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RE: Italy surrenders to paras !

 
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RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/3/2020 2:19:43 PM   
PanzerMike


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Emporer
This is the a sitiation which I have difficulties in every wargames where paras jumping around the map soley by them self. Paratroopers was allmost allwas used as part of a ground offensives to support it. So to solve this issue with paras, they should only be used on hexes adjacent to own ground forces.

There were exceptions ofcourse. Think Crete for example. But even Market Garden on Warplan scale means the furthest paradrop would have been two or three hexes away from the nearest land unit. So allowing adjacent hexes for paradrop only, would be too restrictive IMHO.

(in reply to Emporer)
Post #: 31
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/4/2020 11:54:45 AM   
Emporer

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 2/12/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PanzerMike


quote:

ORIGINAL: Emporer
This is the a sitiation which I have difficulties in every wargames where paras jumping around the map soley by them self. Paratroopers was allmost allwas used as part of a ground offensives to support it. So to solve this issue with paras, they should only be used on hexes adjacent to own ground forces.

There were exceptions ofcourse. Think Crete for example. But even Market Garden on Warplan scale means the furthest paradrop would have been two or three hexes away from the nearest land unit. So allowing adjacent hexes for paradrop only, would be too restrictive IMHO.

Hi

Market Garden is a perfect example how the use of paratroopers was used. In the same time the 1st para is dropped next to your ground unit this creates an incitament to drop the next one 2 hexes from the ground unit because when a paratroopers lands it became a ground unit. This means if you have 3 paras you should be able to drop last paratrooper unit 3 hexes away from your ground units.
To limit this is far more realistic use of paras also and get rid of this unrealstic use of paratroopers.
Even at Crete the paras was not the only troops that where to attack the island, there was also a sea invasion with 2.300 soldier ongoing but it was driven back due to naval forces from the allied in the area, (say in gameterms it was an interception).
So i cant see any problem with this, and this is by far better solution than having paras dropping everywhere.

Cheers
Captain Jack

< Message edited by Emporer -- 2/4/2020 11:56:45 AM >

(in reply to PanzerMike)
Post #: 32
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/4/2020 1:12:07 PM   
PanzerMike


Posts: 888
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline 		If the hex next to your ground unit is occupied by an enemy unit, you can't drop a parachute division there. So the carpet can't be rolled out.

British XXX corps had opposing enemy units. So no paradrops there. No paradrops there, means no paradrop at Nijmegen and Arnhem.

In order for what you propose to work, the game should allow paradrops on enemy units.

< Message edited by PanzerMike -- 2/4/2020 1:14:01 PM >

(in reply to Emporer)
Post #: 33
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/4/2020 8:08:45 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
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From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Italians in an ai game as axis surrendered to a rougue brit unit fleeing france...
Allies where bottled up in North africa and southern france. Italy was whole and surrendered when unit took one northern city..
hummm maybe the surrendering rules need to be addressed ?

(in reply to Emporer)
Post #: 34
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/9/2020 4:30:05 AM   
rowdied1

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline 		I have played 3 games now and each time US enters war Italy sues for peace. Makes no difference what I do they always surrender.
Why?
I think there is a bug somewhere as the games before 1.05 patch I could make it to 1943 at least.
I cannot be the only one to experience this, am I?
Makes it real hard to like the game now

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 35
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/9/2020 7:13:13 AM   
Meteor2


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From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Italians in an ai game as axis surrendered to a rougue brit unit fleeing france...
Allies where bottled up in North africa and southern france. Italy was whole and surrendered when unit took one northern city..
hummm maybe the surrendering rules need to be addressed ?


If that's the case (and I have no doubts, that you are right), something has to be done by Alvaro.

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 36
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/9/2020 3:53:59 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		What was the state of Italy at the time? Were they clear of enemy troops? Were they invaded by the Brits?

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
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(in reply to Meteor2)
Post #: 37
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/9/2020 8:28:52 PM   
rowdied1

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline 		3 different states.

1st time, partisans from Switzerland occupied Milan.

2nd time, US entered war and about 2 turns later they surrendered. at the time, Italy controlled all of the Africa from the Pacific right up to Alexandra. They controlled Crete and Malta. Germans controlled all of mainland Europe up and not yet invaded England or Russia. this happened into 1942 around spring time. Italy had over 500 production points and over 250 oil reserves. I was preparing to take Alexandra and also invade Russia.

3rd time was just this week. Germany invaded England and about to take it over, Italy has Africa from Pacific to Egypt. morale was at 48 at end of November when US declared war. Oil reserves at zero and 440 stockpiled production. Morale went past breaking point to 56. Next turn they will surrender with no reason to. No-one has invaded Italy, I have almost all major cities garrisoned.

Up to date with 1.05.

This never happened before until late in the war after summer of 44 around there they surrendered.

thanks!!

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 38
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/9/2020 10:42:42 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		What was Italy's morale and morale surrender number when it happened?

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to rowdied1)
Post #: 39
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/10/2020 6:29:37 AM   
rowdied1

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline 		The morale before surrender was 48 and the breaking point was 33. After US declared war about 2 turns later the breaking point was 56 but morale was still 48. They then sued for peace.
thanks!

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 40
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/10/2020 3:38:20 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		But you had some units occupying Italian cities from the Swiss?

I can add a requirement that all of Africa needs to be Allied which seems prudent.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to rowdied1)
Post #: 41
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/10/2020 7:59:47 PM   
rowdied1

 

Posts: 15
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline 		No, there were no partisans nor swiss anywhere nearby.

I can send you the save file later if you like?

I ran it again from the save point before they capitulated and they did it again in about 4-5 turns. US entered war and Italy with no warning other than Italy sends out peace feelers during ai turn do you even have an idea this might happen. When the ai turn ends you have lost Italy.

thanks

I do have diplomacy on and have for the other times Italy capitulated.

< Message edited by rowdied1 -- 2/10/2020 8:03:45 PM >

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 42
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/10/2020 8:41:55 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		I PMed you

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to rowdied1)
Post #: 43
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/11/2020 3:04:36 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Italy was whole one brit unit in north they held territory in NA and war was being won

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 44
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/11/2020 3:04:55 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Italians in an ai game as axis surrendered to a rougue brit unit fleeing france...
Allies where bottled up in North africa and southern france. Italy was whole and surrendered when unit took one northern city..
hummm maybe the surrendering rules need to be addressed ?


If that's the case (and I have no doubts, that you are right), something has to be done by Alvaro.



(in reply to Meteor2)
Post #: 45
RE: Italy surrenders to paras ! - 2/11/2020 3:45:30 AM   
DMcCooey206

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 12/28/2016
Status: offline 		But, I believe it Surrenders immediately? So Rover line backer or Counter attack is Moot? Or am I missing something?

This does bring up a "problem" that I hope Alvaro can correct.. the gamey problem of the soak off mission. As the Defendant has testified, he simply Strategic bombed nearby to insure his PARA's could land Interception free. The same problem exists upon pre-naval invasions that are reliant upon Good LBA's defending. I believe this issue should be tackled next. I know it's going to be a Significant correction, coding wise. But I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who dislikes it?

I guess one more simple fix is to Not limit passive interceptions to 2 missions. Allow the possibility of more so that the Attacker can't simply rely on 2 cheap soak offs. The the Attacker can't be certain, or that he has to really establish local air superiority.

On the plus side, I'm now excited to explore the Para sleaze again

(in reply to tyronec)
Post #: 46
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