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Beaming - 2/11/2020 12:29:24 AM

Frostitute

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So I might be missing something here, but enemies beaming my missiles are causing me great difficulty. Even when lowering my altitude significantly I still get a huge miss rate against targets at 36k. My current campaign pits the F-15C against the Mig-29 frequently using the AIM-7M, and most of my kills end up simply using the Sparrow to close the gap for a Sidewinder shot rather than getting anywhere with up to 8 Sparrow shots. I would have thought illuminating a target above would be a sure fire way to avoid beaming - the AIM-7 illuminator would, I assume, only be lighting up the target and not the ground below it unless it has a lot wider of a beam than I have assumed, anyway. And avoiding a lofted shot at close ranges would also, I assume, be able to defeat a high altitude beaming opponent.

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RE: Beaming - 2/11/2020 6:43:44 AM

Dimitris

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Is there a save file we can use to investigate?

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RE: Beaming - 2/11/2020 8:10:42 AM

serjames

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SARH Missile tech sucks... I change the WRA to try and always use two shooters, salvo of two missiles, try and get the shooters on triangular approaches to increase final approach angle and POH. Don't let the Migs get close.... or their high off bore IR counter fire is a sure-fire way of losing Eagles in my experience. I think I have lost more F-15s in dog fights with Mig-29s than any other combo.

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RE: Beaming - 2/11/2020 12:41:16 PM

thewood1

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From a very basic search of wikipedia...From Six Decades of Guided Munitions by Barry Watts

From 1991 Gulf War F-15C:

Firing attempts: 44*
Hits: 30 (68.2%)
Kills: 24/26 (54.5%/59.1%)
Initial BVR Shots: 19 (43%)
* Omits 44 �expenditures� in logistics
records not in decisive engagements

I have seen other stats from other sources that make these look a little optimistic. Mainly because these stats ignore a bunch of low probability shots that were stated to have been suppression shots. I am a little skeptical of that. And keep in mind, almost all of these shots were against 2nd/3rd gen fighters, ground attack, recon, and bombers. The F-15s were also in a very favorable ECM environment. Against a maneuvering Mig-29 with a decent pilot, I would expect much lower rates than even these.

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RE: Beaming - 2/11/2020 12:45:22 PM

thewood1

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This one of the other sources I had seen...

https://www.456fis.org/AIM-7_SPARROW.htm

"The combat record of recent Sparrow missiles (AIM-7M/P) is much better than that of the AIM-7D/E of the Vietnam era. In Operation Desert Storm, 26 Iraqi aircraft were shot down with AIM-7 missiles, with 71 AIM-7s fired (a hit rate of 37%)."

Not sure how authoritative it is.

edit: Tom Clancy's Fighter Wing also quotes the 36% of 71 AIM-7Ms fired in combat in 1991.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 2/11/2020 12:51:42 PM >

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RE: Beaming - 2/12/2020 12:48:43 AM

Frostitute

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Its happening in almost/actually every playthrough of the mission, First Night in the Desert Storm campaign. And whilst discussions of the hit rate might be interesting, the issue is more that the seeker is showing "blind" and the missile is failing (disappearing) exclusively through the new beaming addition rather than due to the high manoeuvrability of the enemy or poor kinematic performance. In terms of missile performance excluding the beaming effect it would appear to fall in line with the hit rates predicted here. I just found it curious that lowering the shooter altitude did not make any difference to the enemy beaming which, as far as I am aware, should no longer be possible.

In further testing I've found it acts as normal in the quick battle mode, so I'd assume it either doesn't happen over water or a newer database has solved the issue. My primary confusion was if it was working as intended and had not yet been programmed, or was abnormal. It seems the latter and something about that mission in particular is causing the problem. That said I am incredibly pleased with the new additions to air warfare which was my primary reason for upgrading, air combat has felt behind for some time and the upgrade is making huge strides forwards.

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RE: Beaming - 2/12/2020 2:09:34 AM

thewood1

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I am sure there is some abstraction in there. The beaming is most likely used to add to the PoH modifiers. My own testing has shown hit rates on Mig-21s around 40% and Mig-29s at less than 20%. these are all head on engagements at same altitude and no ECM.

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RE: Beaming - 2/12/2020 11:16:26 AM

c3k

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Beaming is not just hiding behind background returns. (All this is AIUI and IMHO.) Radars include a doppler "notch" that filters out low-speed returns. It is this low (relative) speed that is the goal of beaming.

If the algorithm tosses out anything below 30 knots, then it doesn't matter if the Mig is above or below the F15: if it is at 90^, then it has an effective relative doppler velocity of 0. The radar display algorithm will toss it out.

Not saying that is what is happening here, but that is how doppler notching works.

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RE: Beaming - 2/18/2020 8:54:06 AM

Frostitute

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So I looked into the problem further. I'm not allowed to post links but it shows my aircraft at 25k and the enemy at 35k. My F-16A ADF 1990 against an Iraqi Mig-29A 1987. Two missiles (AIM-7M) fired at 18nm, both blind (for 4.5 sec at that point). The missiles lofted to 37k and 40k. It would seem that despite the shooters being below the enemy threat, the missiles loft puts it above the threat. Two problems come to mind for me. Firstly if the radar is only highlighting the enemy target the missile, I would assume, wouldn't have a problem spotting the target. Secondly, particularly in this image the AIM-7 can have its loft deactivated and the targets are 18nm from the aircraft. I would assume if the loft is that much of a problem they would have avoided it on the follow up shots.

thewood1, the game seems to show the seekers "blind" whilst being beamed. I haven't seen any PoH modifiers used at all, and the game is excellent at describing which PoH modifiers are in play through the combat log. When the game was first released it would only count the agility rating. Now it includes the agility rating, altitude, aircraft weight, the aspect, pilot skill, sometimes speed, and I'm sure I've forgotten a few more. Typically high performance aircraft do very well against poor accuracy missiles, but as the accuracy increases they become significantly more deadly. Ie two 35% missiles are far worse than one 70% missile. Countermeasures/jamming is counted separately, performs a little worse than I had anticipated but overall hit rates seem accurate.

c3k, beaming is usually exploiting that doppler notch rather than hiding behind the background, yes. However every aircraft I know of automatically switches off the doppler filter when pointed above the horizon unless manually deactivated. Earlier radars had no problem targetting threats above the horizon so there is no need to reduce the radar's effectiveness there. Hence the importance of remaining below the threat in western doctrine - whilst your missile range would be reduced you also reduce the ability for the enemy to defend and disrupt the ability of the enemy to threaten you (particularly against non-doppler radars).

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Post #: 9