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Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 10:50:21 AM   
captnchuck67

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 11/27/2016
Status: offline 		Why can't the B-17 bomb Rabaul? Heck,they can't even reach Lae? What am I doing wrong?
Post #: 1
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 11:07:09 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		You'll have to give us enough information to have any clue what you're talking about. If you're the Japanese player, that's the problem. If you're the Allied player and you're B-17s are based at Noumea, that's the problem. If you're the Allied player and your -17s are based at Port Moresby but the pilots have 79 fatigue and a leading officer with an aggression rating of 13 and there were heavy thunderstorms during the turn, that's the problem. If you have 2 B-17s operating from max range against 295 fresh enemy fighters, that's the problem. There could be any number of reasons that a bombing mission doesn't work. You have to give us enough info to figure out what you're doing wrong or what you've overlooked in evaluating the possible issues.

(in reply to captnchuck67)
Post #: 2
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 11:11:28 AM   
captnchuck67

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 11/27/2016
Status: offline 		Okay I have fresh units based at Charter Towers and Townsville. D models. They are telling me it is out of range

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 3
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 11:21:35 AM   
alimentary

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 3/22/2010
Status: offline 		B17D has extended range of 22 hexes. From Townsville it is 24 hexes to Rabaul. That's out of range.

The "Maximum range" specified for the unit is the range for transfers -- you can transfer the unit from one of your bases to another one of your bases within the maximum range of 63 hexes.

Normal range is the range to which bombing missions can be carried out with full load.
Extended range is the range to which bombing missions can be carried out with reduced load.
Maximum range is the range for transfers.

(in reply to captnchuck67)
Post #: 4
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 11:27:43 AM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: captnchuck67

Okay I have fresh units based at Charter Towers and Townsville. D models. They are telling me it is out of range

Look closer.

It may be telling you the airfield is too small for the B-17.

The B-17 needs an airfield size of 5.

Airfield Size:
Size 0: Seaplanes only - if coastal
Size 1: Fighters / Recon
Size 2: Fighters (full ability), Dive and Torp bombers
Size 4: Level Bombers - all Japanese planes work well from here
Size 5: B-17s
Size 7: B-29s

From the manual (section 7.2.1.7)
Level bombers flying out of a small airfield cannot fly at extended range,
and will be treated as if they are flying at extended range when bombing targets at normal range.
Planes flying a Naval or ASW Search Mission will carry an extended range bomb load.

In order to avoid these penalties, the size of the airbase needs to be equal to:
4 + (Max load of aircraft / 6500), All fractions are rounded down.
Thus, an A-20A requires a minimum size 4 base, a B17-E requires a minimum size 5 base,
and a B29 requires a minimum size 7 base.






< Message edited by Trugrit -- 1/11/2020 11:39:23 AM >

(in reply to captnchuck67)
Post #: 5
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 11:51:23 AM   
captnchuck67

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 11/27/2016
Status: offline 		Thanks.

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Post #: 6
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 11:55:48 AM   
L0ckAndL0ad


Posts: 183
Joined: 4/13/2018
From: Pale Blue Dot
Status: offline 		Off the top of my head, historically, B-17s had to land and refuel somewhere along the way, to be able to bomb stuff in New Guinea, while being based in Oz. Obviously, you can't do that in WITP AE.

< Message edited by L0ckAndL0ad -- 1/11/2020 12:06:05 PM >

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Post #: 7
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 12:48:57 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Bookmark and go through this:

Useful Info for Beginners
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2576157

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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(in reply to L0ckAndL0ad)
Post #: 8
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 1:51:29 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		The game does not facilitate staging to a forward base and then flying a mission all in the same turn, so so things that were done historically cannot be recreated in game.

It takes two turns to do this. Stage forward one turn and fly the mission the next.

Yes, it's wrong in the sense of historical accuracy, but it's just the way the game is and we have all accepted it.

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Hans


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Post #: 9
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 2:05:08 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		As an add on Hans, the game doesn't allow for an extended range launch from an Aircraft Carrier to a target and then land on a closer base after the attack (the Japanese tried this tactic a number of times later in the war).

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 10
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 6:38:33 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Does someone need a referral to an Opthalmologist to have their cataracts out? People who "see" mistakes in WitP-AE invariably need their eyes examined.

