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Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been reversed ?

 
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Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been rever... - 2/13/2020 5:00:02 AM   
Timotheus

 

Posts: 481
Joined: 12/13/2013
Status: offline 		Am watching a youtube letsplay by thehistoricalgamer who is fighting xtrg.
In one of the comments I find this:

"One of the reasons for the Japanese dominance in the entire war campaign in China is a mistake in the database that I discovered in the scenario editor. It involves the unit TOE's of Japanese ground units. The upgrade paths have been reversed in error, such that many Japanese units start the war with late war TOE strengths that will "upgrade" later in the war to the 1941 TOE's. This can be easily fixed, as I have done with my scenario editor. Also a few British & Indian units had the same issues, but the Japanese ones were much more significant. The good news is that they can be corrected by the average player, just by going into the Scenario Editor and making the necessary adjustments before starting the game. There are a few Editor adjustments that will 'take' in the middle of a game. I have made a considerable number of adjustments in the Scenario Editor to increase historical accuracy, and correct errors made by the game's database developers to devices, ground units, air units, ship classes, ships, aircraft, leaders, pilots, and locations including location names."

???

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Post #: 1
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 5:14:11 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Some units were changed to make them better for fighting in the jungle, resulting in fewer heavier weapons.

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(in reply to Timotheus)
Post #: 2
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 5:19:35 AM   
GetAssista

 

Posts: 2732
Joined: 9/19/2009
Status: offline 		The thing he might've taken for the error (which it is not) is the drop in IJA infantry squad firepower along the upgrade path.

It looks like the guy has his own preconceived views on how things should be with Japan (yeah, he's playing the Allies). There's no point discussing w/o concrete examples, but I would not be surprised if his corrections are mostly about nerfing Japan.



< Message edited by GetAssista -- 2/13/2020 5:20:00 AM >

(in reply to Timotheus)
Post #: 3
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 5:41:14 AM   
Timotheus

 

Posts: 481
Joined: 12/13/2013
Status: offline 		"Also a few British & Indian units had the same issues, but the Japanese ones were much more significant"

quote:

Also a few British & Indian units had the same issues, but the Japanese ones were much more significant


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INSTALL WITPAE on modern PC
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(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 4
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 6:10:07 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

"Also a few British & Indian units had the same issues, but the Japanese ones were much more significant"

quote:

Also a few British & Indian units had the same issues, but the Japanese ones were much more significant



Repeating yourself does not make it true. Many countries reduced the number of men in units either because of manpower shortages or the men were not needed.

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(in reply to Timotheus)
Post #: 5
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 6:29:23 AM   
Timotheus

 

Posts: 481
Joined: 12/13/2013
Status: offline 		It's not repeating myself, I am repeating what the original writer wrote on youtube.

I posted this because I am curious myself about this reduction in firepower for Japanese (and some) Allied units.

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War in the Pacific Poradnik po Polsku
http://tinyurl.com/nxd4cesh

INSTALL WITPAE on modern PC
https://tinyurl.com/l5kr6rl

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 6
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 6:48:26 AM   
Kursk1943

 

Posts: 445
Joined: 3/15/2014
From: Bavaria in Southern Germany
Status: offline 		As others said before: maybe it is because of the most obvious reason for reducing personnel and equipment in late war. Lack of it.

For example the German army in WWII reduced the armoured regiments in the armoured divisions from two to one in 1941 and especially on the Eastern Front reduced the number if infantry regiments in InfDivs from three to two in 1942.
In late war TOEs the number of soldiers was reduced for a different reason: you could provide the same or more firepower with less soldiers because of the increased equipment with semi-automatic and automatic weapons.

Perhaps some of the wise men will commment about a possible dev's error.

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RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 7:21:29 AM   
Alfred

 

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Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

The thing he might've taken for the error (which it is not) is the drop in IJA infantry squad firepower along the upgrade path.

It looks like the guy has his own preconceived views on how things should be with Japan (yeah, he's playing the Allies). There's no point discussing w/o concrete examples, but I would not be surprised if his corrections are mostly about nerfing Japan.




