of computer v computer for several months and then take over.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 8
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/7/2020 5:37:44 AM   
alanschu

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline 		I recommend just loading up the game and accepting all the mistakes you make from not knowing precisely what you're doing and figure things out as you go.

I find that that is pretty good for letting the Japanese still have the initiative at the beginning and in my own learning of the game, by the time I understood what was going on it was say 1943 and I was able to make effective pushes as a result and I got to play with some of the new toys that the allies get.

(in reply to AFlint)
Post #: 9
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/7/2020 11:09:58 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alanschu

I recommend just loading up the game and accepting all the mistakes you make from not knowing precisely what you're doing and figure things out as you go.

I find that that is pretty good for letting the Japanese still have the initiative at the beginning and in my own learning of the game, by the time I understood what was going on it was say 1943 and I was able to make effective pushes as a result and I got to play with some of the new toys that the allies get.

Actually, this is a pretty good option.

Just make sure to crank up the difficulty level. The AI needs VH several days a month to push supply around or island garrisons will literally starve. If you are playing stock scenarios, a balanced game against the AI is somewhere between Hard and VERY HARD. At normal, the AI is severely handicapped.

When you play the Ironman scenarios, Andy has tried to get the AI balanced between Normal and Hard. But even with these it still needs VH several days per month to move the supply around better.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to alanschu)
Post #: 10
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/7/2020 5:04:36 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline 		Start with an original campaign scenario and let the Japanese AI do its thing for the first six months. Try the mods later. Best way to learn IMHO.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 11
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/8/2020 12:41:04 PM   
Macclan5


Posts: 1065
Joined: 3/24/2016
From: Toronto Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AFlint

On the morning of Dec 24 the point score stands at Japanese 3169 and Allied 11583.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

Part of the problem is you are playing "Quiet China". Those scripts have NEVER been updated. All the variants date back to 2009. By contrast, the most recent AIs for Scen 1 and 2 were released a few months ago. Suffice to say, MUCH improved. That said, it's still a better game if you let the AI expand historically for the first six months. Even Scen 1 will give you an interesting game if you do that. Try to play as if you aren't an omnipotent God, with perfect foreknowledge of Japan's real capabilities and targets.



December 24 1941 - correct ?

This and this

You have not yet lost Luzon / Manila. You have not yet lost Singapore. You have not yet lost the DEI. You probably have not lost Rangoon or the Burma road.

You may even be able to hold "some of the above" but not without substantial risk / trade off.

You have indeed had success crushing a number of Amphibious landings seemingly at Wake (If I read carefully). Congratulations that is a success - a Nimitz victory based on calculated risk.

Your opponent has other objectives / ships and troops coming ; and may offer a surprise to you.

I recommend you continue to play to see if you have the same opinion on June 7 1942 !

If you do restart - Do not play quiet China. In addition to the scripts not updated you are missing out on an essential facet of learning and enjoying the game. The quirky ground combat has its own mastery - but is a part of the overall experience




_____________________________

A People that values its privileges above it's principles will soon loose both. Dwight D Eisenhower.

(in reply to AFlint)
Post #: 12
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/8/2020 7:32:55 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Not to mention that with quiet China, you are not losing a lot of points there.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Macclan5)
Post #: 13
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/8/2020 10:02:53 PM   
alanschu

 

Posts: 405
Joined: 12/21/2006
Status: offline 		Yeah I totally missed the points question, but at the start the Americans will look to be "winning handily" because they haven't lost (and Japan gained) some of the super valuable bases. There's not much for combat VP yet, but for example in my game (Jan 4) Manila has VP score of Japan 550(50) and Allies 1100(100).

(the way to read the "Value to" is 2xAir Capacity + port capacity * nation modifier in brackets. In this case 11 * 50 for Japan.

When I eventually lose Manila, there will be a 1650 point swing towards Japan (not counting the score for wiping out my ground forces and airplanes in the area). Singapore will see over 2000 point swing, and Rangoon is another big one.

My game is currently
Japan: 8255
Allies: 10825

That said, the AI can be pretty irresponsible with its landing forces, so in that sense the Hakko Ichiu and Ironman campaigns will help the AI endure some of that. Where were the landings?