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Post #: 11
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 7:33:04 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Now now, we were all "nobs" once.

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Post #: 12
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 7:37:23 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		I remember way back when, I asked "how do you get torpedoes for your torpedo bombers at a base?" Well I now know that a stork flies by once a month and delivers to all bases that have excess cookies and milk. So now I know. Its easy with time. Heck I MUST know, as I've got so many posts to my credit!!!!! No "nob" here.

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 13
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 8:46:46 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal
Heck I MUST know, as I've got so many posts to my credit!!!!! No "nob" here.


Pfft...noob.

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Post #: 14
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 8:47:25 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Does someone need a referral to an Opthalmologist to have their cataracts out? People who "see" mistakes in WitP-AE invariably need their eyes examined.


To be fair, he didn't say *where* he saw the mistake. To thine own self be true.

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Post #: 15
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 8:48:01 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
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From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
If you're the Japanese player, that's the problem.



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Post #: 16
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 8:54:08 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal
Heck I MUST know, as I've got so many posts to my credit!!!!! No "nob" here.


Pfft...noob.

Ok, ok, it's a relative concept....

(in reply to Chickenboy)
Post #: 17
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 10:56:46 PM   
Zorch

 

Posts: 7087
Joined: 3/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal
Heck I MUST know, as I've got so many posts to my credit!!!!! No "nob" here.


Pfft...noob.

Ok, ok, it's a relative concept....

The more success, the more long lost relatives you never knew you had come out of the woodwork.

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 18
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/11/2020 10:56:53 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

As an add on Hans, the game doesn't allow for an extended range launch from an Aircraft Carrier to a target and then land on a closer base after the attack (the Japanese tried this tactic a number of times later in the war).


How close do you need to be to a 'staging base' to fly a mission on the same day?

Or does it just not happen?

Other than CAP (with high fatigue following), I can't recall seeing it happen.

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(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 19
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/12/2020 1:28:54 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: captnchuck67

Okay I have fresh units based at Charter Towers and Townsville. D models. They are telling me it is out of range

You should be aware that the D model has almost no defensive armament or armour. It is easy pickings for Zekes. Until you can send escorts with them, you might be better using them for bombing the Japanese where there is no air cover.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to captnchuck67)
Post #: 20
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/12/2020 1:33:07 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

As an add on Hans, the game doesn't allow for an extended range launch from an Aircraft Carrier to a target and then land on a closer base after the attack (the Japanese tried this tactic a number of times later in the war).


How close do you need to be to a 'staging base' to fly a mission on the same day?

Or does it just not happen?

Other than CAP (with high fatigue following), I can't recall seeing it happen.

NO combination of staging and strike during the same turn can be set in the orders phase. You might, as a fluke, give orders for a squadron to fly to another base and then have the commander mount an attack on his own initiative, but if it is even possible I have never seen it.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 21
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/14/2020 8:13:31 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

How close do you need to be to a 'staging base' to fly a mission on the same day?

Or does it just not happen?


AFAIK its supposed to work, but knowing the game I'm sure a ton of 'die rolls' will determine whether it does or not. TBH I don't really recall if it dose or not myself. I used it, or attempted to do so at times. I'll have to keep a closer eye on it in the future.

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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 22
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/14/2020 9:29:23 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		"Staging" an air raid in this game is a three day process, you send the A/C forward to the take off base on day one, bomb your target on day two, return to your start point on day three. As BB indicates, you can't do it otherwise. It might have been nice if on day two you could have your A/C return to their "home port" (the base they originated from on day one) but unlike a task force there is no ability to do that with aircraft.

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 1/14/2020 9:31:20 PM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 23
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/15/2020 9:37:27 PM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		Actually its a One Day thing (supposing the "Day" equal turn and starts with Replay.

E.G.:
0. You are giving orders for the next turn, order the unit from Home Base A to Forward Base B (the transfer), and give it orders to fly a daylight mission to bomb X
1. Unit is exposed to whatever could happen to Forward Base B during the Single Night Phase (Naval bombardment/Night air bombing).
2. Still within the same turn resolution now follows the Morning Air phase - the unit will probably fly its assigned mission to bomb X (rolls, etc.)
3. Still within the same turn resolution now follows the Afternoon Air phase - the unit will probably wait this out (exceptions being CAP/Escort/Naval Attack/Naval Search/ASW which are flown on both AM/PM phases) and subjected to retaliation.
4. Turn ends. During the next order phase you move the unit from Forward Base B to Home Base A.
5. During another turn resolution the unit is already on Home Base A.