Why is it I'm not surprised another opinionated individual demonstrates their ignorance of the complexity involved in creating AE.

Assuming GetAssista has correctly identified the so perceived problem (and I'm inclined to agree with him but who knows for certain based on the paucity of information provided to date) this July 2018 thread

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4507826&mpage=1&key=�

goes into considerable detail on this issue. Don't overlook the earlier 2011 thread which is embedded in the 2018 thread.

Alfred

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 8
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 11:54:42 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		can someone confirm this is scenario specific? I am seeing different #s in Da-Babes...

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 9
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 1:02:20 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Bit OT:

About changing TOEs. While not related to Japan or Pacific, e.g German and Finnish divisions dropped from 9 infantry battalions to 7.

Finnish Army used the division's "extra" independent battalion to man it with older troops waiting to be sent home. Thus it gained nickname "Santa Claus battalion". You can guess why...

It was soon seen as mistake, since it caused disparity between it and 6 other battalions in fighting fitness. So that policy was dropped and troops mixed between battalions.

In 1944 summer battles, FDF had to conscript those 39-40 yr old troops back to service.

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RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 1:28:16 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Maybe that extra Finnish battalion used the reindeer sleighs?

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 11
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 2:05:34 PM   
inqistor


Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

can someone confirm this is scenario specific? I am seeing different #s in Da-Babes...

If you are asking about Japanese Squads upgrade, Andy made some quick&dirty fix, and gave them better AT strength instead. But you have to find those Scenarios somewhere in modding section, they are not included in patch (it will also fix 12cm AA Rockets, which still doesn't work in stock).

Still, nobody have included Type 100 SMG, or Type 4 AT Launcher in case of invasion of mainland.

(in reply to Jorge_Stanbury)
Post #: 12
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 2:11:47 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

can someone confirm this is scenario specific? I am seeing different #s in Da-Babes...

If you are asking about Japanese Squads upgrade, Andy made some quick&dirty fix, and gave them better AT strength instead. But you have to find those Scenarios somewhere in modding section, they are not included in patch (it will also fix 12cm AA Rockets, which still doesn't work in stock).

Still, nobody have included Type 100 SMG, or Type 4 AT Launcher in case of invasion of mainland.


Yes, sorry I mostly play with Dababes mod, so comment is not relevant to this discussion; DaBabes has made changes to the whole database, not only to Japan

These are DaBabes numbers:



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 2/13/2020 2:15:11 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 5:47:59 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Maybe that extra Finnish battalion used the reindeer sleighs?


Actually it was because of beards... Age and fitness level too

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 2/13/2020 5:48:42 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 6:06:00 PM   
Jorge_Stanbury


Posts: 4320
Joined: 2/29/2012
From: Toronto and Lima
Status: offline 		at least they didn't have to resort to "ear and stomach" battalions

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 15
RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 7:36:29 PM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		Reference the perceived issue with the British/Indian units, I’m assuming it is the change of some regular Divs to training Divs.
I remember one is 14th Indian Div. you don’t have to go past Wikipedia for the reason it’s TOE change reduces its size and fighting capability.
It’s not a mistake:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Indian_Infantry_Division

1st Burma, later 39th Indian is the other major TOE change
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/39th_Infantry_Division_(India)


< Message edited by jdsrae -- 2/13/2020 7:39:59 PM >

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RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/13/2020 8:25:49 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		Remember the monster US Army and Marine divisions sent to France in WWI? The French considered American divisional commanders to be the equivalent of their corps commanders.

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RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/14/2020 8:31:40 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

It's not repeating myself, I am repeating what the original writer wrote on youtube.

I posted this because I am curious myself about this reduction in firepower for Japanese (and some) Allied units.

It's too bad the Youtube poster didn't visit here - the official forum - to inquire!

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RE: Mistake in the database ? upgrade paths have been r... - 2/14/2020 10:01:21 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		Does anyone actually know exactly what unit/s he is referring to?

He could be talking about the Indian cavalry regiments that turn into tank transporter units, for all I know.

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