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 14
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/8/2020 11:25:14 PM   
AFlint

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 8/26/2009
Status: offline 		You are correct Macclan5, it is only Dec '41 so there's a lot of ground that has not been taken YET. In summary - I 'Sir Robined' Malaya peninsula into Singapore, pulled back to Clark Field and Manilla, repelled invasions off north Borneo with Force Z who is mostly intact, repelled Wake invasion with CVs help, but they have managed to land a small force at Rabaul. As I mentioned in original post, I have yet to really see KB after Pearl so I concede I may have some surprises ahead, but just amazed at the losses the AI takes with it amphib assaults basically unprotected and thought I'd check with community on what I'm experiencing.

I'll play this out some more as I am still learning and having a lot of fun.

(in reply to alanschu)
Post #: 15
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/9/2020 9:13:46 PM   
basilstaghare

 

Posts: 173
Joined: 7/5/2015
Status: offline 		New player here as well but my experience has been different...perhaps because I’m a mediocre player at best!

Started the Ironman scenario on hard as Allies and am playing thru my mistakes as I learn. February 20, 1942 and I’m getting a spanking by the AI. I lost Manila a few days ago. Singapore is not long for this world and the Solomon AO / Port Moresby is being pressed. Due to my own inefficiency and mistakes (don’t run out of fuel with your CV TF near Canton Is) I have found the game to be both exciting and challenging. The only place I’m doing decent in is China. Restart an Ironman on Hard and play thru your mistakes as was suggested earlier. It’s been fun for me!

(in reply to AFlint)
Post #: 16
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/9/2020 9:38:18 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AFlint

I am still learning and having a lot of fun.



quote:

ORIGINAL: basilstaghare

It’s been fun for me!


At the end of the day, whatever scenario you play, however well you play it, THAT is the most important thing!

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to basilstaghare)
Post #: 17
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/9/2020 9:55:29 PM   
basilstaghare

 

Posts: 173
Joined: 7/5/2015
Status: offline 		Agreed.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 18
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/10/2020 12:46:32 AM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I don't know much about AI difficulty levels. Just wanted to note that the term "decimated" means reduced by one tenth (in Latin anyway). A lot of people misuse that word. Perhaps they're trying to decimate it.

+1
The Romans would divide into groups of ten, draw straws, and the other 9 would have to beat the short straw to death.
This was supposed to make getting killed in battle less scary.


That was (obviously) hard on the guy that drew the short straw. But it must have been difficult for the others too. It'd be easier if they gave the guy with the short straw an Eagles jersey. That would have helped me at least.

_____________________________


(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 19
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/10/2020 2:45:52 AM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I don't know much about AI difficulty levels. Just wanted to note that the term "decimated" means reduced by one tenth (in Latin anyway). A lot of people misuse that word. Perhaps they're trying to decimate it.

+1
The Romans would divide into groups of ten, draw straws, and the other 9 would have to beat the short straw to death.
This was supposed to make getting killed in battle less scary.


That was (obviously) hard on the guy that drew the short straw. But it must have been difficult for the others too. It'd be easier if they gave the guy with the short straw an Eagles jersey. That would have helped me at least.

It's time for your medication, CB.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Zorch -- 1/10/2020 2:46:03 AM >

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 20
RE: Noob versus AI first game - 1/10/2020 4:24:13 PM   
CMDRMCTOAST


Posts: 673
Joined: 5/3/2003
From: Mount Vernon wa..
Status: offline 		Its great to learn the basics from the AI, logistics, ship movements, troop movements and coordination's etc.. but it will also teach some bad habits mainly overconfidence in winning, so when you go into a PBEM your games will not go so well to the point of discouragement,
I suggest playing a few months with the AI but get into a PBEM game and possibly find a player who is willing to teach you what your doing wrong as hes taking it to you or at least explaining what and why he did certain things to achieve the outcome as that makes you a better player and opponent for the next games.
plus interacting with live people is a lot more fun if time is available.

_____________________________

The essence of military genius is to bring under
consideration all of the tendencies of the mind
and soul in combination towards the business of
war..... Karl von Clausewitz

(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 21
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