Thus in fact the unit is based on Forward Base B during a single day period - One Night Phase, AM Phase, PM Phase.
IRL it was similar - say Townsville to Port Moresby transfer happened during the evening to land at PM with the darkness approaching. Planes would be refueled, crew rested. Early morning next day they would probably be already in the air (so as no to be caught on ground) en route to target. Once back from the mission, they would land at PM, refuel and depart back to Townsville ASAP. This minimized risks of being on ground at Port Moresby AF, but resulted in Townsville-PM and PM-Rabaul-PM-Townsville time spent in the air during less than 24 hours!



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Post #: 24
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/15/2020 10:18:44 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Good point Barb! Never thought of giving strike orders before being in range (other than carrier aircraft that have their airfield close the range). Don't think I will try that with anything but a very well rested unit, but it could come in handy in an emergency! Thanks for the explanation!

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Barb)
Post #: 25
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/17/2020 7:01:14 AM   
Barb


Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		Beware, the transfer range from Home Base A to Front Base B should be as short as possible with well rested group. It is very common to have such unit jump forward only to see it sitting on the base the whole day without doing the intended strike mission (subject to rolls, fatigue, etc).

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Post #: 26
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/17/2020 11:41:08 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

Actually its a One Day thing (supposing the "Day" equal turn and starts with Replay.

E.G.:
0. You are giving orders for the next turn, order the unit from Home Base A to Forward Base B (the transfer), and give it orders to fly a daylight mission to bomb X
1. Unit is exposed to whatever could happen to Forward Base B during the Single Night Phase (Naval bombardment/Night air bombing).
2. Still within the same turn resolution now follows the Morning Air phase - the unit will probably fly its assigned mission to bomb X (rolls, etc.)
3. Still within the same turn resolution now follows the Afternoon Air phase - the unit will probably wait this out (exceptions being CAP/Escort/Naval Attack/Naval Search/ASW which are flown on both AM/PM phases) and subjected to retaliation.
4. Turn ends. During the next order phase you move the unit from Forward Base B to Home Base A.
5. During another turn resolution the unit is already on Home Base A.

Thus in fact the unit is based on Forward Base B during a single day period - One Night Phase, AM Phase, PM Phase.
IRL it was similar - say Townsville to Port Moresby transfer happened during the evening to land at PM with the darkness approaching. Planes would be refueled, crew rested. Early morning next day they would probably be already in the air (so as no to be caught on ground) en route to target. Once back from the mission, they would land at PM, refuel and depart back to Townsville ASAP. This minimized risks of being on ground at Port Moresby AF, but resulted in Townsville-PM and PM-Rabaul-PM-Townsville time spent in the air during less than 24 hours!





Depending on the distance staged the air unit will either not fly in the morning phase and fly the assigned mission in the afternoon phase OR not fly at all and wait until the next day to execute the mission.

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 27
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/17/2020 5:48:11 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

Off the top of my head, historically, B-17s had to land and refuel somewhere along the way, to be able to bomb stuff in New Guinea, while being based in Oz. Obviously, you can't do that in WITP AE.


You can of course, fly them to Port Moresby and then bomb Rabaul. Then fly them back to Townsville. Where's the prob?

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Post #: 28
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/17/2020 6:21:51 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

Off the top of my head, historically, B-17s had to land and refuel somewhere along the way, to be able to bomb stuff in New Guinea, while being based in Oz. Obviously, you can't do that in WITP AE.


You can of course, fly them to Port Moresby and then bomb Rabaul. Then fly them back to Townsville. Where's the prob?


Too much work for someone? maybe?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 29
RE: Okay I see a mistake - 1/18/2020 4:09:41 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: L0ckAndL0ad

Off the top of my head, historically, B-17s had to land and refuel somewhere along the way, to be able to bomb stuff in New Guinea, while being based in Oz. Obviously, you can't do that in WITP AE.


You can of course, fly them to Port Moresby and then bomb Rabaul. Then fly them back to Townsville. Where's the prob?


Too much work for someone? maybe?

Or the time they have to sit on the ground, during which a Japanese raid or bombardment could hit them.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 30
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